Recoil Reform
Battle-Bug
Join Date: 2010-02-11 Member: 70523Members
Join Date: 2010-02-11 Member: 70523Members
<div class="IPBDescription">3 different armor types and no difference in recoil?</div><b>Introduction:</b>
We have three armor types: heavy, jetpack, and normal marine. I noticed in NS1 that recoil is the same for all three. This is odd because we have one armor type that's strong and one that has no footing.
<b>
Please comment on which number (1 through 6) you like or dislike and some kind of suggestion and explanation.</b>
<b>Suggestion:</b>
<b>1.</b> Normal marines, although well trained, are shooting some big guns and some recoil should be present. The recoil in NS1 is almost negligible. The LMG's recoil was fine, but the HMG is a big, large caliber gun for a marine to handle without much recoil. Ever shoot a para M249 on another game? There's tons of recoil. This doesn't have to be a lot, but I believe there wasn't enough on NS1.
<b>2.</b> Jetpacks are an interesting case because they aren't on the ground when flying. I know that assault helicopters slow down when firing and even drift backwards if hovering still. I've been told by an Army veteran that the A-10 Warthog slows down <i>significantly </i>when firing its gatling gun. So, when jetpacks shoot, they should be forced back (a little bit). This means that they'll slow down if flying forward, drift back if hovering still, or go faster if flying backwards. Also, they should experience the same recoil as the normal marine, accuracy wise.
<b>3.</b> Heavy armor should have very low recoil on all weapons. The difference will be the most obvious on the HMG. If pistols have recoil, there should be a definite difference here.
<b>4.</b> All armor types should have less recoil when crouching. This is not only more realistic, but it gives an incentive to sit still instead of run around; a tactic rarely used in NS1.
<b>5.</b> All armor types could experience the same recoil propulsion as the jetpacks. We just have to be careful so that a marine can't jump much higher. If zero gravity is ever implemented (lets <b>not </b>discuss the possibility of zero gravity on this thread, please). It would be a way for a drifting (non-jp) marine to maneuver.
<b>6.</b> Running marines (non-heavy) run slower while firing, especially with higher recoil weapons. Do you think you could frantically/spastically run around while firing a 50 caliber machine gun? It aint no Nerf gun.
We have three armor types: heavy, jetpack, and normal marine. I noticed in NS1 that recoil is the same for all three. This is odd because we have one armor type that's strong and one that has no footing.
<b>
Please comment on which number (1 through 6) you like or dislike and some kind of suggestion and explanation.</b>
<b>Suggestion:</b>
<b>1.</b> Normal marines, although well trained, are shooting some big guns and some recoil should be present. The recoil in NS1 is almost negligible. The LMG's recoil was fine, but the HMG is a big, large caliber gun for a marine to handle without much recoil. Ever shoot a para M249 on another game? There's tons of recoil. This doesn't have to be a lot, but I believe there wasn't enough on NS1.
<b>2.</b> Jetpacks are an interesting case because they aren't on the ground when flying. I know that assault helicopters slow down when firing and even drift backwards if hovering still. I've been told by an Army veteran that the A-10 Warthog slows down <i>significantly </i>when firing its gatling gun. So, when jetpacks shoot, they should be forced back (a little bit). This means that they'll slow down if flying forward, drift back if hovering still, or go faster if flying backwards. Also, they should experience the same recoil as the normal marine, accuracy wise.
<b>3.</b> Heavy armor should have very low recoil on all weapons. The difference will be the most obvious on the HMG. If pistols have recoil, there should be a definite difference here.
<b>4.</b> All armor types should have less recoil when crouching. This is not only more realistic, but it gives an incentive to sit still instead of run around; a tactic rarely used in NS1.
<b>5.</b> All armor types could experience the same recoil propulsion as the jetpacks. We just have to be careful so that a marine can't jump much higher. If zero gravity is ever implemented (lets <b>not </b>discuss the possibility of zero gravity on this thread, please). It would be a way for a drifting (non-jp) marine to maneuver.
<b>6.</b> Running marines (non-heavy) run slower while firing, especially with higher recoil weapons. Do you think you could frantically/spastically run around while firing a 50 caliber machine gun? It aint no Nerf gun.
Comments
Realistic =/= better.
Realistic =/= better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
###### you i like his ideas.
Yes and its already quite clear that you want NS2: Modern Warfare as well.
It will slow down the game and remove the arcade playstyle I liked about NS1.
Also, remember there is no one shot headshot kill on an alien at the moment.
So hitting the first shot perfectly and not gaining a kill because recoil lets you miss the next 3 before the skulk reaches you is just frustrating.
I think recoil in a close combat game will make ambushes imcredible powerful, when the marine can only barely protect himself.
Probably explains why most of your posts make me want to headbutt my keyboard.
Thanks for the compliment.
Anyone have any specific suggestions or alternative ideas instead of a general like/dislike?
Edit:
<!--quoteo(post=1753189:date=Feb 14 2010, 06:03 PM:name=Kickchon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kickchon @ Feb 14 2010, 06:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1753189"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, remember there is no one shot headshot kill on an alien at the moment.
So hitting the first shot perfectly and not gaining a kill because recoil lets you miss the next 3 before the skulk reaches you is just frustrating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wasn't really going for headshot accuracy. I'm talking about the amount of spray. For example, if a normal marine has a shot grouping of 5 feet in diameter at 100 feet, then a heavy has 2.
Either it's gameplay relevant or it is not.
If it is not, i'd rather have different gameplay related things implemented than realism enhancing polishing.
The way you describe it, it needs to have influence on the standard marine, else there would be no advantage for the heavy.
Either it's gameplay relevant or it is not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It yields advantages and disadvantages with every type of marine (to enhance diversity). So it's not just about heavy being tougher to kill and jetpack being more mobile. Now, heavy is more accurate than the others and jetpack has some advantages/disadvantages with the recoil with respect to agility. Also, the crouching accuracy advantage will give an edge to those to aren't frantic.
<!--quoteo(post=1753202:date=Feb 14 2010, 07:58 PM:name=Kickchon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kickchon @ Feb 14 2010, 07:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1753202"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The way you describe it, it needs to have influence on the standard marine, else there would be no advantage for the heavy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1753174:date=Feb 14 2010, 04:41 PM:name=Battle-Bug)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Battle-Bug @ Feb 14 2010, 04:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1753174"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>1.</b> Normal marines, although well trained, <b>are shooting some big guns and some recoil should be present.</b> The recoil in NS1 is almost negligible. <b>The LMG's recoil was fine, but the HMG is a big, large caliber gun for a marine to handle without much recoil.</b> Ever shoot a para M249 on another game? There's tons of recoil. <b>This doesn't have to be a lot, but I believe there wasn't enough on NS1.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heavies will be more accurate than the others. They have some kind of hydraulic/pneumatic/electric suit that must come with a boost in strength. Thus, recoil absorption would make sense. The standard marine is just a regular G.I. Joe with a 25 pound machine gun spitting out 600 50 caliber rounds per minute. Same with jetpacks, but they get pushed around a bit in mid air because of the recoil.
Problem solved
(or to get more into it, Jet packs have awesome recoil compensation computers built in to constantly maintain stable flight. I mean, honestly, I can go all day here)
Or should we start talking about how realistic it is to have such mobile, practical jet packs in the real world in the first place?
This.
Increasing the DPS of HA over regular marines is a bad idea too. They are good because they give you more survivability. Now they're not only tanks which can outlast your assault but tanks with a big ###### off gun on that shoots 12 nukes a minute.
More on topic; why fix something that isn't broken?
Increasing the DPS of HA over regular marines is a bad idea too. They are good because they give you more survivability. Now they're not only tanks which can outlast your assault but tanks with a big ###### off gun on that shoots 12 nukes a minute.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, so you don't like #2 about jetpacks. However, you have #1 and #3 backwards. I don't really want to increase the accuracy of the HA by much, I want to decrease the accuracy of the normal marine as an incentive to upgrade. The current HMG recoil is basically fine for heavy, in my opinion.
You guys don't like to like them all or hate them all, you can pick and choose :)
<!--quoteo(post=1753227:date=Feb 15 2010, 01:50 AM:name=zh`)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zh` @ Feb 15 2010, 01:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1753227"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seems like Battle-Bug is FocusedWolfs new troll account.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not FocusedWolf (just look at my writing style) and I'm trying to be open and objective. I'm pitching an idea and you guys don't have to like it, but I'd appreciate a bit of courtesy. You basically just claimed that I am trolling when I've done nothing besides being objective. This in effect makes you troll and I'd appreciate it if we left all of the trolling, flaming, name calling, and finger pointing out of this thread. Thanks :)
<!--quoteo(post=1753227:date=Feb 15 2010, 01:50 AM:name=zh`)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zh` @ Feb 15 2010, 01:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1753227"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->More on topic; why fix something that isn't broken?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Variety.
You pro-khaara guys do realize that this will make the game a slight bit harder for marines, right?
We could add pink bunnies into the game for variety and it would have equally viable argumentation. As mentioned many times, change just for the sake of changing something doesn't work. There's a plenty of things in NS that don't work and need changing, but the core idea of NS firefights isn't flawed at all. It makes NS stand out from the crowd of semi-realistic tactical shooters like CoD, Rainbow Six, CS and DoD.
There is already research to reduce this effect.
Dont take the good things off from NS1 there has been already too much.
You can burst, but I'm not talking about blanketing your screen with bullet holes. I'm just saying that the full auto shot grouping circle be a bit higher for normal marines. Even if it is just a little bit.
If you wanted a Counter Strike analogy, think of a heavy with an HMG like using an MP5 (recoil wise) and a normal marine as having an AK-47.
Another reason, besides variety, is that this can influence what kinds of weapons people use. If HMG recoil is too much, you may want to use a shotgun. If you're a jetpack and a fade gets in your face, firing shotgun can give you some quick distance from the fade, so it will have a harder time swiping you.
Xeno in NS1 forced you back. Propulsive recoil is just the next step.
so, why the hell shouldn't we have found a way to completely compensate the little recoil of today in over 200 years of research?
I mean, we are working on weapons without Any recoil whatsoever, hell, we have such weapons. there are enough realistic games out in the market, there are many good games out there, go get them! but NS is NS, and shouldn't follow current trends for the sake of drawing in the wrong kind of audience. the audience of Modern warfare, Call of duty, Medal of honor or another Generic FPS Clone.
when was the last time you played a Retro game in HL style? with unlimited weapon carrying, speed, fun balanced weapon behaviour and intuitive, NEW, GOOD ideas? (excluding all Valve/sierra/Indie games )
1. It requires skill to use the weapons, and by doing so the devs are permitted to reward that skill with weapons that are more deadly (when aimed and fired correctly).
2. It's more "gritty", which i thought was the main guidelines for NS2 stuff.
3. Due to the damage boost offered in #1, guns are now useful in close quarters. When the enemy gets that close it's imperative that the weapon from ONE marine is capable of stopping anything they encounter (if there gun is good enough, and their aim and burst are controlled correctly, and they aim for the face). This has implications for lets say a server with 5 vs 5... in which case 3 or less marines in the field and one is the base monkey (unless they removed the need for base monkeys in NS2)... if their's NO WAY for 1 marine to take down a fade or onos... then there will be problems. Basically the aliens will steamroll the marines EVERY TIME which if i remember correctly was the biggest problem with NS1 being fun for the marine team also.
so, why the hell shouldn't we have found a way to completely compensate the little recoil of today in over 200 years of research?
I mean, we are working on weapons without Any recoil whatsoever, hell, we have such weapons. there are enough realistic games out in the market, there are many good games out there, go get them! but NS is NS, and shouldn't follow current trends for the sake of drawing in the wrong kind of audience. the audience of Modern warfare, Call of duty, Medal of honor or another Generic FPS Clone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If these were laser rifles and phaser pistols, I'd totally agree with you.
If you want 100% no recoil (recoilless) for all weapons, then start a thread and see how well it does :)
If we went with no recoil, then we'd have to have some other way of decreasing accuracy. For example, we can focus on how steady a marine can hold a weapon. As he breathe, it dips. As he runs around, it sways left and right. As a heavy walks, the gun dips down with each step. When a marine jumps, the crosshair goes all over the place. When a jetpack flies around, so do the crosshairs... We can start a thread on this topic if you would like to pursue it, but that is not the topic of this thread.
1. It requires skill to use the weapons, and by doing so the devs are permitted to reward that skill with weapons that are more deadly (when aimed and fired correctly).
2. It's more "gritty", which i thought was the main guidelines for NS2 stuff.
3. Due to the damage boost offered in #1, guns are now useful in close quarters. When the enemy gets that close it's imperative that the weapon from ONE marine is capable of stopping anything they encounter (if there gun is good enough, and their aim and burst are controlled correctly, and they aim for the face). This has implications for lets say a server with 5 vs 5... in which case 3 or less marines in the field and one is the base monkey (unless they removed the need for base monkeys in NS2)... if their's NO WAY for 1 marine to take down a fade or onos... then there will be problems. Basically the aliens will steamroll the marines EVERY TIME which if i remember correctly was the biggest problem with NS1 being fun for the marine team also.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
STOP. Just stop.
If you want 100% no recoil (recoilless) for all weapons, then start a thread and see how well it does :)
If we went with no recoil, then we'd have to have some other way of decreasing accuracy. For example, we can focus on how steady a marine can hold a weapon. As he breathe, it dips. As he runs around, it sways left and right. As a heavy walks, the gun dips down with each step. When a marine jumps, the crosshair goes all over the place. When a jetpack flies around, so do the crosshairs... We can start a thread on this topic if you would like to pursue it, but that is not the topic of this thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The aliens are mobile, it's one of their big features. If you sit still you will die. If you move then it is down to the marine to match your level of movement skill with their aim. Recoil is bad.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't really want to increase the accuracy of the HA by much, I want to decrease the accuracy of the normal marine as an incentive to upgrade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So effectively setting the standard to X dps for a basic marine and then having HA increase dps by Y. In non-NS1 terms, it is exactly that, and it can't really be related back to NS1 anyway.
As far as backstory goes: In NS1, the TSA had developed nearly perfect weapons, as far as recoil is concerned. Why in the world would they downgrade in the middle of an arms race with the Kharra?
What do you mean? What downgrade? The commander isn't researching the "more recoil" ability :)
Speaking of which, we could make "less-recoil" a skill that can be researched as an upgrade, so we can have more recoil and less in the same game. Just putting that out there...