<!--quoteo(post=1757038:date=Mar 4 2010, 06:01 PM:name=Spetsnaz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Spetsnaz @ Mar 4 2010, 06:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757038"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok so you think counter strike would also benefit also from an Achievement system? If im going to play a game once ive purchased it I will want to try and get good at it, the game should be all about content and strive to get players to work together (basing this on a team game ofc) using the game itself not some achievement list. Using an Achievement list to suggest players that doing something will get a reward for doing that certain thing, however that reward should be within the game itself not this listed achievement. for example setting a tank on fire in L4D, this is a good idea because the tank will die no matter what now. However the player doing this needs the Achievement and will now do anything to get it because he/she must have this achievement because it is oh so improtant. So this player (not caring for his team mates around him/her) proceeds to set the tank on fire with a molitov or gas can but has done it so there is not escape for the rest of his/hers teammates because the player has just cut off their only exit. Achievements only popped up once consoles started doing it now every game dev out there must jump on the bangwagon to enhance their game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But that's just your personal preference about achievements which you're then arrogantly using against achievement-hunters to to speak. You don't like playing for achievements, fine. I'm the same, I don't really care for them, I'm only interested in core gameplay. But others do care for them, but it doesn't mean they automatically have zero interest in the core gameplay. You do a disservice to other people who like to play the same game but enjoy it in a slightly different way. I don't think it's fair on other gamers for you to be generalising them into a single box where they're all spastics or something unable to learn the game "normally" and can only robotically follow a list of achievements. From my experience, those gamers who like to get achievements tend to be the better players, because they happen to be players get get deep enough into the game to bother with achievements.
<!--quoteo(post=1757038:date=Mar 4 2010, 06:01 PM:name=Spetsnaz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Spetsnaz @ Mar 4 2010, 06:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757038"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It made me sick when I was looking forward to MW2, while watching a video where the dev was plugging the game he rattled on about how the new ahcievements were going to be awesome("just trust us" was my favourite comment) and didnt really want to talk about much else. They (game devs) seem to think an achievement system is a means to an end, but its not. Who wants to buy a god awful half finished game for (depending on the platform) 30 to 60 pounds BUT wait guys it comes with an achievement list because we couldnt be arsed to improve how the game plays or add more content, But we will add more half assed content when the DLC comes out which you will have to pay more money for!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But you're using InfinityWards as a counter-example for achievements, when we all know that IW are a pretty horrible company when it comes to servicing the needs of their community. Valve for example have achievements in their games, but there's no push towards turning those games into console equivalents from them. Achievements and DLC are completely seperate things, so it seems like the issue here is that you're afriad that achievements = step towards console gaming. Why? As stated, the top PC FPS games are now coming with achievements as standard.
<!--quoteo(post=1757038:date=Mar 4 2010, 06:01 PM:name=Spetsnaz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Spetsnaz @ Mar 4 2010, 06:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757038"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I will admit I dont like consoles now that PC gaming is being slowly turned into the same thing. First achievements and DLC, we are also seeing lack of dedicated servers and after release support for games that should still attract a pc gamer to them that are months old but we are slowly seeing this in newer releases of different games. Again the lack of mod support for game titles that are being released is killing off possible future talented game artists and designers. What im trying to say is Game Developers and Publishers (the big ones anyway) have "forgotten the face of their farthers" (10 points to anyone who can name the quote).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really don't see how this is relevant to achievements. You're making massive leaps of logic here. If UWE want to turn into a console games development company, then that's what they'll do. Including achievements that enhance game replayability isn't going to be some sort of launchpad for them turning NS into a console gaming franchise with no dedicated server or modding support.
<!--quoteo(post=1757038:date=Mar 4 2010, 06:01 PM:name=Spetsnaz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Spetsnaz @ Mar 4 2010, 06:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757038"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I did state that my point was extremely blunt and was hoping for a resonable response but it seems i may of hoped for too much. But again I try to see things with an open mind, way up the pros and cons, with certain games and achievement systems only tick the cons imho.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stating your opinion is blunt doesn't mean it's right, or that it's not open to criticism. My beef with your post was the comment "achievements are the BANE of gaming", which is simply utter rubbish and complete exaggeration, as though achievements have ruined more games than hackers, bad connections, abusive players/spammers, etc etc. Since you obviously disagree, I'd normally ask you to give examples of games where you've played that "achievement hunters" have ruined for you, but my guess is you'd not be able to come up with any without making those examples up.
<!--quoteo(post=1757038:date=Mar 4 2010, 06:01 PM:name=Spetsnaz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Spetsnaz @ Mar 4 2010, 06:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757038"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Question are your friends PC gamers? Do they play any mmos if they are? Do they dabble in modding of any games? Like ive said above i purchase a game based on its content and depth not on an achievement list. The original half life didnt have an achievement system, it just had an awesome story, fun to play and of course NS was spawned from it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have two sets of gaming friends, both on PC through steam and on the 360. Some play MMO, yes. One dabbles in modding. The best gamers out of both my friends lists all like to complete achievements, and these guys regularly top TF2, BC2, MW2 servers as well as being excellent L4D players. That's why I get annoyed when reading degrading posts about how players going for achievements are retards or something - in my experience, it's the exact opposite.
None of them purchased a game based on an achievements list, it's always going to be game reviews and community reviews that will entice a purchase, but the point in this thread from the start has been that achievements can add replayability and added fun to a game that is already fun and competitive. If NS2 appeals to more players, it'll get better community and industry reviews.
As for the original half-life, as per my previous post, that's a dead game now. The gaming world has moved on. All of the top games are being produced with achievements. If Half Life 1 were made today, it'd include achievements, none of which would detract in any way from the game itself (which is why all of the top games have achievements now as standard).
<!--quoteo(post=1757038:date=Mar 4 2010, 06:01 PM:name=Spetsnaz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Spetsnaz @ Mar 4 2010, 06:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757038"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would like to see and example of these achievements from you and how it would work in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By a "well engineered achievement", I mean something that isn't going to encourage kamikaze gameplay. Let's say 10,000 kills as an Onos, 500 marines devoured, protect 6 Kharaa teammates with the Lerk, primal scream teammates attacking the marine console 10 times, so on and so forth. UWE could easily come up with a list of well thought out achievements that won't change anything for those who don't like to achievement hunt.
<!--quoteo(post=1757282:date=Mar 5 2010, 09:19 AM:name=Nyu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nyu @ Mar 5 2010, 09:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757282"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Kwil, Robin, Cyanide - Just to mention a few pro-achivements.
Ever read or heard the quote "You can give an idiot wisdom, but he will never learn to think for himself" ? Something should differ in skills, let it alone be your aiming or your brain? Achievements are silly imho, sure they can be fun and everything, but dind't we all have fun before achivements were introduced to games? CS, Tribes2, Quake, UT? Insted of striving towards getting some achievements we perfected our skills, wheter it be rocket jumping, headshotting or flying a transporter..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I read this like one of those <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRI-A3vakVg" target="_blank">motivational speeches set to music</a>. I shed a tear man. People just don't get good gameplay. Gamers today (and I use the term lightly) don't understand that a game doesn't need bells and whistles and can truly be complete with simply a handful of weapons and a unique movement system driven by rock-solid core game-play.
@Rob: no dice, that's an obvious one - attempt to bail or switch sides before losing. If you think people care about losing a "complete" you haven't seen Starcraft Battle.net profiles.
@rofldinho: Games aren't moving on, they're moving <i>down</i> like every thing that gets corrupted when it goes mainstream. EA started on the PC once upon a time, I suppose you considered they "moved up" to console? Console and casual gaming has fed our industry to the cretinous masses and we, the true gamers who were there to see it begin, are left chewed up and spit out by companies who prefer to cater to the ADD crowd who beckon at their every whim. Maybe I'm just a sentimental curmudgeon, but rather than refute everything that is wrong with casual gaming including the tip of the iceberg that is achievements, I will direct your attention here: <a href="http://pcgamingcorner.com/wordpress/?p=1851" target="_blank">http://pcgamingcorner.com/wordpress/?p=1851</a> Read it. If you do not see the problem after that, feel free to PM me or take it OT.
edit: in response to your "well-engineered achievement" see the predictions I made earlier. There is no "easy" achievement list, if there were we'd have one by now that wasn't obviously susceptible to abuse (and everyone of those you mentioned has been openly refuted in this thread). The more arbitrary conditions you "engineer" the more closely you're attempting to simulate gameplay when instead you should be letting gameplay simulate gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=1757281:date=Mar 5 2010, 03:19 PM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Mar 5 2010, 03:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757281"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->there shall be only one achievement, awarded when you join a team: <b>Played %v complete games, won %w</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To anyone opposed to achievements because you feel its going to ruin your game are simply wrong, and anyone who is opposed in that sense is bringing with them a more important factor. You really don't care about the success of NS2. If you ever want NS2 to be more, you need to stop being selfish, immediately. NS2 is a shot in the dark, a fresh start, and something very important to 5 specific people's lives. If this doesn't succeed it effects those people quite a bit more than your "OH MAH GODZ THESE NUBZ LIKE ACHIVEMNTZ STUPID CONSLER GAMRS". Cut it. Because you play PC games does not make you better. It's just ridiculous.
NS2 needs commercial success. Achievements help this. And I will even say I DON'T agree with TF2's achievement system, it's not good. It promotes farming for an edge because its tied to an unlock system. If it wasn't, it'd be fine. The doomsday saying about lack of teamwork is pretty laughable. You really don't understand do you. It's incredibly minor the people that will actually end up "hurting" your playing experience. But you latch onto this like some kind of parasite through your "CORRECT" beliefs because frankly, you're selfish and don't understand the bigger picture. Things are not black and white, like Kwil said.
If you refuse to play NS2 because it has achievements, we don't care. You are not a benefit to the community. You are simply dragging it down. NS2 is attempting to be big, you are not bigger than it. If you and your 50 friends don't want to play, great. 200 will fill your place. And more importantly, it's a case of the L4D2 and MW2 boycott all over again. 200,000 people boycotted. 150,000 still bought the game.
Once again, if achievements are made properly they add another level to a game that will help its sales, create a unique accomplishment system for NS2, and bolster peoples love for the game which breeds recommendation. The thing the devs care more about than people whining in this thread.
<!--quoteo(post=1757293:date=Mar 5 2010, 10:46 AM:name=Cyanide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cyanide @ Mar 5 2010, 10:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757293"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To anyone opposed to achievements because you feel its going to ruin your game are simply wrong, and anyone who is opposed in that sense is bringing with them a more important factor. You really don't care about the success of NS2. If you ever want NS2 to be more, you need to stop being selfish, immediately. NS2 is a shot in the dark, a fresh start, and something very important to 5 specific people's lives. If this doesn't succeed it effects those people quite a bit more than your "OH MAH GODZ THESE NUBZ LIKE ACHIVEMNTZ STUPID CONSLER GAMRS". Cut it. Because you play PC games does not make you better. It's just ridiculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fallacy #2 - appeal to emotion.
I don't know what you think this is, but unless you're related by blood somehow, it isn't a family. I like Charlie & Co. because they are a talented crew who delivered a truly amazing game through sheer will power. I will continue to like them so long as they do this. How you find this selfish considering that our primary relationship to UWE is consumer shows your lack of business prowess.
We all get that funds are critical, but where you draw the line on how you get said funds is what defines you as a developer. If UWE are in such dire need I assure you beyond any delusional fantasy that lack of achievements is not going to be the bill that breaks the financial camel's back. And as a developer who has a reputation to maintain I am positive UWE will first explore every other avenue before attempting to yield towards casual interests (as Cory has stated previously they're primarily making a game <i>they</i> would want to enjoy themselves).
If UWE came out tomorrow and claimed dire financial crises and that NS2 would need to appeal to the mass market in order to stave off bankruptcy, we'd all understand - no love loss. And if they could somehow guarantee it would result in a proper NS3, that's fine, I'll see you in a few years.
But this is not the case, and you are forcing a false dichotomy between funds and pandering to achievement-getters. A playerbase whom you know will not bolster this community in any good way; UWE would be better to suffer any temporary financial loss then to risk injuring their sole reason for existence and their first born brain child.
<!--quoteo(post=1757282:date=Mar 5 2010, 05:19 PM:name=Nyu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nyu @ Mar 5 2010, 05:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757282"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Insted of striving towards getting some achievements we perfected our skills, wheter it be rocket jumping, headshotting or flying a transporter..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No one's advocating replacing skillz with achievements, achievements are a new layer on top of the game itself.
<!--quoteo(post=1757281:date=Mar 5 2010, 05:19 PM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Mar 5 2010, 05:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757281"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->there shall be only one achievement, awarded when you join a team: <b>Played %v complete games, won %w</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't want random idiots joining servers just to play the game. It encourages playtime grinding. Boo.
<!--quoteo(post=1757293:date=Mar 5 2010, 06:46 PM:name=Cyanide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cyanide @ Mar 5 2010, 06:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757293"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To anyone opposed to achievements because you feel its going to ruin your game are simply wrong, and anyone who is opposed in that sense is bringing with them a more important factor. You really don't care about the success of NS2. If you ever want NS2 to be more, you need to stop being selfish, immediately. NS2 is a shot in the dark, a fresh start, and something very important to 5 specific people's lives. If this doesn't succeed it effects those people quite a bit more than your "OH MAH GODZ THESE NUBZ LIKE ACHIVEMNTZ STUPID CONSLER GAMRS". Cut it. Because you play PC games does not make you better. It's just ridiculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <3
A product's a product, but it doesn't make NS2 any less of a conception of few lovely people who simply enjoy doing what they do. Have a heart indeed.
Personally I would rather see UW selling hats or whatever if it keeps self-righteous conservatives at bay (the other conservatives, for you from US).
I don't know what you think this is, but unless you're related by blood somehow, it isn't a family. I like Charlie & Co. because they are a talented crew who delivered a truly amazing game through sheer will power. I will continue to like them so long as they do this. How you find this selfish considering that our primary relationship to UWE is consumer shows your lack of business prowess.
We all get that funds are critical, but where you draw the line on how you get said funds is what defines you as a developer. If UWE are in such dire need I assure you beyond any delusional fantasy that lack of achievements is not going to be the bill that breaks the financial camel's back. And as a developer who has a reputation to maintain I am positive UWE will first explore every other avenue before attempting to yield towards casual interests (as Cory has stated previously they're primarily making a game <i>they</i> would want to enjoy themselves).
If UWE came out tomorrow and claimed dire financial crises and that NS2 would need to appeal to the mass market in order to stave off bankruptcy, we'd all understand - no love loss. And if they could somehow guarantee it would result in a proper NS3, that's fine, I'll see you in a few years.
But this is not the case, and you are forcing a false dichotomy between funds and pandering to achievement-getters. A playerbase whom you know will not bolster this community in any good way; UWE would be better to suffer any temporary financial loss then to risk injuring their sole reason for existence and their first born brain child.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Renegade, your post is literally laughable. NS2 is a business as much as a pleasure for UWE. You do NOT make games to not make them as successful as they can be. And yes, NS2 DOES NEED TO APPEAL TO THE MASS MARKET. It literally must for the ambition of UWE to work. The fact that you think this ISN'T UWE's gameplan is just niave. UWE has stated they want to be a AAA studio. To become a AAA studio you sell millions of copies of games. You do things that appeal to media. You make a game that is lovable to the majority of people. You do not cater to people whining about how they don't get to enjoy their "elite low budget special game" that you seem to have this fantasy with involving NS2.
And once again you're honestly trying to fight the point that achievements don't build that much success in sales, when you are just so wrong. It's been proven, COUNTLESS TIMES, that it has helped over the course of it's introduction millions and millions of game titles.
It's also incredibly hypocritical of you to honestly try to tell me my theory is lacking business prowess when you are sitting here in essence, preaching about how you want NS2 to be a core game, not a mass market game, not dumbed down by these "inane and useless and detrimental features" that console games and mass market games have.
Grow up. You are not important in the grand scheme and neither am I. But what is important is the shape of this game, which you apparently are completely clueless about. This "indie" game has over 10,000 preorders. It will be a mainstream success now with steam. It has the ability to compete on a niche level like TF2. And 90% of TF2 players are casual. Your hardcore importance means jack in the grand. If you want NS2 to be your perfect game, then you might as well hand in the towel. If you want NS2 to be a great success and to build through the future, then start looking at gaming as a business as well. Because that IS what it is. And no one EVER said you can't have both fun and business. It's people like yourself that create this ridiculous barrier between fun and profit. You need to open your mind and embrace ALL of gaming, console and the like. Otherwise you just sound like another PC or Console elitist who is just laughable.
<!--quoteo(post=1757306:date=Mar 5 2010, 07:19 PM:name=Cyanide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cyanide @ Mar 5 2010, 07:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757306"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[...]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with every single word of your post.
Seriously, I've gone like three times through it to make sure, and that is literally true. What did you do?..
Just to add, I can only repeat what I've said before: don't try to reason with Renegade, your nerves will thank you for it. Oh and, I'm sure we'll be able to think of something once we know how the game plays out it more detail - assuming UW doesn't beat us to it - there's got to be room for achievements that are both fun and productive.
Thanks Draco. I don't intend to continue. I believe I expressed to the best I can my beliefs and it's up to whomever to take it how they want. I do want to say that I love NS. I've been playing this game for over 8 years, and working first hand with Charlie and Cory 8 years ago during alpha testing on NS, I can tell you that these two deserve every bit of success for the amount of effort they are putting in. Charlie quit his job to focus on NS fulltime living off savings and eventual donations through constellation. The sheer amount of polish in NS2 is mindblowing for such a small team. This is humble, dedicated, incredible talent that needs to be frontrunners in the industry in my opinion.
I know I won't love every facet of NS2's gameplay, but I have enough faith to know I will love the game as a whole and ultimately want to see it succeed.
It's really rather amusing how being commercial or non-commercial instantly shifts our perspective on things. If it's the latter, every error is forgiven because it's free... And if it's the prior, it's positively a soulless money-grabbing scheme that should adhere to your every whim for the fear of being sued. Amusing, but not at all unexpected. Good old Capitalism...
I think it should indeed be quite evident that UW aren't working on NS2 just for the sake of money, they just happen to need it, as we all do. Let's not forget that.
<!--quoteo(post=1757307:date=Mar 5 2010, 11:25 AM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Mar 5 2010, 11:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757307"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->veiled drivel / feigned agreement<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A by-proxy didn't work for the Soviets in the '60s, it'll no more work for a petty amateur on a forum.
<!--quoteo(post=1757306:date=Mar 5 2010, 11:19 AM:name=Cyanide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cyanide @ Mar 5 2010, 11:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757306"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Renegade, your post is literally laughable. ... It's been proven, COUNTLESS TIMES, that it has helped over the course of it's introduction millions and millions of game titles. ... Grow up .... PC or Console elitist who is just laughable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh where to start: appeal to ridicule, proof without evidence, CRUISE CONTROL, gross exaggeration, oh an ad hominem! And look, there's that "laughable" again. Why I even bother trudging through such dreary argument must eternally perplex you given you've established that I care nothing for this community, game, its future etcetera. Even I tire to address the entirety of the post you spend placing words in my mouth, suffice to say attempt later (or not at all) when you're with even an ounce of logic.
Realize I am just and more so than you aware of the business needs of UWE but also acknowledge the <b>gaming</b> needs a that <u>gaming</u> company ought have first and foremost. After all, it is what brought them into the industry - <b>gaming is their enterprise</b>. So long as that fact is recognized, I have complete faith that UWE will do what they feel best promotes their guiding principle.
<!--quoteo(post=1757306:date=Mar 5 2010, 11:19 AM:name=Cyanide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cyanide @ Mar 5 2010, 11:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757306"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Renegade, your post is literally laughable. NS2 is a business as much as a pleasure for UWE. You do NOT make games to not make them as successful as they can be. And yes, NS2 DOES NEED TO APPEAL TO THE MASS MARKET. It literally must for the ambition of UWE to work. The fact that you think this ISN'T UWE's gameplan is just niave. UWE has stated they want to be a AAA studio. To become a AAA studio you sell millions of copies of games. You do things that appeal to media. You make a game that is lovable to the majority of people. You do not cater to people whining about how they don't get to enjoy their "elite low budget special game" that you seem to have this fantasy with involving NS2.
And once again you're honestly trying to fight the point that achievements don't build that much success in sales, when you are just so wrong. It's been proven, COUNTLESS TIMES, that it has helped over the course of it's introduction millions and millions of game titles.
It's also incredibly hypocritical of you to honestly try to tell me my theory is lacking business prowess when you are sitting here in essence, preaching about how you want NS2 to be a core game, not a mass market game, not dumbed down by these "inane and useless and detrimental features" that console games and mass market games have.
Grow up. You are not important in the grand scheme and neither am I. But what is important is the shape of this game, which you apparently are completely clueless about. This "indie" game has over 10,000 preorders. It will be a mainstream success now with steam. It has the ability to compete on a niche level like TF2. And 90% of TF2 players are casual. Your hardcore importance means jack in the grand. If you want NS2 to be your perfect game, then you might as well hand in the towel. If you want NS2 to be a great success and to build through the future, then start looking at gaming as a business as well. Because that IS what it is. And no one EVER said you can't have both fun and business. It's people like yourself that create this ridiculous barrier between fun and profit. You need to open your mind and embrace ALL of gaming, console and the like. Otherwise you just sound like another PC or Console elitist who is just laughable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well said. Reminds me of when I used to be violently opposed to console games before I started to take my future career in game development seriously.
It's kinda amusing to see people comparing "Console games" to "PC games" as if there's some difference beyond the medium being used. Reminiscent of the old dim-witted stereotype as in comparing reading books to TV/Internet, actually.
More to the point, Achievements are as viable on PC as they are on any console. Since NS2 uses Steamworks, there are few reasons to assume we won't see 'em.
It's really no longer amusing to see people have such poor grasp of what stagnant hardware architecture and inferior input/output devices can do to the growth of an industry catering to said hardware. There are those with knowledge who disseminate it and those who simply feign it through woefully inept analogies.
Achievements are as viable in NS as RTS gameplay is in TF2. There are many reasons to assume we won't see them: precisely one for each achievement. And if there are not, there is exactly one reason to assume that <i>I</i> won't be seeing them.
Comments
But that's just your personal preference about achievements which you're then arrogantly using against achievement-hunters to to speak. You don't like playing for achievements, fine. I'm the same, I don't really care for them, I'm only interested in core gameplay. But others do care for them, but it doesn't mean they automatically have zero interest in the core gameplay. You do a disservice to other people who like to play the same game but enjoy it in a slightly different way. I don't think it's fair on other gamers for you to be generalising them into a single box where they're all spastics or something unable to learn the game "normally" and can only robotically follow a list of achievements. From my experience, those gamers who like to get achievements tend to be the better players, because they happen to be players get get deep enough into the game to bother with achievements.
<!--quoteo(post=1757038:date=Mar 4 2010, 06:01 PM:name=Spetsnaz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Spetsnaz @ Mar 4 2010, 06:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757038"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It made me sick when I was looking forward to MW2, while watching a video where the dev was plugging the game he rattled on about how the new ahcievements were going to be awesome("just trust us" was my favourite comment) and didnt really want to talk about much else. They (game devs) seem to think an achievement system is a means to an end, but its not. Who wants to buy a god awful half finished game for (depending on the platform) 30 to 60 pounds BUT wait guys it comes with an achievement list because we couldnt be arsed to improve how the game plays or add more content, But we will add more half assed content when the DLC comes out which you will have to pay more money for!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But you're using InfinityWards as a counter-example for achievements, when we all know that IW are a pretty horrible company when it comes to servicing the needs of their community. Valve for example have achievements in their games, but there's no push towards turning those games into console equivalents from them. Achievements and DLC are completely seperate things, so it seems like the issue here is that you're afriad that achievements = step towards console gaming. Why? As stated, the top PC FPS games are now coming with achievements as standard.
<!--quoteo(post=1757038:date=Mar 4 2010, 06:01 PM:name=Spetsnaz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Spetsnaz @ Mar 4 2010, 06:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757038"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I will admit I dont like consoles now that PC gaming is being slowly turned into the same thing. First achievements and DLC, we are also seeing lack of dedicated servers and after release support for games that should still attract a pc gamer to them that are months old but we are slowly seeing this in newer releases of different games. Again the lack of mod support for game titles that are being released is killing off possible future talented game artists and designers. What im trying to say is Game Developers and Publishers (the big ones anyway) have "forgotten the face of their farthers" (10 points to anyone who can name the quote).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really don't see how this is relevant to achievements. You're making massive leaps of logic here. If UWE want to turn into a console games development company, then that's what they'll do. Including achievements that enhance game replayability isn't going to be some sort of launchpad for them turning NS into a console gaming franchise with no dedicated server or modding support.
<!--quoteo(post=1757038:date=Mar 4 2010, 06:01 PM:name=Spetsnaz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Spetsnaz @ Mar 4 2010, 06:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757038"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I did state that my point was extremely blunt and was hoping for a resonable response but it seems i may of hoped for too much. But again I try to see things with an open mind, way up the pros and cons, with certain games and achievement systems only tick the cons imho.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stating your opinion is blunt doesn't mean it's right, or that it's not open to criticism. My beef with your post was the comment "achievements are the BANE of gaming", which is simply utter rubbish and complete exaggeration, as though achievements have ruined more games than hackers, bad connections, abusive players/spammers, etc etc. Since you obviously disagree, I'd normally ask you to give examples of games where you've played that "achievement hunters" have ruined for you, but my guess is you'd not be able to come up with any without making those examples up.
<!--quoteo(post=1757038:date=Mar 4 2010, 06:01 PM:name=Spetsnaz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Spetsnaz @ Mar 4 2010, 06:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757038"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Question are your friends PC gamers? Do they play any mmos if they are? Do they dabble in modding of any games? Like ive said above i purchase a game based on its content and depth not on an achievement list. The original half life didnt have an achievement system, it just had an awesome story, fun to play and of course NS was spawned from it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have two sets of gaming friends, both on PC through steam and on the 360. Some play MMO, yes. One dabbles in modding. The best gamers out of both my friends lists all like to complete achievements, and these guys regularly top TF2, BC2, MW2 servers as well as being excellent L4D players. That's why I get annoyed when reading degrading posts about how players going for achievements are retards or something - in my experience, it's the exact opposite.
None of them purchased a game based on an achievements list, it's always going to be game reviews and community reviews that will entice a purchase, but the point in this thread from the start has been that achievements can add replayability and added fun to a game that is already fun and competitive. If NS2 appeals to more players, it'll get better community and industry reviews.
As for the original half-life, as per my previous post, that's a dead game now. The gaming world has moved on. All of the top games are being produced with achievements. If Half Life 1 were made today, it'd include achievements, none of which would detract in any way from the game itself (which is why all of the top games have achievements now as standard).
<!--quoteo(post=1757038:date=Mar 4 2010, 06:01 PM:name=Spetsnaz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Spetsnaz @ Mar 4 2010, 06:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757038"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would like to see and example of these achievements from you and how it would work in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By a "well engineered achievement", I mean something that isn't going to encourage kamikaze gameplay. Let's say 10,000 kills as an Onos, 500 marines devoured, protect 6 Kharaa teammates with the Lerk, primal scream teammates attacking the marine console 10 times, so on and so forth. UWE could easily come up with a list of well thought out achievements that won't change anything for those who don't like to achievement hunt.
Ever read or heard the quote "You can give an idiot wisdom, but he will never learn to think for himself" ?
Something should differ in skills, let it alone be your aiming or your brain?
Achievements are silly imho, sure they can be fun and everything, but dind't we all have fun before achivements were introduced to games? CS, Tribes2, Quake, UT?
Insted of striving towards getting some achievements we perfected our skills, wheter it be rocket jumping, headshotting or flying a transporter..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I read this like one of those <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRI-A3vakVg" target="_blank">motivational speeches set to music</a>. I shed a tear man. People just don't get good gameplay. Gamers today (and I use the term lightly) don't understand that a game doesn't need bells and whistles and can truly be complete with simply a handful of weapons and a unique movement system driven by rock-solid core game-play.
@Rob: no dice, that's an obvious one - attempt to bail or switch sides before losing. If you think people care about losing a "complete" you haven't seen Starcraft Battle.net profiles.
@rofldinho: Games aren't moving on, they're moving <i>down</i> like every thing that gets corrupted when it goes mainstream. EA started on the PC once upon a time, I suppose you considered they "moved up" to console? Console and casual gaming has fed our industry to the cretinous masses and we, the true gamers who were there to see it begin, are left chewed up and spit out by companies who prefer to cater to the ADD crowd who beckon at their every whim. Maybe I'm just a sentimental curmudgeon, but rather than refute everything that is wrong with casual gaming including the tip of the iceberg that is achievements, I will direct your attention here: <a href="http://pcgamingcorner.com/wordpress/?p=1851" target="_blank">http://pcgamingcorner.com/wordpress/?p=1851</a>
Read it. If you do not see the problem after that, feel free to PM me or take it OT.
edit: in response to your "well-engineered achievement" see the predictions I made earlier. There is no "easy" achievement list, if there were we'd have one by now that wasn't obviously susceptible to abuse (and everyone of those you mentioned has been openly refuted in this thread). The more arbitrary conditions you "engineer" the more closely you're attempting to simulate gameplay when instead you should be letting gameplay simulate gameplay.
This encourages griefing.
NS2 needs commercial success. Achievements help this. And I will even say I DON'T agree with TF2's achievement system, it's not good. It promotes farming for an edge because its tied to an unlock system. If it wasn't, it'd be fine. The doomsday saying about lack of teamwork is pretty laughable. You really don't understand do you. It's incredibly minor the people that will actually end up "hurting" your playing experience. But you latch onto this like some kind of parasite through your "CORRECT" beliefs because frankly, you're selfish and don't understand the bigger picture. Things are not black and white, like Kwil said.
If you refuse to play NS2 because it has achievements, we don't care. You are not a benefit to the community. You are simply dragging it down. NS2 is attempting to be big, you are not bigger than it. If you and your 50 friends don't want to play, great. 200 will fill your place. And more importantly, it's a case of the L4D2 and MW2 boycott all over again. 200,000 people boycotted. 150,000 still bought the game.
Once again, if achievements are made properly they add another level to a game that will help its sales, create a unique accomplishment system for NS2, and bolster peoples love for the game which breeds recommendation. The thing the devs care more about than people whining in this thread.
Fallacy #2 - appeal to emotion.
I don't know what you think this is, but unless you're related by blood somehow, it isn't a family. I like Charlie & Co. because they are a talented crew who delivered a truly amazing game through sheer will power. I will continue to like them so long as they do this. How you find this selfish considering that our primary relationship to UWE is consumer shows your lack of business prowess.
We all get that funds are critical, but where you draw the line on how you get said funds is what defines you as a developer. If UWE are in such dire need I assure you beyond any delusional fantasy that lack of achievements is not going to be the bill that breaks the financial camel's back. And as a developer who has a reputation to maintain I am positive UWE will first explore every other avenue before attempting to yield towards casual interests (as Cory has stated previously they're primarily making a game <i>they</i> would want to enjoy themselves).
If UWE came out tomorrow and claimed dire financial crises and that NS2 would need to appeal to the mass market in order to stave off bankruptcy, we'd all understand - no love loss. And if they could somehow guarantee it would result in a proper NS3, that's fine, I'll see you in a few years.
But this is not the case, and you are forcing a false dichotomy between funds and pandering to achievement-getters. A playerbase whom you know will not bolster this community in any good way; UWE would be better to suffer any temporary financial loss then to risk injuring their sole reason for existence and their first born brain child.
No one's advocating replacing skillz with achievements, achievements are a new layer on top of the game itself.
<!--quoteo(post=1757281:date=Mar 5 2010, 05:19 PM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Mar 5 2010, 05:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757281"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->there shall be only one achievement, awarded when you join a team: <b>Played %v complete games, won %w</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't want random idiots joining servers just to play the game. It encourages playtime grinding. Boo.
<!--quoteo(post=1757293:date=Mar 5 2010, 06:46 PM:name=Cyanide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cyanide @ Mar 5 2010, 06:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757293"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To anyone opposed to achievements because you feel its going to ruin your game are simply wrong, and anyone who is opposed in that sense is bringing with them a more important factor. You really don't care about the success of NS2. If you ever want NS2 to be more, you need to stop being selfish, immediately. NS2 is a shot in the dark, a fresh start, and something very important to 5 specific people's lives. If this doesn't succeed it effects those people quite a bit more than your "OH MAH GODZ THESE NUBZ LIKE ACHIVEMNTZ STUPID CONSLER GAMRS". Cut it. Because you play PC games does not make you better. It's just ridiculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<3
A product's a product, but it doesn't make NS2 any less of a conception of few lovely people who simply enjoy doing what they do. Have a heart indeed.
Personally I would rather see UW selling hats or whatever if it keeps self-righteous conservatives at bay (the other conservatives, for you from US).
I don't know what you think this is, but unless you're related by blood somehow, it isn't a family. I like Charlie & Co. because they are a talented crew who delivered a truly amazing game through sheer will power. I will continue to like them so long as they do this. How you find this selfish considering that our primary relationship to UWE is consumer shows your lack of business prowess.
We all get that funds are critical, but where you draw the line on how you get said funds is what defines you as a developer. If UWE are in such dire need I assure you beyond any delusional fantasy that lack of achievements is not going to be the bill that breaks the financial camel's back. And as a developer who has a reputation to maintain I am positive UWE will first explore every other avenue before attempting to yield towards casual interests (as Cory has stated previously they're primarily making a game <i>they</i> would want to enjoy themselves).
If UWE came out tomorrow and claimed dire financial crises and that NS2 would need to appeal to the mass market in order to stave off bankruptcy, we'd all understand - no love loss. And if they could somehow guarantee it would result in a proper NS3, that's fine, I'll see you in a few years.
But this is not the case, and you are forcing a false dichotomy between funds and pandering to achievement-getters. A playerbase whom you know will not bolster this community in any good way; UWE would be better to suffer any temporary financial loss then to risk injuring their sole reason for existence and their first born brain child.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Renegade, your post is literally laughable. NS2 is a business as much as a pleasure for UWE. You do NOT make games to not make them as successful as they can be. And yes, NS2 DOES NEED TO APPEAL TO THE MASS MARKET. It literally must for the ambition of UWE to work. The fact that you think this ISN'T UWE's gameplan is just niave. UWE has stated they want to be a AAA studio. To become a AAA studio you sell millions of copies of games. You do things that appeal to media. You make a game that is lovable to the majority of people. You do not cater to people whining about how they don't get to enjoy their "elite low budget special game" that you seem to have this fantasy with involving NS2.
And once again you're honestly trying to fight the point that achievements don't build that much success in sales, when you are just so wrong. It's been proven, COUNTLESS TIMES, that it has helped over the course of it's introduction millions and millions of game titles.
It's also incredibly hypocritical of you to honestly try to tell me my theory is lacking business prowess when you are sitting here in essence, preaching about how you want NS2 to be a core game, not a mass market game, not dumbed down by these "inane and useless and detrimental features" that console games and mass market games have.
Grow up. You are not important in the grand scheme and neither am I. But what is important is the shape of this game, which you apparently are completely clueless about. This "indie" game has over 10,000 preorders. It will be a mainstream success now with steam. It has the ability to compete on a niche level like TF2. And 90% of TF2 players are casual. Your hardcore importance means jack in the grand. If you want NS2 to be your perfect game, then you might as well hand in the towel. If you want NS2 to be a great success and to build through the future, then start looking at gaming as a business as well. Because that IS what it is. And no one EVER said you can't have both fun and business. It's people like yourself that create this ridiculous barrier between fun and profit. You need to open your mind and embrace ALL of gaming, console and the like. Otherwise you just sound like another PC or Console elitist who is just laughable.
I agree with every single word of your post.
Seriously, I've gone like three times through it to make sure, and that is literally true. What did you do?..
Just to add, I can only repeat what I've said before: don't try to reason with Renegade, your nerves will thank you for it. Oh and, I'm sure we'll be able to think of something once we know how the game plays out it more detail - assuming UW doesn't beat us to it - there's got to be room for achievements that are both fun and productive.
I know I won't love every facet of NS2's gameplay, but I have enough faith to know I will love the game as a whole and ultimately want to see it succeed.
I think it should indeed be quite evident that UW aren't working on NS2 just for the sake of money, they just happen to need it, as we all do. Let's not forget that.
A by-proxy didn't work for the Soviets in the '60s, it'll no more work for a petty amateur on a forum.
<!--quoteo(post=1757306:date=Mar 5 2010, 11:19 AM:name=Cyanide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cyanide @ Mar 5 2010, 11:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757306"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Renegade, your post is literally laughable.
...
It's been proven, COUNTLESS TIMES, that it has helped over the course of it's introduction millions and millions of game titles.
...
Grow up
....
PC or Console elitist who is just laughable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh where to start: appeal to ridicule, proof without evidence, CRUISE CONTROL, gross exaggeration, oh an ad hominem! And look, there's that "laughable" again. Why I even bother trudging through such dreary argument must eternally perplex you given you've established that I care nothing for this community, game, its future etcetera. Even I tire to address the entirety of the post you spend placing words in my mouth, suffice to say attempt later (or not at all) when you're with even an ounce of logic.
Realize I am just and more so than you aware of the business needs of UWE but also acknowledge the <b>gaming</b> needs a that <u>gaming</u> company ought have first and foremost. After all, it is what brought them into the industry - <b>gaming is their enterprise</b>. So long as that fact is recognized, I have complete faith that UWE will do what they feel best promotes their guiding principle.
And once again you're honestly trying to fight the point that achievements don't build that much success in sales, when you are just so wrong. It's been proven, COUNTLESS TIMES, that it has helped over the course of it's introduction millions and millions of game titles.
It's also incredibly hypocritical of you to honestly try to tell me my theory is lacking business prowess when you are sitting here in essence, preaching about how you want NS2 to be a core game, not a mass market game, not dumbed down by these "inane and useless and detrimental features" that console games and mass market games have.
Grow up. You are not important in the grand scheme and neither am I. But what is important is the shape of this game, which you apparently are completely clueless about. This "indie" game has over 10,000 preorders. It will be a mainstream success now with steam. It has the ability to compete on a niche level like TF2. And 90% of TF2 players are casual. Your hardcore importance means jack in the grand. If you want NS2 to be your perfect game, then you might as well hand in the towel. If you want NS2 to be a great success and to build through the future, then start looking at gaming as a business as well. Because that IS what it is. And no one EVER said you can't have both fun and business. It's people like yourself that create this ridiculous barrier between fun and profit. You need to open your mind and embrace ALL of gaming, console and the like. Otherwise you just sound like another PC or Console elitist who is just laughable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well said. Reminds me of when I used to be violently opposed to console games before I started to take my future career in game development seriously.
More to the point, Achievements are as viable on PC as they are on any console. Since NS2 uses Steamworks, there are few reasons to assume we won't see 'em.
Achievements are as viable in NS as RTS gameplay is in TF2. There are many reasons to assume we won't see them: precisely one for each achievement. And if there are not, there is exactly one reason to assume that <i>I</i> won't be seeing them.