<!--quoteo(post=1758507:date=Mar 10 2010, 02:58 AM:name=Arkio89)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkio89 @ Mar 10 2010, 02:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758507"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Totally agree on that. Skin tone sould be cool, but only for the marines. Not every color in the Palette, but some real colors haha. For the aliens, perhaps the eyes?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Before reading this thread i to thought it was referring to skin tone... So why just the marines? First thing that came to mind is different shades of tan and green for the aliens. Blue aliens? O ya Avatar... hmm guess a blue fade would be ok to.
<!--quoteo(post=1758619:date=Mar 10 2010, 02:22 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Mar 10 2010, 02:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758619"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Before reading this thread i to thought it was referring to skin tone... So why just the marines? First thing that came to mind is different shades of tan and green for the aliens. Blue aliens? O ya Avatar... hmm guess a blue fade would be ok to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
blue sounds dumb. better to keep it everything "realistic" colors. no rainbow aliens running around. think black and what not. actually i was playing a game the other day and the developers themselves created colors. so instead of a choice in palette, the developers should create a bunch of different looking model colors for the aliens and mariens. it shouldn't be hard to implement. this way battle bug can still play a grey marine, and people still have choices, and then theres no pink marines (there will be pink marines just because its funny and its usually a l33t player owning everyone)
I fully agree with all of Heyman's posts, and the fact that these arguments are simply ignored by the thread-starter (just like this forum's other troll usually does, too) pretty much shows what to expect from this thread
I spotted this post from the first page that I largely ignored because of the second half. I'd like to address some of the points Renegade made.
<!--quoteo(post=1758450:date=Mar 9 2010, 07:10 PM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Mar 9 2010, 07:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758450"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why must you continually introduce the most inept gameplay changes this side of a sniper rifle?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know what you mean. My suggestion is for both teams.
<!--quoteo(post=1758450:date=Mar 9 2010, 07:10 PM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Mar 9 2010, 07:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758450"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A) it's already a farce of cosmetics, by suggesting coloured armour impacts gameplay you've tied your own noose and validated arguments against black armour<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I mentioned in the first post of this thread that we'd have to restrict black armor so that it would be reserved for SE pre-orderers. Only they will be able to use black armor. Everyone can choose any available colors, but only those select few will get to use their cool, exclusive black armor. You may argue that availability of other colors may ruin the significance of black armor. Although this will make it less unique, it will still be unique to those who paid for it.
Note: My suggestion opens the door to being able to choose between regular green armor and black armor. As far as I know, nothing has been said whether marines will be able to switch between those two colors. (Please quote some media if I'm mistaken there.) My suggestion also brings aliens into the color option loop (gameplay changes on the other side of the sniper rifle). I read some posts about people being bummed that aliens had been left out.
<!--quoteo(post=1758450:date=Mar 9 2010, 07:10 PM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Mar 9 2010, 07:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758450"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->B) Even if it were just cosmetics, it's not going in unless I can turn it off client-side, and if I can turn it off client-side I can guarantee <b>I will be the majority</b> who does not want to see your pink-clad go-go outfit running around my ns2_hera.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> From what I've seen on the other custom skin/model threads, some people are excited about customization. The devs can probably put a "show only default skins" button in somewhere if they want. However, I got the feeling that people like customization.
Note: I support you when you say that you, alone, will be the majority :)
I'll respond to the rest of your post tomorrow, Heyman.
<!--quoteo(post=1758714:date=Mar 10 2010, 09:16 PM:name=Battle-Bug)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Battle-Bug @ Mar 10 2010, 09:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758714"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'll respond to the rest of your post tomorrow, Heyman.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1758714:date=Mar 10 2010, 09:16 PM:name=Battle-Bug)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Battle-Bug @ Mar 10 2010, 09:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758714"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I spotted this post from the first page that I largely ignored because of the second half. I'd like to address some of the points Renegade made. I don't know what you mean. My suggestion is for both teams.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You ignored it because you're deliberately responding piecemeal so as to prolong the duration of your topic. You know exactly what I mean, and if you don't others have reminded you that your suggestions are not conducive to NS gameplay.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You may argue that availability of other colors may ruin the significance of black armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's not my argument. My argument is that changing the colour of one's armour (as you agree) will have an impact on gameplay (no matter how slight). A problem I have argued against that not being able to disable black armour client-side (or at least server-side) will exactly introduce this unnecessary disparity.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From what I've seen on the other custom skin/model threads, some people are excited about customization.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Some people are excited about sniper rifles and iron sights as well. I assure you none of these are privy to what made NS gameplay a success.
The fact of the matter is that devs aren't going to include a toggle for customized armour because it has no business being in NS, not for aesthetics and certainly not for gameplay. This is not one of those suggestions that has a chance of seeing the light of day - discussing it further is akin to beating a dead horse.
<!--quoteo(post=1758499:date=Mar 10 2010, 12:31 AM:name=Heyman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heyman @ Mar 10 2010, 12:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758499"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) Immersion - Natural Selection, and it's sequel are by no means realistic games. However, that does not make it an arcade game. If you asked the normal NS player as to what attracted them to the game, <i>it would typically be equal parts atmosphere and gameplay. </i> Color customization would be clearly be unable to work well with UW's intended atmosphere. The marines are not pink because <b>the developers wanted them to fit into their world</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I do see how the atmosphere could be affected if we had a bunch of brightly colored marines running around. However, if all these colors were as bright as the dull green default marine uniform, then I don't think that would distract from the atmosphere. Some dusty tans and browns, grays, dull teal, olive drab, and a dark forest green would be acceptable in my book. For those of you who are into realism, those are possible color choices for a military organization. (but I don't stand behind it as a realism point)
The same thing goes for aliens. I do see what you're talking about with a bunch of jolly rancher colored aliens going around. However, some dull colored aliens could fit right in (way duller than that lerk picture I made), like I suggested with the marines. Once again with the possible realism card (I don't stand behind it as a realism point), many species come in a variety of colors.
<!--quoteo(post=1758499:date=Mar 10 2010, 12:31 AM:name=Heyman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heyman @ Mar 10 2010, 12:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758499"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2) LUA - Everything that the developers are working on will figure directly into competitive and normal play. Because Pink Marines don't have a place there, they should not have to waste time and money adding such features. Promised content needs to be created first. Sure, it takes minimal coding to implement, but then you have to factor in balancing issues, exploitations, among other things. It all adds up. And that is why they have designed their engine to work pleasantly with mods and customization projects. Rest assured that this idea, if you can keep it on a list for a few months, will be certainly very viable to the numerous modders playing around with the new engine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I do agree that my suggested feature should be developed later for the release. The developers have more pressing concerns as far as gameplay goes for the alpha and beta. It will take time and money to add, but I agree with you that it would be minimal (assuming we know what it takes).
For balancing issues and exploitations, there will always be some environment where having a certain color, even the default one, can make you less visible. I do not believe this to be a valid argument for aliens because they have cloaks that are 100x worse. Marines tend to travel in groups (hard to miss) and open fire at anything that moves, so they usually reveal their location. The only exception is a shotgunner at long distance. However, he may use his pistol there :)
There's lots of colored lights in most maps and they can make some colors of marines and aliens less visible. However, some of these colors make them stick out. Like I said earlier, it's a two-edged sword. Also, some people believe that maps will be very dark in places. The colors wont matter much there.
Concerning camouflage, colors may make someone hard to see 1% of the time unless they are purposefully hiding. I expect anyone to be able to recognize a marine or alien when they see one (that isn't in the dark). Player models have distinct areas that aren't colored and they have distinct shapes that your eye should be trained to look for as part of your brain's target recognition.
The only way I believe that colors will play a role in changing gameplay is if people use them to select targets. If a marine was eaten by the brown onos, he might shoot at it first next time he sees it or the fade knows that the teal marine is the weakling welder. However, these players can choose their colors to match other teammates to avoid these situations.
Last, we have forms of radar. I don't know if Scent of Fear or Motion Tracking are in the game, but they'd defeat any camouflaging, period.
I think it's very obvious that a full spectrum of rainbow colors simply won't fit into the atmosphere of NS. So if at all, we are talking about some different (predefined?) shades of not-too-saturated gray, brown and green. Probably this range of 'acceptable' colors is not big enough to really make players unique.
I also see a problem in applying these different colors. Devs already <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=107445&st=280&p=1732124&#entry1732124" target="_blank">said</a> that the skins are some 2048x2048 maps, which probably means that for every color you need to load a new picture this size into your memory. Also they <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=108431&st=20&p=1744333&#entry1744333" target="_blank">said</a> that the black armor is not simply the green armor with every detail faded to black. So an approach to simply take the original skin and shift every pixels color closer to some desired value, will look rather odd. Especially for the aliens as there are a lot more colored details on them. So you have to specify how strong the coloring is affecting different parts of the skin. Probably an effort not worth the outcome.
However, on a more abstract layer, the overall goal - to make players distinguishable from each other despite their bare player name - is in direct conflict with the concept of military uniforms (uniform -> (only) one form). The only solution to this problem is to allow only minor changes, so from a distance everything still looks the same. Such changes could be <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=107566" target="_blank">name-patches</a> or smaller logos/sprays/scarves/tattoos/pigments (let's say on the chest-plate/shoulder).
<!--quoteo(post=1758836:date=Mar 11 2010, 03:20 PM:name=Battle-Bug)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Battle-Bug @ Mar 11 2010, 03:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758836"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here it is. Sorry for the length.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, I'm glad you decided to respond. Now, on to my own response.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do agree that my suggested feature should be developed later for the release. The developers have more pressing concerns as far as gameplay goes for the alpha and beta. It will take time and money to add, but I agree with you that it would be minimal (assuming we know what it takes).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But then, why would the developers bother? The players have the tools. Simply because, "it's cool?" It doesn't seem like it's worth the effort, when other people are already going to work on it, without the developer's expense.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do see how the atmosphere could be affected if we had a bunch of brightly colored marines running around. However, if all these colors were as bright as the dull green default marine uniform, then I don't think that would distract from the atmosphere. Some dusty tans and browns, grays, dull teal, olive drab, and a dark forest green would be acceptable in my book. For those of you who are into realism, those are possible color choices for a military organization. (but I don't stand behind it as a realism point)
The same thing goes for aliens. I do see what you're talking about with a bunch of jolly rancher colored aliens going around. However, some dull colored aliens could fit right in (way duller than that lerk picture I made), like I suggested with the marines. Once again with the possible realism card (I don't stand behind it as a realism point), many species come in a variety of colors.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are only addressing the immersion and atmosphere issue at the surface level. Ask yourself this: Why are the marines green? Writers at Unknown Worlds took the time and effort to come up with an explanation for this specific color. When they released the concept art, and later, the renders for the Marine Armor, there were several paragraphs reserved specifically for how these pieces played a part in the story. The Marines have less of an identity when each player begins to choose a different color. The same goes for the alien designs. You're not just messing up with visual fidelity: You're messing with some story, and is it really worth it to give the writers more work than needed?
And if your answer is to not bother making up some story: That's where Developers come at a crossroads: How much of their vision should they dilute simply to service the player's will? In this case, Unknown Worlds gained their notoriety because they they put as much of their vision into tangible form as possible. Players loved how the aliens had a consistent play style that perfectly fit their manner of being. Players loved how the marines had a commander, which in addition to having a far-reaching impact on gameplay, gave a layer of depth to Trans-System Authority's military operations.
But this color customization does not seem to have any substantial place in the the world the Developers at Unknown Worlds have constructed. And any attempt to make it so would create more work than the small amount of tweaking that you mentioned. It would bring up the question of opportunity cost.
<!--quoteo(post=1758861:date=Mar 11 2010, 04:22 PM:name=Brute)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Brute @ Mar 11 2010, 04:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758861"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also see a problem in applying these different colors. Devs already <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=107445&st=280&p=1732124&#entry1732124" target="_blank">said</a> that the skins are some 2048x2048 maps, which probably means that for every color you need to load a new picture this size into your memory. Also they <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=108431&st=20&p=1744333&#entry1744333" target="_blank">said</a> that the black armor is not simply the green armor with every detail faded to black. So an approach to simply take the original skin and shift every pixels color closer to some desired value, will look rather odd. Especially for the aliens as there are a lot more colored details on them. So you have to specify how strong the coloring is affecting different parts of the skin. Probably an effort not worth the outcome.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1758381:date=Mar 9 2010, 01:52 PM:name=Battle-Bug)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Battle-Bug @ Mar 9 2010, 01:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758381"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro--><b>Suggestion:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> There is a type of skin customization that is common that I believe wouldn't be too difficult to do and would allow for the customization some desire. I'm talking about skins that can have their color changed. Lots of games have this feature. You pull the sliders to change the color settings and <b>certain areas of the skin</b> change. Then the player can spawn as that color.
The trick is to code it so that <b>only certain areas of the skin</b> are affected. If there is a blue light on the marine, we don't want it to change colors.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As you can see, I addressed this in the first post. Only certain areas of the skin are affected. Example: if the human face were on that very skin, we wouldn't want it to turn to green or purple :)
<!--quoteo(post=1758861:date=Mar 11 2010, 04:22 PM:name=Brute)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Brute @ Mar 11 2010, 04:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758861"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However, on a more abstract layer, the overall goal - to make players distinguishable from each other despite their bare player name - is in direct conflict with the concept of military uniforms (uniform -> (only) one form). The only solution to this problem is to allow only minor changes, so from a distance everything still looks the same. Such changes could be <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=107566" target="_blank">name-patches</a> or smaller logos/sprays/scarves/tattoos/pigments (let's say on the chest-plate/shoulder).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The name patch thread is one of the inspirations for this thread. I'm of the opinion that if we needed name tags, then a player's name wouldn't pop up when we hover our crosshairs over them. Besides, there are plenty of examples of military organizations with different colors with the same class of uniforms.
<!--quoteo(post=1758863:date=Mar 11 2010, 04:35 PM:name=Heyman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heyman @ Mar 11 2010, 04:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758863"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But then, why would the developers bother? The players have the tools. Simply because, "it's cool?" It doesn't seem like it's worth the effort, when other people are already going to work on it, without the developer's expense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's to satisfy people who like customization. Most people do. When you go to a restaurant, how many items are on the menu? When you go to buy a saw, how many types can you choose from? It's simply an extra level of interaction for players.
<!--quoteo(post=1758863:date=Mar 11 2010, 04:35 PM:name=Heyman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heyman @ Mar 11 2010, 04:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758863"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are only addressing the immersion and atmosphere issue at the surface level. Ask yourself this: Why are the marines green? Writers at Unknown Worlds took the time and effort to come up with an explanation for this specific color. When they released the concept art, and later, the renders for the Marine Armor, there were several paragraphs reserved specifically for how these pieces played a part in the story. The Marines have less of an identity when each player begins to choose a different color. The same goes for the alien designs. You're not just messing up with visual fidelity: You're messing with some story, and is it really worth it to give the writers more work than needed?
And if your answer is to not bother making up some story: That's where Developers come at a crossroads: How much of their vision should they dilute simply to service the player's will? In this case, Unknown Worlds gained their notoriety because they they put as much of their vision into tangible form as possible. Players loved how the aliens had a consistent play style that perfectly fit their manner of being. Players loved how the marines had a commander, which in addition to having a far-reaching impact on gameplay, gave a layer of depth to Trans-System Authority's military operations.
But this color customization does not seem to have any substantial place in the the world the Developers at Unknown Worlds have constructed. And any attempt to make it so would create more work than the small amount of tweaking that you mentioned. It would bring up the question of opportunity cost.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're telling me that there's a story why marines are green and aliens are the colors that they are? There's a huge investment behind this? It would largely interfere with the developer's vision if players had some leeway with their appearance?
Yes Battle-Bug, we know uniforms come in more than one color. However, this does not mean that everyone has their free pick of what to wear at any given time. Particularly in combat, <i>everyone is wearing the same color.</i>
<!--quoteo(post=1758885:date=Mar 11 2010, 08:09 PM:name=Battle-Bug)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Battle-Bug @ Mar 11 2010, 08:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758885"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's to satisfy people who like customization. Most people do. When you go to a restaurant, how many items are on the menu? When you go to buy a saw, how many types can you choose from? It's simply an extra level of interaction for players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LUA is there to satisfy people who like customization. The developers made it this way, so that they would not have to create custom content fitting with their original intentions. When I go to a Kincaid's Burgers, I ask for their burgers, because they are well known for making good burgers. When I go to buy a saw, I buy the one that I know is known for the best quality and design, engineered directly from the best specialists in the field.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're telling me that there's a story why marines are green and aliens are the colors that they are? There's a huge investment behind this? It would largely interfere with the developer's vision if players had some leeway with their appearance?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1758587:date=Mar 10 2010, 11:35 AM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Mar 10 2010, 11:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758587"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I bet infinity dollars that the first released mod will be the one that grants all marines black armour.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anyone can do that, just replace the green model files with a copy of the black model files. I'll be doing the opposite btw :P
But i agree that their's going to be a time where people get tired of seeing two colored versions of the same marine running around... Unless we make it black armor vs green armor vs aliens which you can BET there will be cool servers like that lol. Applying what was done in AVP2 to NS2, then the black armor can be the corporation mercenaries that are trying to capture the aliens so they can be used as bio-weapons, and the green armors can be the actual marines here to kill everything with more then two legs (shameless starship troopers reference) :P Sounds fun enough to play actually... like marine vs marine vs aliens lol.
<!--quoteo(post=1758907:date=Mar 11 2010, 09:04 PM:name=Heyman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heyman @ Mar 11 2010, 09:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When I go to a Kincaid's Burgers, I ask for their burgers, because they are well known for making good burgers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They're only serving kid's meals.
<!--quoteo(post=1758907:date=Mar 11 2010, 09:04 PM:name=Heyman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heyman @ Mar 11 2010, 09:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When I go to buy a saw, I buy the one that I know is known for the best quality and design, engineered directly from the best specialists in the field.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're trying to cut down a large tree and all they have are small hacksaws.
My point is that we shouldn't be stuck with default. What makes the marine skin's default color the "best quality and design?" Does it blend well with the surroundings? No, very few things in NS are that color. Your only argument here is that it's a tough color for red-green deficient (color blind) people to see. We're being stuck with default.
btw, here's an idea. What if heavies and jetpacks had different colors of armor? An example would be khaki for heavy and brown for jetpacks (I'm not set on those colors, just an example) along with the green for regular marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1758918:date=Mar 11 2010, 11:56 PM:name=Battle-Bug)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Battle-Bug @ Mar 11 2010, 11:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758918"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They're only serving kid's meals.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On the contrary, those burgers are quite large. Go check the place out yourself (they're rather delicious). You are comparing a lack of color customization with a lack of relevant choice. The thing is: Color isn't a relevant choice. A better comparison would rather be that the color of the bread isn't green, but it should be, and you think that the lettuce they offer should have choices based on the water concentration of the leaves.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're trying to cut down a large tree and all they have are small hacksaws.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, not an accurate analogy. The saws are most definitely large enough, except you would want a handle that reaches the ground so you can activate it with your pinky toe.
<!--coloro:pink--><span style="color:pink"><!--/coloro-->Color<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> me wrong, but both of those analogies seem to imply that you believe a lack of color customization would mean a lack of <i>content</i> in Natural Selection 2. I rather think I disagree.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My point is that we shouldn't be stuck with default.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not? I think it's cool that we're stuck on green. I think it'd be cool to play as the developer's marine: The way they intended it to be. Is it too dull for you? Why is it too dull for you?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Btw, here's an idea. What if heavies and jetpacks had different colors of armor? An example would be khaki for heavy and brown for jetpacks (I'm not set on those colors, just an example) along with the green for regular marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1758924:date=Mar 11 2010, 11:59 PM:name=Heyman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heyman @ Mar 11 2010, 11:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758924"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the contrary, those burgers are quite large.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Alright, you took those analogies way more literally than intended. Let me make a better one.
Lets say they're only serving breakfast today. If you go there, you can't order off of the lunch menu. You get stuck with ordering breakfast. That's how I feel about being stuck with the default color. I happen to want lunch, but they aren't giving me that option. Breakfast is still food, but it's not what I want.
<!--quoteo(post=1758924:date=Mar 11 2010, 11:59 PM:name=Heyman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heyman @ Mar 11 2010, 11:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758924"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not? I think it's cool that we're stuck on green. I think it'd be cool to play as the developer's marine: The way they intended it to be. Is it too dull for you? Why is it too dull for you?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem I have with no selection is that everyone looks the same. Lets say there is a guy named Panther_Hunter. He is on the alien team and he's a very good skulk. He usually attacks with another skulk for better chances of killing a marine. Panther has, by coincidence, killed me several times when I'm outnumbered by them. I usually kill the other skulk and then attack him because I can't tell them apart. However, if he were a different color, I'd shoot Panther first and have my revenge. It would be much more rewarding. It would also create a new level of target selection.
Making it easier for players to tell each other apart is a great idea, however it's also an incredibly complex task, both in terms of implementation at all, and running in conflict with general character readability, atmopshere, lore, visuals, and so on. You need to keep all of these factors in mind.
For players on the same team, there may be floating names and such... Something along these lines. Maybe colour bands on marine's armor or something, I don't know. Customising armour/alien colour all at once may simply result in loss of readability ("What is that purple thing over the... OH ######")
<!--quoteo(post=1758986:date=Mar 12 2010, 07:48 AM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Mar 12 2010, 07:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758986"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For players on the same team, there may be floating names and such... Something along these lines. Maybe colour bands on marine's armor or something, I don't know. Customising armour/alien colour all at once may simply result in loss of readability ("What is that purple thing over the... OH ######")<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Arm bands for marines wouldn't be as effective as desired, but it would be a nice touch. I haven't seen that in a game before.
We also must remember that in the event of a team game mode, different colors will come in handy. Anyone who has played MvM knows that glowing marines take away from the visuals. If the teams were just different colors (model skin), then that would be ideal.
Also, we don't need more than one alien or marine team in order to use a team color. Lets say the comm has an option where he can change the color of his team (upon spawning). He can do that.
<!--quoteo(post=1758984:date=Mar 12 2010, 08:40 AM:name=Battle-Bug)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Battle-Bug @ Mar 12 2010, 08:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758984"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alright, you took those analogies way more literally than intended. Let me make a better one.
Lets say they're only serving breakfast today. If you go there, you can't order off of the lunch menu. You get stuck with ordering breakfast. That's how I feel about being stuck with the default color. I happen to want lunch, but they aren't giving me that option. Breakfast is still food, but it's not what I want.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also disagree with this analogy.. Natural Selection 2 would be more like a restaurant that serves Brunch only. They are famous for Brunch. People go there to eat Brunch. If they go there to eat breakfast, there's something for them, but not everything should necessarily cater to their needs.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem I have with no selection is that everyone looks the same. Lets say there is a guy named Panther_Hunter. He is on the alien team and he's a very good skulk. He usually attacks with another skulk for better chances of killing a marine. Panther has, by coincidence, killed me several times when I'm outnumbered by them. I usually kill the other skulk and then attack him because I can't tell them apart. However, if he were a different color, I'd shoot Panther first and have my revenge. It would be much more rewarding. It would also create a new level of target selection.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Will the lack of color customization keep you from playing this game effectively?
Personally, I think that the uniformity helps add to the tension of a game. Do we really need to add more predictability? Adding a way to single out player besides armor type and lifeform seems excessive, and could possible promote more individualistic play rather than teamwork like you claim it to be.
<!--quoteo(post=1758996:date=Mar 12 2010, 06:59 PM:name=Battle-Bug)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Battle-Bug @ Mar 12 2010, 06:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758996"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Arm bands for marines wouldn't be as effective as desired, but it would be a nice touch. I haven't seen that in a game before.
We also must remember that in the event of a team game mode, different colors will come in handy. Anyone who has played MvM knows that glowing marines take away from the visuals. If the teams were just different colors (model skin), then that would be ideal.
Also, we don't need more than one alien or marine team in order to use a team color. Lets say the comm has an option where he can change the color of his team (upon spawning). He can do that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It wouldn't be as effective, but it would also be less disorienting and incoherent. I'm not advocating arm-bands specifically, I'm saying there needs be a balance between readability and ditinguishability. Maybe the armour colorisation would do, maybe just parts of it, maybe none at all... Oh, speaking of, maybe we could change the colour of marine's holo-visor based on their squad: it shouldn't be too confusing, it has informative value, and it's easily noticable. Or something to that effect.
The general functionality would certainly be great for mods even if it doesn't see official support, so there's that.
<!--quoteo(post=1759014:date=Mar 12 2010, 11:26 AM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Mar 12 2010, 11:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759014"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh, speaking of, maybe we could change the colour of marine's holo-visor based on their squad: it shouldn't be too confusing, it has informative value, and it's easily noticable. Or something to that effect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is true. I've always had a difficult time keeping track of squad mates. Some way of instantly and visually recognizing members of different squads would be good.
<!--quoteo(post=1759014:date=Mar 12 2010, 12:26 PM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Mar 12 2010, 12:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759014"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh, speaking of, maybe we could change the colour of marine's holo-visor based on their squad: it shouldn't be too confusing, it has informative value, and it's easily noticable. Or something to that effect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a great idea. It's subtle and a pretty solid way to distinguish your teammates as well as knowing what squad you are part of by simply tinting the players HUD. Especially since the visor is apparently part of the outside player model already this should be a piece of cake for them to try out.
<!--quoteo(post=1759304:date=Mar 13 2010, 09:32 PM:name=Triggerman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Triggerman @ Mar 13 2010, 09:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759304"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's a great idea. It's subtle and a pretty solid way to distinguish your teammates as well as knowing what squad you are part of by simply tinting the players HUD. Especially since the visor is apparently part of the outside player model already this should be a piece of cake for them to try out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What happens when you can't see their hud visor thing?. Instead it's be better if the crazy leds on the marines armor could just glow the squads color. This way if their facing away from you, then you can still figure it out.
Comments
Before reading this thread i to thought it was referring to skin tone... So why just the marines? First thing that came to mind is different shades of tan and green for the aliens. Blue aliens? O ya Avatar... hmm guess a blue fade would be ok to.
blue sounds dumb. better to keep it everything "realistic" colors. no rainbow aliens running around. think black and what not. actually i was playing a game the other day and the developers themselves created colors. so instead of a choice in palette, the developers should create a bunch of different looking model colors for the aliens and mariens. it shouldn't be hard to implement. this way battle bug can still play a grey marine, and people still have choices, and then theres no pink marines (there will be pink marines just because its funny and its usually a l33t player owning everyone)
<!--quoteo(post=1758450:date=Mar 9 2010, 07:10 PM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Mar 9 2010, 07:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758450"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why must you continually introduce the most inept gameplay changes this side of a sniper rifle?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know what you mean. My suggestion is for both teams.
<!--quoteo(post=1758450:date=Mar 9 2010, 07:10 PM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Mar 9 2010, 07:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758450"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A) it's already a farce of cosmetics, by suggesting coloured armour impacts gameplay you've tied your own noose and validated arguments against black armour<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I mentioned in the first post of this thread that we'd have to restrict black armor so that it would be reserved for SE pre-orderers. Only they will be able to use black armor. Everyone can choose any available colors, but only those select few will get to use their cool, exclusive black armor. You may argue that availability of other colors may ruin the significance of black armor. Although this will make it less unique, it will still be unique to those who paid for it.
Note: My suggestion opens the door to being able to choose between regular green armor and black armor. As far as I know, nothing has been said whether marines will be able to switch between those two colors. (Please quote some media if I'm mistaken there.) My suggestion also brings aliens into the color option loop (gameplay changes on the other side of the sniper rifle). I read some posts about people being bummed that aliens had been left out.
<!--quoteo(post=1758450:date=Mar 9 2010, 07:10 PM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Mar 9 2010, 07:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758450"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->B) Even if it were just cosmetics, it's not going in unless I can turn it off client-side, and if I can turn it off client-side I can guarantee <b>I will be the majority</b> who does not want to see your pink-clad go-go outfit running around my ns2_hera.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From what I've seen on the other custom skin/model threads, some people are excited about customization. The devs can probably put a "show only default skins" button in somewhere if they want. However, I got the feeling that people like customization.
Note: I support you when you say that you, alone, will be the majority :)
I'll respond to the rest of your post tomorrow, Heyman.
It's already a huge improvement.
I don't know what you mean. My suggestion is for both teams.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You ignored it because you're deliberately responding piecemeal so as to prolong the duration of your topic. You know exactly what I mean, and if you don't others have reminded you that your suggestions are not conducive to NS gameplay.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You may argue that availability of other colors may ruin the significance of black armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's not my argument. My argument is that changing the colour of one's armour (as you agree) will have an impact on gameplay (no matter how slight). A problem I have argued against that not being able to disable black armour client-side (or at least server-side) will exactly introduce this unnecessary disparity.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From what I've seen on the other custom skin/model threads, some people are excited about customization.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Some people are excited about sniper rifles and iron sights as well. I assure you none of these are privy to what made NS gameplay a success.
The fact of the matter is that devs aren't going to include a toggle for customized armour because it has no business being in NS, not for aesthetics and certainly not for gameplay. This is not one of those suggestions that has a chance of seeing the light of day - discussing it further is akin to beating a dead horse.
<!--quoteo(post=1758499:date=Mar 10 2010, 12:31 AM:name=Heyman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heyman @ Mar 10 2010, 12:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758499"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) Immersion - Natural Selection, and it's sequel are by no means realistic games. However, that does not make it an arcade game. If you asked the normal NS player as to what attracted them to the game, <i>it would typically be equal parts atmosphere and gameplay. </i> Color customization would be clearly be unable to work well with UW's intended atmosphere. The marines are not pink because <b>the developers wanted them to fit into their world</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do see how the atmosphere could be affected if we had a bunch of brightly colored marines running around. However, if all these colors were as bright as the dull green default marine uniform, then I don't think that would distract from the atmosphere. Some dusty tans and browns, grays, dull teal, olive drab, and a dark forest green would be acceptable in my book. For those of you who are into realism, those are possible color choices for a military organization. (but I don't stand behind it as a realism point)
The same thing goes for aliens. I do see what you're talking about with a bunch of jolly rancher colored aliens going around. However, some dull colored aliens could fit right in (way duller than that lerk picture I made), like I suggested with the marines. Once again with the possible realism card (I don't stand behind it as a realism point), many species come in a variety of colors.
<!--quoteo(post=1758499:date=Mar 10 2010, 12:31 AM:name=Heyman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heyman @ Mar 10 2010, 12:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758499"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2) LUA - Everything that the developers are working on will figure directly into competitive and normal play. Because Pink Marines don't have a place there, they should not have to waste time and money adding such features. Promised content needs to be created first. Sure, it takes minimal coding to implement, but then you have to factor in balancing issues, exploitations, among other things. It all adds up. And that is why they have designed their engine to work pleasantly with mods and customization projects. Rest assured that this idea, if you can keep it on a list for a few months, will be certainly very viable to the numerous modders playing around with the new engine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do agree that my suggested feature should be developed later for the release. The developers have more pressing concerns as far as gameplay goes for the alpha and beta. It will take time and money to add, but I agree with you that it would be minimal (assuming we know what it takes).
For balancing issues and exploitations, there will always be some environment where having a certain color, even the default one, can make you less visible. I do not believe this to be a valid argument for aliens because they have cloaks that are 100x worse. Marines tend to travel in groups (hard to miss) and open fire at anything that moves, so they usually reveal their location. The only exception is a shotgunner at long distance. However, he may use his pistol there :)
There's lots of colored lights in most maps and they can make some colors of marines and aliens less visible. However, some of these colors make them stick out. Like I said earlier, it's a two-edged sword. Also, some people believe that maps will be very dark in places. The colors wont matter much there.
Concerning camouflage, colors may make someone hard to see 1% of the time unless they are purposefully hiding. I expect anyone to be able to recognize a marine or alien when they see one (that isn't in the dark). Player models have distinct areas that aren't colored and they have distinct shapes that your eye should be trained to look for as part of your brain's target recognition.
The only way I believe that colors will play a role in changing gameplay is if people use them to select targets. If a marine was eaten by the brown onos, he might shoot at it first next time he sees it or the fade knows that the teal marine is the weakling welder. However, these players can choose their colors to match other teammates to avoid these situations.
Last, we have forms of radar. I don't know if Scent of Fear or Motion Tracking are in the game, but they'd defeat any camouflaging, period.
So if at all, we are talking about some different (predefined?) shades of not-too-saturated gray, brown and green.
Probably this range of 'acceptable' colors is not big enough to really make players unique.
I also see a problem in applying these different colors. Devs already <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=107445&st=280&p=1732124&#entry1732124" target="_blank">said</a> that the skins are some 2048x2048 maps, which probably means that for every color you need to load a new picture this size into your memory. Also they <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=108431&st=20&p=1744333&#entry1744333" target="_blank">said</a> that the black armor is not simply the green armor with every detail faded to black. So an approach to simply take the original skin and shift every pixels color closer to some desired value, will look rather odd. Especially for the aliens as there are a lot more colored details on them. So you have to specify how strong the coloring is affecting different parts of the skin. Probably an effort not worth the outcome.
However, on a more abstract layer, the overall goal - to make players distinguishable from each other despite their bare player name - is in direct conflict with the concept of military uniforms (uniform -> (only) one form). The only solution to this problem is to allow only minor changes, so from a distance everything still looks the same. Such changes could be <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=107566" target="_blank">name-patches</a> or smaller logos/sprays/scarves/tattoos/pigments (let's say on the chest-plate/shoulder).
First of all, I'm glad you decided to respond. Now, on to my own response.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do agree that my suggested feature should be developed later for the release. The developers have more pressing concerns as far as gameplay goes for the alpha and beta. It will take time and money to add, but I agree with you that it would be minimal (assuming we know what it takes).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But then, why would the developers bother? The players have the tools. Simply because, "it's cool?" It doesn't seem like it's worth the effort, when other people are already going to work on it, without the developer's expense.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do see how the atmosphere could be affected if we had a bunch of brightly colored marines running around. However, if all these colors were as bright as the dull green default marine uniform, then I don't think that would distract from the atmosphere. Some dusty tans and browns, grays, dull teal, olive drab, and a dark forest green would be acceptable in my book. For those of you who are into realism, those are possible color choices for a military organization. (but I don't stand behind it as a realism point)
The same thing goes for aliens. I do see what you're talking about with a bunch of jolly rancher colored aliens going around. However, some dull colored aliens could fit right in (way duller than that lerk picture I made), like I suggested with the marines. Once again with the possible realism card (I don't stand behind it as a realism point), many species come in a variety of colors.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are only addressing the immersion and atmosphere issue at the surface level. Ask yourself this: Why are the marines green? Writers at Unknown Worlds took the time and effort to come up with an explanation for this specific color. When they released the concept art, and later, the renders for the Marine Armor, there were several paragraphs reserved specifically for how these pieces played a part in the story. The Marines have less of an identity when each player begins to choose a different color. The same goes for the alien designs. You're not just messing up with visual fidelity: You're messing with some story, and is it really worth it to give the writers more work than needed?
And if your answer is to not bother making up some story:
That's where Developers come at a crossroads: How much of their vision should they dilute simply to service the player's will?
In this case, Unknown Worlds gained their notoriety because they they put as much of their vision into tangible form as possible. Players loved how the aliens had a consistent play style that perfectly fit their manner of being. Players loved how the marines had a commander, which in addition to having a far-reaching impact on gameplay, gave a layer of depth to Trans-System Authority's military operations.
But this color customization does not seem to have any substantial place in the the world the Developers at Unknown Worlds have constructed. And any attempt to make it so would create more work than the small amount of tweaking that you mentioned. It would bring up the question of opportunity cost.
<!--quoteo(post=1758381:date=Mar 9 2010, 01:52 PM:name=Battle-Bug)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Battle-Bug @ Mar 9 2010, 01:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758381"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro--><b>Suggestion:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
There is a type of skin customization that is common that I believe wouldn't be too difficult to do and would allow for the customization some desire. I'm talking about skins that can have their color changed. Lots of games have this feature. You pull the sliders to change the color settings and <b>certain areas of the skin</b> change. Then the player can spawn as that color.
The trick is to code it so that <b>only certain areas of the skin</b> are affected. If there is a blue light on the marine, we don't want it to change colors.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As you can see, I addressed this in the first post. Only certain areas of the skin are affected. Example: if the human face were on that very skin, we wouldn't want it to turn to green or purple :)
<!--quoteo(post=1758861:date=Mar 11 2010, 04:22 PM:name=Brute)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Brute @ Mar 11 2010, 04:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758861"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However, on a more abstract layer, the overall goal - to make players distinguishable from each other despite their bare player name - is in direct conflict with the concept of military uniforms (uniform -> (only) one form). The only solution to this problem is to allow only minor changes, so from a distance everything still looks the same. Such changes could be <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=107566" target="_blank">name-patches</a> or smaller logos/sprays/scarves/tattoos/pigments (let's say on the chest-plate/shoulder).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The name patch thread is one of the inspirations for this thread. I'm of the opinion that if we needed name tags, then a player's name wouldn't pop up when we hover our crosshairs over them. Besides, there are plenty of examples of military organizations with different colors with the same class of uniforms.
<img src="http://news.soc.mil/releases/News%20Archive/2004/04APR/040401-A-5395C-049.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r108/marmer01/Military/MarineMajor-3uniforms.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://www.nycarmynavy.com/store/store5.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/9717/68844838.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<!--quoteo(post=1758863:date=Mar 11 2010, 04:35 PM:name=Heyman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heyman @ Mar 11 2010, 04:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758863"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But then, why would the developers bother? The players have the tools. Simply because, "it's cool?" It doesn't seem like it's worth the effort, when other people are already going to work on it, without the developer's expense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's to satisfy people who like customization. Most people do. When you go to a restaurant, how many items are on the menu? When you go to buy a saw, how many types can you choose from? It's simply an extra level of interaction for players.
<!--quoteo(post=1758863:date=Mar 11 2010, 04:35 PM:name=Heyman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heyman @ Mar 11 2010, 04:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758863"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are only addressing the immersion and atmosphere issue at the surface level. Ask yourself this: Why are the marines green? Writers at Unknown Worlds took the time and effort to come up with an explanation for this specific color. When they released the concept art, and later, the renders for the Marine Armor, there were several paragraphs reserved specifically for how these pieces played a part in the story. The Marines have less of an identity when each player begins to choose a different color. The same goes for the alien designs. You're not just messing up with visual fidelity: You're messing with some story, and is it really worth it to give the writers more work than needed?
And if your answer is to not bother making up some story:
That's where Developers come at a crossroads: How much of their vision should they dilute simply to service the player's will?
In this case, Unknown Worlds gained their notoriety because they they put as much of their vision into tangible form as possible. Players loved how the aliens had a consistent play style that perfectly fit their manner of being. Players loved how the marines had a commander, which in addition to having a far-reaching impact on gameplay, gave a layer of depth to Trans-System Authority's military operations.
But this color customization does not seem to have any substantial place in the the world the Developers at Unknown Worlds have constructed. And any attempt to make it so would create more work than the small amount of tweaking that you mentioned. It would bring up the question of opportunity cost.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're telling me that there's a story why marines are green and aliens are the colors that they are? There's a huge investment behind this? It would largely interfere with the developer's vision if players had some leeway with their appearance?
LUA is there to satisfy people who like customization. The developers made it this way, so that they would not have to create custom content fitting with their original intentions. When I go to a Kincaid's Burgers, I ask for their burgers, because they are well known for making good burgers. When I go to buy a saw, I buy the one that I know is known for the best quality and design, engineered directly from the best specialists in the field.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're telling me that there's a story why marines are green and aliens are the colors that they are? There's a huge investment behind this? It would largely interfere with the developer's vision if players had some leeway with their appearance?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes.
Anyone can do that, just replace the green model files with a copy of the black model files. I'll be doing the opposite btw :P
But i agree that their's going to be a time where people get tired of seeing two colored versions of the same marine running around... Unless we make it black armor vs green armor vs aliens which you can BET there will be cool servers like that lol. Applying what was done in AVP2 to NS2, then the black armor can be the corporation mercenaries that are trying to capture the aliens so they can be used as bio-weapons, and the green armors can be the actual marines here to kill everything with more then two legs (shameless starship troopers reference) :P Sounds fun enough to play actually... like marine vs marine vs aliens lol.
They're only serving kid's meals.
<!--quoteo(post=1758907:date=Mar 11 2010, 09:04 PM:name=Heyman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heyman @ Mar 11 2010, 09:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When I go to buy a saw, I buy the one that I know is known for the best quality and design, engineered directly from the best specialists in the field.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're trying to cut down a large tree and all they have are small hacksaws.
My point is that we shouldn't be stuck with default. What makes the marine skin's default color the "best quality and design?" Does it blend well with the surroundings? No, very few things in NS are that color. Your only argument here is that it's a tough color for red-green deficient (color blind) people to see. We're being stuck with default.
btw, here's an idea. What if heavies and jetpacks had different colors of armor? An example would be khaki for heavy and brown for jetpacks (I'm not set on those colors, just an example) along with the green for regular marines.
On the contrary, those burgers are quite large. Go check the place out yourself (they're rather delicious). You are comparing a lack of color customization with a lack of relevant choice. The thing is: Color isn't a relevant choice. A better comparison would rather be that the color of the bread isn't green, but it should be, and you think that the lettuce they offer should have choices based on the water concentration of the leaves.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're trying to cut down a large tree and all they have are small hacksaws.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, not an accurate analogy. The saws are most definitely large enough, except you would want a handle that reaches the ground so you can activate it with your pinky toe.
<!--coloro:pink--><span style="color:pink"><!--/coloro-->Color<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> me wrong, but both of those analogies seem to imply that you believe a lack of color customization would mean a lack of <i>content</i> in Natural Selection 2. I rather think I disagree.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My point is that we shouldn't be stuck with default.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not? I think it's cool that we're stuck on green. I think it'd be cool to play as the developer's marine: The way they intended it to be. Is it too dull for you? Why is it too dull for you?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Btw, here's an idea. What if heavies and jetpacks had different colors of armor? An example would be khaki for heavy and brown for jetpacks (I'm not set on those colors, just an example) along with the green for regular marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They would have different colors of armor.
Alright, you took those analogies way more literally than intended. Let me make a better one.
Lets say they're only serving breakfast today. If you go there, you can't order off of the lunch menu. You get stuck with ordering breakfast. That's how I feel about being stuck with the default color. I happen to want lunch, but they aren't giving me that option. Breakfast is still food, but it's not what I want.
<!--quoteo(post=1758924:date=Mar 11 2010, 11:59 PM:name=Heyman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heyman @ Mar 11 2010, 11:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758924"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not? I think it's cool that we're stuck on green. I think it'd be cool to play as the developer's marine: The way they intended it to be. Is it too dull for you? Why is it too dull for you?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem I have with no selection is that everyone looks the same. Lets say there is a guy named Panther_Hunter. He is on the alien team and he's a very good skulk. He usually attacks with another skulk for better chances of killing a marine. Panther has, by coincidence, killed me several times when I'm outnumbered by them. I usually kill the other skulk and then attack him because I can't tell them apart. However, if he were a different color, I'd shoot Panther first and have my revenge. It would be much more rewarding. It would also create a new level of target selection.
For players on the same team, there may be floating names and such... Something along these lines. Maybe colour bands on marine's armor or something, I don't know. Customising armour/alien colour all at once may simply result in loss of readability ("What is that purple thing over the... OH ######")
Arm bands for marines wouldn't be as effective as desired, but it would be a nice touch. I haven't seen that in a game before.
We also must remember that in the event of a team game mode, different colors will come in handy. Anyone who has played MvM knows that glowing marines take away from the visuals. If the teams were just different colors (model skin), then that would be ideal.
Also, we don't need more than one alien or marine team in order to use a team color. Lets say the comm has an option where he can change the color of his team (upon spawning). He can do that.
Lets say they're only serving breakfast today. If you go there, you can't order off of the lunch menu. You get stuck with ordering breakfast. That's how I feel about being stuck with the default color. I happen to want lunch, but they aren't giving me that option. Breakfast is still food, but it's not what I want.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also disagree with this analogy.. Natural Selection 2 would be more like a restaurant that serves Brunch only. They are famous for Brunch. People go there to eat Brunch. If they go there to eat breakfast, there's something for them, but not everything should necessarily cater to their needs.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem I have with no selection is that everyone looks the same. Lets say there is a guy named Panther_Hunter. He is on the alien team and he's a very good skulk. He usually attacks with another skulk for better chances of killing a marine. Panther has, by coincidence, killed me several times when I'm outnumbered by them. I usually kill the other skulk and then attack him because I can't tell them apart. However, if he were a different color, I'd shoot Panther first and have my revenge. It would be much more rewarding. It would also create a new level of target selection.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Will the lack of color customization keep you from playing this game effectively?
Personally, I think that the uniformity helps add to the tension of a game. Do we really need to add more predictability? Adding a way to single out player besides armor type and lifeform seems excessive, and could possible promote more individualistic play rather than teamwork like you claim it to be.
We also must remember that in the event of a team game mode, different colors will come in handy. Anyone who has played MvM knows that glowing marines take away from the visuals. If the teams were just different colors (model skin), then that would be ideal.
Also, we don't need more than one alien or marine team in order to use a team color. Lets say the comm has an option where he can change the color of his team (upon spawning). He can do that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It wouldn't be as effective, but it would also be less disorienting and incoherent. I'm not advocating arm-bands specifically, I'm saying there needs be a balance between readability and ditinguishability. Maybe the armour colorisation would do, maybe just parts of it, maybe none at all... Oh, speaking of, maybe we could change the colour of marine's holo-visor based on their squad: it shouldn't be too confusing, it has informative value, and it's easily noticable. Or something to that effect.
The general functionality would certainly be great for mods even if it doesn't see official support, so there's that.
This is true. I've always had a difficult time keeping track of squad mates. Some way of instantly and visually recognizing members of different squads would be good.
That's a great idea. It's subtle and a pretty solid way to distinguish your teammates as well as knowing what squad you are part of by simply tinting the players HUD. Especially since the visor is apparently part of the outside player model already this should be a piece of cake for them to try out.
What happens when you can't see their hud visor thing?. Instead it's be better if the crazy leds on the marines armor could just glow the squads color. This way if their facing away from you, then you can still figure it out.