locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1759334:date=Mar 14 2010, 01:08 AM:name=gamakun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gamakun @ Mar 14 2010, 01:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759334"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am interested in what happened at GDC.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is also relevant to my interests.
<!--quoteo(post=1759334:date=Mar 14 2010, 01:08 AM:name=gamakun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gamakun @ Mar 14 2010, 01:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759334"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am interested in what happened at GDC.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My bet is the video happened at GDC. Given the voices echo, the shuffling noises, and the vocabulary... it sounds a hell of a lot like a presentation.
Thanks guys for answering that question! Now I'm definitely going to have to read up on all of that. I wonder why the other modern engine sets haven't taken this route... It seems decently fast so far, and mapper intervention doesn't seem neccesary (where it was a good idea to manually optimize with culling volumes in UE) Will mappers have tools to override the culling?
I worry that this sort of culling will make clientside wallhacking easy to luascript even for beginners... seems like you could have model occlusion ignored from the culling process and see every unit on the map.
It feels so epic, good work UWE-Team. But some questions, will players not be rendered too? So whats happend if a player walks behind a corner and because of lag i see him later, will he be rendered? I have no clue about the occluder (rendering), i only use it in Source maps a bit. Anyway, i realy can´t wait to see the alpha, this game will rock if the gameplay is good, if not, lua is there, great!
@celewign Yes, cheaters everywhere, to bad but i am sure with these giant community, they will banned fast and there will be a lot of "anti-lua" cheat modes, and of course i guess the UWE team uses VAC which protect the game a bit ^^ But serious i am a bit "negativ" about lua, but i read its only serverside (you can´t change client side) so no problem with it.
@Italianmagic I wish they insert english subtitle because there a lot people not speaking good english, sometimes i can hard understand him. Because youtube has a "automatic" translator, which is okay but enough to understand it. At the ending the translator say "for a single mother*s dream of " LOL (modders dream) see not only me don´t understand it ^^ Serious, watching the video with these translated Text is so funny i can´t stop laughing. <a href="http://i41.tinypic.com/jzh7vb.jpg" target="_blank">Another example</a>, or "rendering a friend" (rendering a frame)
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--fonto:Times New Roman--><span style="font-family:Times New Roman"><!--/fonto--><b>Now show us the Fade ^^</b><!--fontc--></span><!--/fontc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--quoteo(post=1759346:date=Mar 14 2010, 07:59 AM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (steppin'razor @ Mar 14 2010, 07:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759346"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Turned the caption option on with the youtube video and sat laughing for the whole two minutes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-WildCat-Cape Town, South AfricaJoin Date: 2008-07-19Member: 64664Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=Mar 13 2010:name=NS2 on Twitter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2 on Twitter @ Mar 13 2010)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->New 2-minute engine video posted discussing some of our engine tech: <a href="http://bit.ly/aGypUP" target="_blank">http://bit.ly/aGypUP</a> (warning: fairly technical but pretty)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh yeah, baby! I like 'em technical. Hot! Keep 'em coming. :D
Now ... answer my hot, sexy, technical <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=108530" target="_blank">question about OpenAL</a>! :P
<!--quoteo(post=1759315:date=Mar 14 2010, 05:04 AM:name=Stardog)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stardog @ Mar 14 2010, 05:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759315"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One thing I'm still seeing is the shadows fading in. I've been worried about this since the editor was released, especially considering you're not using visportals to let the mapper have control of performance.
Note 1:35-1:36. The skulk will only be in shadow if the marines are close.
Is there more work to do to adjust this?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I noticed that at 1:35-1:36 as well. However, I couldn't find any other instances of it.
<!--quoteo(post=1759340:date=Mar 14 2010, 09:15 AM:name=celewign)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (celewign @ Mar 14 2010, 09:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759340"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I worry that this sort of culling will make clientside wallhacking easy to luascript even for beginners... seems like you could have model occlusion ignored from the culling process and see every unit on the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If I remember rightly, the LUA script is for setting up game-specific behaviour and logic and not for rendering. If anyone knows more about this, correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think anything presented in that video will be any more "hackable" than any other engines used in the FPS genre.
Obviously this level is a work in progress but the entire time I was thinking to myself "the lighting cannot actually be like that, it'll get brighter soon" but it seemed to only ever get darker. A well lit environment is critical to gameplay and dark areas should be rare. If this is the actual maps lighting then I hope every possible command to adjust video settings is inside the game through menus in order to avoid more advanced players from editing .cfg or .ini files to gain an advantage.
I'm sure that sounds obvious, however, Battlefield: Bad Company 2 forces players to play with bloom on, unless you know to go into your settings.ini and switch it to false. It's ridiculous that a game made and published by established professionals wouldn't have that option available to everyone so I feel the need to bring it up here. In B:BC2 playing with bloom on is a significant disadvantage due to how levels are constructed with lots of desert/winter environments.
/edit: watched video again and for some reason it doesn't seem as dark as I originally thought. Maybe I was at a strange angle to my monitor and didn't realize it? While I still found the lighting insufficient for my personal tastes it's not like it's pitch black.
Very nice job MAX and I understood it too, I love the technical aspects of the game engines and such and you explained it very well. I wanted to ask, how big the map file would be for a level like that?
I was allso wondering , will this have problem when in spectator mod? I mean if your spectating somebody and then quickly change to another view of another player across the map will objects, props start appearing in front of you?
<!--quoteo(post=1759355:date=Mar 14 2010, 03:09 PM:name=rammaj)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rammaj @ Mar 14 2010, 03:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759355"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Very nice job MAX and I understood it too, I love the technical aspects of the game engines and such and you explained it very well. I wanted to ask, how big the map file would be for a level like that?
I was allso wondering , will this have problem when in spectator mod? I mean if your spectating somebody and then quickly change to another view of another player across the map will objects, props start appearing in front of you?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There will as much problem with props appearing as in for example in TF2. In bsp maps level creators have to manually create <a href="http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Area_portal" target="_blank">Area Portals</a> to seal rooms and enviroments prevent engine rendering whole map. Seems like in NS2 engine will do this automaticly, which will be much better than checking the right place for the Area Portals everytime.
So no, there won't be any props appearing in front of you suddenly or out of nowhere.
"We want to make sure that the engine is well-suited to anything we do down the road... or <!--coloro:hotpink--><span style="color:hotpink"><!--/coloro-->anything that single mothers dream of<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->."
<!--quoteo(post=1759354:date=Mar 14 2010, 01:06 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Mar 14 2010, 01:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759354"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Obviously this level is a work in progress but the entire time I was thinking to myself "the lighting cannot actually be like that, it'll get brighter soon" but it seemed to only ever get darker. A well lit environment is critical to gameplay and dark areas should be rare. If this is the actual maps lighting then I hope every possible command to adjust video settings is inside the game through menus in order to avoid more advanced players from editing .cfg or .ini files to gain an advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd assume that is the real lighting level of the map and that it isn't too dark. If you watch the video properly, there is no harsh shadowing and lights are set to false. Those area's can be seen on the alpha gameplay video, just to confirm that.
Is this (hardware-level) CHC++ done with ASIC or general-purpose microprocessors?
Yeah, I'm really happy for the mappers that there's no need to compile the map again and vis, lighting etc. can be calculated on-the-fly. However computing stuff on-the-fly still reduces FPS so I'd happy hear if the game can cache vis data somehow?
I wonder how hard that occlusion bit is to code. I work on a project, and something like that would really be nice. Especially since using tricks like area portals isn't feasible since we're using large, open, outdoor environments. Parts of which are occluded by large, mountain terrain or deep chasms.
It may not be good for more casual users, but I like getting down and dirty into the technical stuff. I like to see the way other people make their things because it helps me make mine better. All that aside I am really glad at the way you all did this. No compile time but great performance. <!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->(Still Need Terrain Though!)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1759364:date=Mar 14 2010, 04:06 PM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price @ Mar 14 2010, 04:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759364"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some thing i can´t understand are the place for aliens. I see nowhere any place to hide, or is it just me? <i><-- look at the over head layout when it zooms out, and the wireframe. Above the corridors and there are lot's of walls to hide behind</i> No Vents for example. <i><-- none that we see straight away, but I am sure there is some there</i>
And can a skulk walk on all these "props/models"? <i><-- yes</i> I mean there are a lot of them and i guess they will use invisible spaces for skulks? <i><-- to me that makes no sense</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm lazy and replied in the quote for you. When I feel less tired I may make an image illustrating the points, only if people feel the same and need it explained.
<!--quoteo(post=1759354:date=Mar 14 2010, 02:06 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Mar 14 2010, 02:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759354"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Obviously this level is a work in progress but the entire time I was thinking to myself "the lighting cannot actually be like that, it'll get brighter soon" but it seemed to only ever get darker. A well lit environment is critical to gameplay and dark areas should be rare. If this is the actual maps lighting then I hope every possible command to adjust video settings is inside the game through menus in order to avoid more advanced players from editing .cfg or .ini files to gain an advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It shouldn't be critical to gameplay. My NS1 is darker than this (it's the way it's meant to be playedâ„¢, I even used that gamma thing that was bundled with 1.0x) and I can play just fine. Of course, I am at a disadvantage in some dark areas (think hera maint corridor), but I consider that as the way it was designed. Else why not just do everything look like Eclipse MS?
Ultimately, I believe that a game should be designed so as that there is no need to tweak for an advantage.
edit: Also, don't forget that there is a power grid, maybe here the lighting just isn't powered up? I agree that it's in the darker side of the spectrum, so I think it fits in a zone where lighting is broken/on emergency power.
<!--quoteo(post=1759364:date=Mar 14 2010, 11:06 AM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price @ Mar 14 2010, 11:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759364"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some thing i can´t understand are the place for aliens. I see nowhere any place to hide, or is it just me? No Vents for example.
And can a skulk walk on all these "props/models"? I mean there are a lot of them and i guess they will use invisible spaces for skulks?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ya the map is weird. I almost wonder if it's just a test map.. and not actually a level that anyone will "play". Maybe it will be in the engine test, because it is cool to walk through... but as a NS map for actually playing in... i'm not so sure.
<!--quoteo(post=1759415:date=Mar 14 2010, 04:46 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Mar 14 2010, 04:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759415"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ya the map is weird. I almost wonder if it's just a test map.. and not actually a level that anyone will "play". Maybe it will be in the engine test, because it is cool to walk through... but as a NS map for actually playing in... i'm not so sure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This map is indeed part of the engine test, and not an actual NS2 level.
Comments
"But why should should that stop us from creating a video..."
This is also relevant to my interests.
My bet is the video happened at GDC. Given the voices echo, the shuffling noises, and the vocabulary... it sounds a hell of a lot like a presentation.
Now I'm definitely going to have to read up on all of that.
I wonder why the other modern engine sets haven't taken this route...
It seems decently fast so far, and mapper intervention doesn't seem neccesary (where it was a good idea to manually optimize with culling volumes in UE)
Will mappers have tools to override the culling?
But some questions, will players not be rendered too?
So whats happend if a player walks behind a corner and because of lag i see him later, will he be rendered?
I have no clue about the occluder (rendering), i only use it in Source maps a bit.
Anyway, i realy can´t wait to see the alpha, this game will rock if the gameplay is good, if not, lua is there, great!
@celewign
Yes, cheaters everywhere, to bad but i am sure with these giant community, they will banned fast and there will be a lot of "anti-lua" cheat modes, and of course i guess the UWE team uses VAC which protect the game a bit ^^
But serious i am a bit "negativ" about lua, but i read its only serverside (you can´t change client side) so no problem with it.
@Italianmagic
I wish they insert english subtitle because there a lot people not speaking good english, sometimes i can hard understand him.
Because youtube has a "automatic" translator, which is okay but enough to understand it.
At the ending the translator say "for a single mother*s dream of " LOL (modders dream) see not only me don´t understand it ^^
Serious, watching the video with these translated Text is so funny i can´t stop laughing.
<a href="http://i41.tinypic.com/jzh7vb.jpg" target="_blank">Another example</a>, or "rendering a friend" (rendering a frame)
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--fonto:Times New Roman--><span style="font-family:Times New Roman"><!--/fonto--><b>Now show us the Fade ^^</b><!--fontc--></span><!--/fontc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
this is our f******* sexy map with sexy colour coded mesh.
can't wait for the engine test reeeeoow!
Haha, that was hilarious!
Oh yeah, baby! I like 'em technical. Hot! Keep 'em coming. :D
Now ... answer my hot, sexy, technical <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=108530" target="_blank">question about OpenAL</a>! :P
<!--quoteo(post=1759315:date=Mar 14 2010, 05:04 AM:name=Stardog)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stardog @ Mar 14 2010, 05:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759315"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One thing I'm still seeing is the shadows fading in. I've been worried about this since the editor was released, especially considering you're not using visportals to let the mapper have control of performance.
Note 1:35-1:36. The skulk will only be in shadow if the marines are close.
Is there more work to do to adjust this?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I noticed that at 1:35-1:36 as well. However, I couldn't find any other instances of it.
<!--quoteo(post=1759340:date=Mar 14 2010, 09:15 AM:name=celewign)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (celewign @ Mar 14 2010, 09:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759340"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I worry that this sort of culling will make clientside wallhacking easy to luascript even for beginners... seems like you could have model occlusion ignored from the culling process and see every unit on the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I remember rightly, the LUA script is for setting up game-specific behaviour and logic and not for rendering. If anyone knows more about this, correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think anything presented in that video will be any more "hackable" than any other engines used in the FPS genre.
I'm sure that sounds obvious, however, Battlefield: Bad Company 2 forces players to play with bloom on, unless you know to go into your settings.ini and switch it to false. It's ridiculous that a game made and published by established professionals wouldn't have that option available to everyone so I feel the need to bring it up here. In B:BC2 playing with bloom on is a significant disadvantage due to how levels are constructed with lots of desert/winter environments.
/edit: watched video again and for some reason it doesn't seem as dark as I originally thought. Maybe I was at a strange angle to my monitor and didn't realize it? While I still found the lighting insufficient for my personal tastes it's not like it's pitch black.
I wanted to ask, how big the map file would be for a level like that?
I was allso wondering , will this have problem when in spectator mod? I mean if your spectating somebody and then quickly change to another view of another player across the map will objects, props start appearing in front of you?
I wanted to ask, how big the map file would be for a level like that?
I was allso wondering , will this have problem when in spectator mod? I mean if your spectating somebody and then quickly change to another view of another player across the map will objects, props start appearing in front of you?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There will as much problem with props appearing as in for example in TF2. In bsp maps level creators have to manually create <a href="http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Area_portal" target="_blank">Area Portals</a> to seal rooms and enviroments prevent engine rendering whole map. Seems like in NS2 engine will do this automaticly, which will be much better than checking the right place for the Area Portals everytime.
So no, there won't be any props appearing in front of you suddenly or out of nowhere.
"We want to make sure that the engine is well-suited to anything we do down the road...
or <!--coloro:hotpink--><span style="color:hotpink"><!--/coloro-->anything that single mothers dream of<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->."
geez, Max... that's... something special.
I'd assume that is the real lighting level of the map and that it isn't too dark. If you watch the video properly, there is no harsh shadowing and lights are set to false. Those area's can be seen on the alpha gameplay video, just to confirm that.
I see nowhere any place to hide, or is it just me?
No Vents for example.
And can a skulk walk on all these "props/models"?
I mean there are a lot of them and i guess they will use invisible spaces for skulks?
Is this (hardware-level) CHC++ done with ASIC or general-purpose microprocessors?
Yeah, I'm really happy for the mappers that there's no need to compile the map again and vis, lighting etc. can be calculated on-the-fly. However computing stuff on-the-fly still reduces FPS so I'd happy hear if the game can cache vis data somehow?
Lol, I laughed my ass off to this
<!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->(Still Need Terrain Though!)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I see nowhere any place to hide, or is it just me? <i><-- look at the over head layout when it zooms out, and the wireframe. Above the corridors and there are lot's of walls to hide behind</i>
No Vents for example. <i><-- none that we see straight away, but I am sure there is some there</i>
And can a skulk walk on all these "props/models"? <i><-- yes</i>
I mean there are a lot of them and i guess they will use invisible spaces for skulks? <i><-- to me that makes no sense</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm lazy and replied in the quote for you. When I feel less tired I may make an image illustrating the points, only if people feel the same and need it explained.
It shouldn't be critical to gameplay. My NS1 is darker than this (it's the way it's meant to be playedâ„¢, I even used that gamma thing that was bundled with 1.0x) and I can play just fine. Of course, I am at a disadvantage in some dark areas (think hera maint corridor), but I consider that as the way it was designed. Else why not just do everything look like Eclipse MS?
Ultimately, I believe that a game should be designed so as that there is no need to tweak for an advantage.
edit: Also, don't forget that there is a power grid, maybe here the lighting just isn't powered up? I agree that it's in the darker side of the spectrum, so I think it fits in a zone where lighting is broken/on emergency power.
I see nowhere any place to hide, or is it just me?
No Vents for example.
And can a skulk walk on all these "props/models"?
I mean there are a lot of them and i guess they will use invisible spaces for skulks?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ya the map is weird. I almost wonder if it's just a test map.. and not actually a level that anyone will "play". Maybe it will be in the engine test, because it is cool to walk through... but as a NS map for actually playing in... i'm not so sure.
This map is indeed part of the engine test, and not an actual NS2 level.