<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>/!\ SUMMARY /!\ </b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> On the last episode....
Issue starts <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=109124&view=findpost&p=1760719" target="_blank">here</a> (which, tbh, states quite the obvious but well...)
Look at this dude trying to sound smart. Who are you trying to impress?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People capable of processing an independent thought and not just hypocritical group-conformity high-school nonsense, possibly. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and then flamewar happened.
Also one of the troll happened here :
<!--quoteo(post=1760692:date=Mar 22 2010, 05:28 PM:name=Silver_Fox)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Silver_Fox @ Mar 22 2010, 05:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1760692"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lol @ this thread.
How is the weather up there?
There is no person who is better or more qualified to suggest changes to the game than anyone else. My girlfriends 11 year old is as qualified to make suggestions to the game than the most bad-assed competitive or pub player here.
Why? (...)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which was answered several times as marks said. But unfortunately Draco_2k seems to have not seen the answers ( although linked by marks ) and has brought up the above argument once more.
<!--quoteo(post=1760878:date=Mar 23 2010, 11:55 PM:name=huhuh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huhuh @ Mar 23 2010, 11:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1760878"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and then flamewar happened.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe it started after the purple-tinted post, but let's not start counting that which can bite off your fingers.
Oh and, you're quoting anachronistically, because that reply was well after Silver Fox had posted. Indeed it was in reply to my reply to that post.
<!--quoteo(post=1760878:date=Mar 23 2010, 11:55 PM:name=huhuh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huhuh @ Mar 23 2010, 11:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1760878"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which was answered several times as marks said. But unfortunately Draco_2k seems to have not seen the answers ( although linked by marks ) and has brought up the above argument once more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I do not agree with Silver Fox, and have replied to his post accordingly. What?..
<!--quoteo(post=1760878:date=Mar 23 2010, 11:55 PM:name=huhuh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huhuh @ Mar 23 2010, 11:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1760878"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're welcome<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanks a bunch. Now let's forget about what happened.
You posted your opinion that no 'group' is more or less qualified than the other to propose changes to the game. I linked two posts, which I will quote here just so its idiot-proof:
<!--quoteo(post=1760701:date=Mar 22 2010, 11:02 PM:name=Voyager I)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Voyager I @ Mar 22 2010, 11:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1760701"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyone can identify an issue with game (doing X is boring, fighting Y is too hard, I keep getting lost, etc), since those are defined primarily by their own experiences.
However, actually suggesting a useful solution will most likely demand an understanding of the game and its interactions. Someone without that insight is likely to come up with solutions to their problems that create bigger problems in other places, simply because they don't know how elements of the game interact.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1760702:date=Mar 22 2010, 11:04 PM:name=a_civilian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (a_civilian @ Mar 22 2010, 11:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1760702"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Qualified in what sense? Anyone can make a suggestion, but it is obvious that someone with a better understanding of the game will on average make better suggestions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Both of these are logically correct, and undermine the presumption your opinion is based on (namely that everybody is equally good at these things). Competetive players (which I define as players which actively or have formerly played in a competetive environment, and have a deep understanding of both the gameplay mechanics aswell as the metagame) simply are more qualified to make suggestions on certain aspects of the game. Likewise, in this post previously in the thread:
<!--quoteo(post=1760705:date=Mar 22 2010, 11:19 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Mar 22 2010, 11:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1760705"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In some respects I agree. Neither the "competitive" players nor the "casual" players should dictate a game like this. They both have merits as well as huge blind spots. Also, this game is not being designed for one at the exclusion of the other (unlike say Farmville).
That being said, there are many parties who should be listened to for specific things and all opinions weighed. Competitive players have a very strong sense of balance, counters, strategic development, and what it takes to keep competitive players interested. Casuals have a stronger idea of a new player's experience, which is what you need to consider when trying to engage new players to join your playerbase. I for one almost never listen to casual players about balance, they just don't see it the way I do or those I respect do. However, I also listen intently when they talk about the entry barriers or basic gameplay transparency because they're the ones who have trouble with it first hand.
So, in general, no one should be the sole voice for the game. No one should be prematurely excluded. However, certain parties excel at certain things and that should still be taken into account.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
pretty much sums up my opinion on the matter, and I do agree entirely with points made therein.
Basically, you seem to be implying that random pub players opinions on strategy and balance changes should have equal weight to those of seasoned competetive players (and vice versa jaded comp players discussing new player experience and the 'fun' factor). This is just wrong, has been proven fairly conclusively as such many times in this thread, and you dont seem to be able to accept that.
<!--quoteo(post=1760882:date=Mar 24 2010, 12:02 AM:name=marks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (marks @ Mar 24 2010, 12:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1760882"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You posted your opinion that no 'group' is more or less qualified than the other to propose changes to the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This was not the post you originally replied to.
No group from the pool of exclusively "pub" and "comp" players, in the context of prior discussion. You're quoting replies to the post I myself disagreed with, and <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=10649&view=findpost&p=1760706" target="_blank">replied to accordingly</a>.
<!--quoteo(post=1760884:date=Mar 23 2010, 09:12 PM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Mar 23 2010, 09:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1760884"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This was not the post you originally replied to.
No group from the pool of "pub" and "comp", in the context of prior discussion. You're quoting replies to the post I myself disagreed with, and <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=10649&view=findpost&p=1760706" target="_blank">replied to</a> accordingly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
link =
The error returned was: Sorry, the link that brought you to this page seems to be out of date or broken.
InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
edited March 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1760873:date=Mar 23 2010, 08:47 PM:name=Phase)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Phase @ Mar 23 2010, 08:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1760873"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can we just close this thread?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes.
Draco_2k and marks - Your bickering is approaching the level of a vendetta. Your apparent need to prove each other wrong has led to the pair of you blindly leading this thread right off course, and I don't see the value in issuing another warning just so that you two can get back into it.
Comments
</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
On the last episode....
Issue starts <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=109124&view=findpost&p=1760719" target="_blank">here</a>
(which, tbh, states quite the obvious but well...)
and then
<!--quoteo(post=1760775:date=Mar 23 2010, 06:37 AM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Mar 23 2010, 06:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1760775"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=1760728:date=Mar 22 2010, 08:34 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Mar 22 2010, 08:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1760728"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
/\
|
|
Look at this dude trying to sound smart. Who are you trying to impress?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People capable of processing an independent thought and not just hypocritical group-conformity high-school nonsense, possibly.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and then flamewar happened.
Also one of the troll happened here :
<!--quoteo(post=1760692:date=Mar 22 2010, 05:28 PM:name=Silver_Fox)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Silver_Fox @ Mar 22 2010, 05:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1760692"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lol @ this thread.
How is the weather up there?
There is no person who is better or more qualified to suggest changes to the game than anyone else. My girlfriends 11 year old is as qualified to make suggestions to the game than the most bad-assed competitive or pub player here.
Why? (...)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which was answered several times as marks said. But unfortunately Draco_2k seems to have not seen the answers ( although linked by marks ) and has brought up the above argument once more.
You're welcome
I believe it started after the purple-tinted post, but let's not start counting that which can bite off your fingers.
Oh and, you're quoting anachronistically, because that reply was well after Silver Fox had posted. Indeed it was in reply to my reply to that post.
<!--quoteo(post=1760878:date=Mar 23 2010, 11:55 PM:name=huhuh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huhuh @ Mar 23 2010, 11:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1760878"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which was answered several times as marks said. But unfortunately Draco_2k seems to have not seen the answers ( although linked by marks ) and has brought up the above argument once more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do not agree with Silver Fox, and have replied to his post accordingly. What?..
<!--quoteo(post=1760878:date=Mar 23 2010, 11:55 PM:name=huhuh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huhuh @ Mar 23 2010, 11:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1760878"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're welcome<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks a bunch. Now let's forget about what happened.
<!--quoteo(post=1760701:date=Mar 22 2010, 11:02 PM:name=Voyager I)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Voyager I @ Mar 22 2010, 11:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1760701"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyone can identify an issue with game (doing X is boring, fighting Y is too hard, I keep getting lost, etc), since those are defined primarily by their own experiences.
However, actually suggesting a useful solution will most likely demand an understanding of the game and its interactions. Someone without that insight is likely to come up with solutions to their problems that create bigger problems in other places, simply because they don't know how elements of the game interact.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1760702:date=Mar 22 2010, 11:04 PM:name=a_civilian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (a_civilian @ Mar 22 2010, 11:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1760702"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Qualified in what sense? Anyone can make a suggestion, but it is obvious that someone with a better understanding of the game will on average make better suggestions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Both of these are logically correct, and undermine the presumption your opinion is based on (namely that everybody is equally good at these things). Competetive players (which I define as players which actively or have formerly played in a competetive environment, and have a deep understanding of both the gameplay mechanics aswell as the metagame) simply are more qualified to make suggestions on certain aspects of the game. Likewise, in this post previously in the thread:
<!--quoteo(post=1760705:date=Mar 22 2010, 11:19 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Mar 22 2010, 11:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1760705"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In some respects I agree. Neither the "competitive" players nor the "casual" players should dictate a game like this. They both have merits as well as huge blind spots. Also, this game is not being designed for one at the exclusion of the other (unlike say Farmville).
That being said, there are many parties who should be listened to for specific things and all opinions weighed. Competitive players have a very strong sense of balance, counters, strategic development, and what it takes to keep competitive players interested. Casuals have a stronger idea of a new player's experience, which is what you need to consider when trying to engage new players to join your playerbase. I for one almost never listen to casual players about balance, they just don't see it the way I do or those I respect do. However, I also listen intently when they talk about the entry barriers or basic gameplay transparency because they're the ones who have trouble with it first hand.
So, in general, no one should be the sole voice for the game. No one should be prematurely excluded. However, certain parties excel at certain things and that should still be taken into account.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
pretty much sums up my opinion on the matter, and I do agree entirely with points made therein.
Basically, you seem to be implying that random pub players opinions on strategy and balance changes should have equal weight to those of seasoned competetive players (and vice versa jaded comp players discussing new player experience and the 'fun' factor). This is just wrong, has been proven fairly conclusively as such many times in this thread, and you dont seem to be able to accept that.
This was not the post you originally replied to.
No group from the pool of exclusively "pub" and "comp" players, in the context of prior discussion. You're quoting replies to the post I myself disagreed with, and <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=10649&view=findpost&p=1760706" target="_blank">replied to accordingly</a>.
No group from the pool of "pub" and "comp", in the context of prior discussion. You're quoting replies to the post I myself disagreed with, and <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=10649&view=findpost&p=1760706" target="_blank">replied to</a> accordingly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
link =
The error returned was:
Sorry, the link that brought you to this page seems to be out of date or broken.
Yes.
Draco_2k and marks - Your bickering is approaching the level of a vendetta. Your apparent need to prove each other wrong has led to the pair of you blindly leading this thread right off course, and I don't see the value in issuing another warning just so that you two can get back into it.