Dwarf Fortress: New Version Released

Faskalia

<div class="IPBDescription">Fun Inside. And Links as well</div>A new Version of Dwarf Fortress has been released.
Get it here:
<a href="http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/" target="_blank">http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/</a>

And read the wiki changelog here:
<a href="http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Release_Information" target="_blank">http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Release_Information</a>

For those of you that still have trouble with the interface and/or graphics there are 2 fantastic tools out there;

Stonesense:
Creates an isometric view of your fortress, but has not been updated to work with the latest release.
For screens and more info visit:
<a href="http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=43260.0" target="_blank">http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=43260.0</a>
If you want to try stonesense download 40d19 here:
<a href="http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=50514" target="_blank">http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=50514</a>
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/ttDya.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />

Dwarf Therapist:
Allows you to easily manage dwarf labour among other things, a stable relase for 31.02 and 31.01 ist out, but not for 31.03 yet :)
For screens and more info visit:
<a href="http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=39229" target="_blank">http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=39229</a>
<img src="http://dwarftherapist.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/img/dt_alpha.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />

Dwarf Accelerator:
If you feel, that you need an FPS boost :D
READ THE INSTRUCTIONS CAREFULLY!
<a href="http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=51957.0" target="_blank">http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=51957.0</a>

And nope, this is not an Aprils Fools, although the new Version has been released 01.04.2010.

spellman23

Man.....

Now to see if my graphics set is compatible....

Draco_2k

I can't believe this is still going. Then again, there's a good reason.

I wish there was some way to revert (upgrade?) to 8-bit, text graphics give me a headache. :(

Align

have you tried any of the many graphics tilesets

Retales

I'm having a dwarfgasm just reading the changelog.

I started a new fort, plunging head first into the fray without reading almost anything about the changes. I gave one dorf some medical skills, but apart from that I went with a standard build. We'll see how big a disaster this will be :T

briktal

<!--quoteo(post=1762267:date=Apr 2 2010, 04:54 AM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Apr 2 2010, 04:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1762267"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't believe this is still going. Then again, there's a good reason.

I wish there was some way to revert (upgrade?) to 8-bit, text graphics give me a headache. :(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--coloro:grey--><span style="color:grey"><!--/coloro-->But they are already 24 bit BMPs, shouldn't that be good enough for you.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

~~Sickle~~

DiscoZombie

Ah, the game I always wanted to love but always wind up just frustrated by. I simply can't stand putting hours or tens of hours into something just to have it destroyed in a freak accident or because of something I didn't get. It's why I'm awful at RTS games too. I hate building something great and having it destroyed. I guess I'm just a sore loser!

Chris0132

<!--quoteo(post=1762335:date=Apr 2 2010, 03:01 PM:name=DiscoZombie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DiscoZombie @ Apr 2 2010, 03:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1762335"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ah, the game I always wanted to love but always wind up just frustrated by. I simply can't stand putting hours or tens of hours into something just to have it destroyed in a freak accident or because of something I didn't get. It's why I'm awful at RTS games too. I hate building something great and having it destroyed. I guess I'm just a sore loser!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I'd say you were more normal, it isn't exactly reasonable to enjoy that.

For my money DF looks interesting but the interface is so godawful I doubt I'd be able to play it, regardless of how much I like that sort of game.

Also the guy making it has very odd priorities, apparently modelling each individual nose hair of every single expendable pleb in your fortress is more important than being able to see what you're doing.

lolfighter

His priorities actually make sense. Much of the inaccessibility of the game stems from the ridiculous complexity. Reducing one without reducing the other would be difficult. Meanwhile, the game has a steady fanbase willing to brave its complexities. Does he try to rope in more players at the risk of upsetting his fanbase, or does he add systems to the game that his players (and he himself) want? Seen from that perspective his priorities are less odd.

Chris0132

<!--quoteo(post=1762351:date=Apr 2 2010, 05:07 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Apr 2 2010, 05:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1762351"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->His priorities actually make sense. Much of the inaccessibility of the game stems from the ridiculous complexity. Reducing one without reducing the other would be difficult. Meanwhile, the game has a steady fanbase willing to brave its complexities. Does he try to rope in more players at the risk of upsetting his fanbase, or does he add systems to the game that his players (and he himself) want? Seen from that perspective his priorities are less odd.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Complexity is not neccesarily a problem, the inaccessibility stems from the abysmal interface, the game needs 3d graphics, by which I mean it needs to be able to show a 3 dimensional world, you can do that however you like, from simple polygons to an NES style isometric sprite system, but it needs to display them and it also needs to support point and click properly, as well as having a properly readable display where you can see what things are.

Otherwise it's like trying to play homeworld using an MRI machine, only being able to see one horizontal slice of a game which uses so much 3d, and having everything represented by inscrutible symbols rather than proper icons is ridiculous.

Also I find it hard to believe that anybody who plays it gets immense satisfaction from having spleen failure accurately modelled or fifty million types of rock that all do the same thing.

Nice open ended construction game with a hell of a lot to do in it and a decent resource management system: Grand fun.

Spending your time waiting for the game to finish simulating the vital functions of every single cat in the fortress: Really, REALLY stupid.

lolfighter

Again, those are your priorities, not those of the typical DF player or programmer. They're what you want the most. They're what DF players want too, but those are not our top priorities. We want expanded gameplay, we want common problems (like the catsplosion you mentioned) fixed. We want things to do with our large armies that just sit around idle most of the time. We DO want changes and improvements to an interface that we've learned to live with, we just don't want it that badly. And apparently, what we want carries greater weight with Toady than what you want.

Thansal

I would say that the top priority is what Toady wants. He is catering to a very specific audience, specifically people like him.

When you read/hear interviews with him you see that is basically all started as him designing something he was interested in. He does it full time because enough people are interested in it to give him donations that he can support himself.

Really, if you don't get the appeal of the game, you aren't the target market. It's like saying "barbie horse adventures is a horrible idea, no one is interested in horses, or at least not if you don't get to ride down on people wielding a giant sword".

side note:
I'm not the target audience either, but I'm not the right group for playing sim city either.

spellman23

<!--quoteo(post=1762377:date=Apr 2 2010, 12:06 PM:name=Thansal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thansal @ Apr 2 2010, 12:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1762377"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would say that the top priority is what Toady wants. He is catering to a very specific audience, specifically people like him.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Yeah.

I actually got pretty good with the interface once I loaded in a graphic tileset so that I could tell what all the symbols meant (it appears they all broke for DF2010). Also, being forced to learn what feed what using the DwarfFortress Wiki is annoying, but trying to cram all that into the help pages would be insane and a chore to read anyways (plus no search feature).

However, I can see how many would be turned away purely by the UI. I personally am able to get past it (and it's one of those learning curve things). Heck, my first 3 forts I intentionally flooded to start a new one and to see what would happen (somehow I got past the winter one all 3, yay helpful Wiki builds).

Swiftspear

Well, I've died once so far. I guess it's fun to lose...

[edit] From a technical standpoint, it's virtually impossible to make dwarf fortress 3D for a one man team with average art talent. The predecessor to DF was done in 3D, and the workload was so large the project was dumped. In dwarf fortress toady can develop a new unit or creature or item in basically the time it takes to define text for it, requiring art assets would take the process of developing new content from 10-30 minutes dependent on the content complexity, to easily hours at the least.

So if you say "the interface is bad" referring to the plethora of hot keys you have to remember, and the sprawling disorganized menus, ya, I'll agree with that, those will be fixed some day. But if you say "the interface is bad" referring to the graphics.... Suck it up, it will always be that way and it will never change. EVERY crappy indie development project out there puts WAY more effort into the art than need be and most of them don't hold that much in the end. Dwarf fortress, for game play, does more than any commercial strategy game I've ever played. I'd say Toady's priorities are EXACTLY right, because he's not making some little cruddy indie game, he's making something amazing that no one has ever done before. He SHOULD NOT be wasting his time worrying about art. If you're not going to play the game because of the graphics, meh, there's always someone who's going to dislike a game for any reason. At least, for what this game does do, there is no one else out there that comes even close to matching the scale.

Chris0132

<!--quoteo(post=1762377:date=Apr 2 2010, 07:06 PM:name=Thansal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thansal @ Apr 2 2010, 07:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1762377"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really, if you don't get the appeal of the game, you aren't the target market. It's like saying "barbie horse adventures is a horrible idea, no one is interested in horses, or at least not if you don't get to ride down on people wielding a giant sword".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

It's more like saying barbie horse adventure would be better if you could control the horse using WASD rather than programming it like a floor turtle, and if the pink sparkly heart decals were visible objects rather than a text description.

Which it would, regardless of whether you like the game to begin with, you would like it more with decent controls and graphical representations that communicate game elements quickly.

Some things are universal improvements, regardless of genre or tastes, universal improvements are always better than limited improvements.

Draco_2k

Come to think of it... We - possibly - do have the technology to bring something like DF to manageable graphical standards, using procedural content generation (which DF is built on already anyway) and proper tools. A-la <a href="http://www.quelsolaar.com/" target="_blank">Love</a>.

Granted, that's no one man's job. Even if it was for the aforementioned.

<!--quoteo(post=1762276:date=Apr 2 2010, 12:17 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Apr 2 2010, 12:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1762276"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->have you tried any of the many graphics tilesets<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Still mighty painful. DF doesn't seem to be particularly suited to this sort of thing.

Chris0132

It doesn't need to look amazing, with something as graphically defunct as DF the graphics are hardly needed for aesthetics, they're needed simply because graphics exist for a reason, so you can see what the hell you're doing.

You could go a long way to improving it by getting a proper tileset with something like 64x64px minumum per tile, shading them to indicate interior/exteior and incline/decline, as well as showing things downhill of your current layer but not obstructed by anything other than the air as being darker. That gives you a very basic 3d view where depth is roughly represented by darkness, as well as enough graphical room to make a somewhat intuitive representation of most objects in the game world. It'd be like playing dungeon keeper with the view locked to top down orthographic. Not as good as isometric but certainly passable and not far from the current implementation.

I don't expect miracles, just a bit less laziness when it comes to usability.

lolfighter

You're confusing laziness with priorities. For Toady and those who like and play DF, it's usable ENOUGH. Nobody will deny there's room for improvement, there are just so many other things we want to see improved first. "Clunky but functional" is good enough for the time being.

Swiftspear

Toady works LONG days on DF, I really don't think "laziness" is a fair statement.

You can't have a procedural world generator with a billion different factors if you're lazy.

sherpa

It doesn't need to be in 3D, it just needs to be clearer to look at. I've seen screenshots of DF posted here and it looks like someone fell asleep on their keyboard.

Disagree with the points about target audience though- it's like John Carmack saying "Daikatana wasn't bad- just the people who played it aren't the target audience".

I doubt any of the "target audience" aren't fazed by the UI or graphics, they've simply have the capacity to see past it.

lolfighter

Nobody claims that this is an easy game to learn or master. I think all of us remember perhaps not vividly but certainly abstractly the trepidation we approached the game with. We were not fazed to the point of giving up though. It's like skateboarding or unicycling. Most people can learn how to do it. Most people don't have the patience or pain tolerance to learn it though, but those who do tend to find it rewarding. And once mastered, it comes naturally to you. What looks like somebody ate the alphabet and then threw it up on a computer monitor to you looks like dwarves and workshops and dining halls and plump helmets to me. Oh, and war dogs. Gotta love those wardogs. All of the cute with a nasty bite too. Poor kobolds.

If it doesn't have to be 3D (and I'm willing to bet that making it 3D would be a huge project, compounded by Toady's complete lack of experience with 3D engines), tilesets seem like the answer. I've never used them myself so I can't vouch for them, but I'm told others have found the game to be much more palatable with a good tileset.

Also, the comparison with Daikatana is unjust. Not that I've ever played it (nor has nearly anyone who invokes it as the Unholy Grail of gaming), but Daikatana was a poor game whose big flaw was not being a poor game (those are a dime a dozen), but being ludicrously overhyped. I've yet to see a full-page ad proclaiming "ToadyOne's about to make you his ######."

spellman23

<!--quoteo(post=1762456:date=Apr 2 2010, 05:37 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Apr 2 2010, 05:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1762456"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nobody claims that this is an easy game to learn or master. I think all of us remember perhaps not vividly but certainly abstractly the trepidation we approached the game with. We were not fazed to the point of giving up though.
...
If it doesn't have to be 3D (and I'm willing to bet that making it 3D would be a huge project, compounded by Toady's complete lack of experience with 3D engines), tilesets seem like the answer. I've never used them myself so I can't vouch for them, but I'm told others have found the game to be much more palatable with a good tileset.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Being a somewhat noob at DF still, I must say I mostly bashed my head against it just to see what all the hype was about. And I must say it is indeed rewarding. I've finally gotten to the point where I can maintain a fortress without epic fail (well, year 2 or 3. Kobold invasions have just begun).

3D = no. The current slice system is easy enough to get through. I personally use tilesets and can vouch for how awesome they are.

DiscoZombie

Tilesets do help quite a bit. I understand that modeling a more complete simulated world and fixing bugs are Toady's top priority... however, and i think this is what Chris is trying to say too, it would take such a minuscule amount of effort to package in a couple (fan-created) tilesets, and an options menu so you don't have to edit the .ini file, and maybe some click-through menus so you don't need to remember all the hotkeys... maybe laziness isn't the right word, but maybe stubbornness is. He could draw in so many more fans if they weren't scared off right from the start because there's only ascii and no native tilesets, and no options, etc.

I mean, I guess he's saving the ease-of-use features to put in later if/when the game is ever "finished", since he doesn't know how much he's going to have to change between now and then so he doesn't want to put in menus that will be obsolete eventually... but really, are things like a tileset selector and options menu too much to ask -_-

Swiftspear

The graphics are fine. Play the game for a few hours and you're used to it, and it's not that hard a game to play for a few hours.

Yes, it's not ideal maybe for a player, you have to train your brain a little bit to associate X symbol with a character, but unless you're severely dyslexic, symbol recognition is something the brain is built do to exceedingly well. From a development perspective, dwarf fortress could not have been built in a more graphically rich environment. If toady had made that a requirement we would never have the game we have today.

NeonSpyder

When I initially started playing Dwarf Fortress I found it very difficult to navigate the interface and menu and had little to no idea what I /should/ be doing let alone how to do it! The GUI (or UI) was also a significant roadblock because even when I had become familiar with a concept of the game and it's components it was difficult to recognize exactly what everything represented and what it all meant. Was I under attack by goblins? Was I doing okay? Does that flashing blue down arrow mean my dwarf is tired or thirsty? Does a /brown/ arrow mean he needs to lie down or take a poo?

It's still awesome, but it has an EVE-sized learning-cliff.

Swiftspear

<!--quoteo(post=1762485:date=Apr 3 2010, 12:05 AM:name=NeonSpyder)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeonSpyder @ Apr 3 2010, 12:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1762485"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When I initially started playing Dwarf Fortress I found it very difficult to navigate the interface and menu and had little to no idea what I /should/ be doing let alone how to do it! The GUI (or UI) was also a significant roadblock because even when I had become familiar with a concept of the game and it's components it was difficult to recognize exactly what everything represented and what it all meant. Was I under attack by goblins? Was I doing okay? Does that flashing blue down arrow mean my dwarf is tired or thirsty? Does a /brown/ arrow mean he needs to lie down or take a poo?

It's still awesome, but it has an EVE-sized learning-cliff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most games have symbolic status effects, but I totally agree with the UI. The thing is, game features change so rapidly, the UI would be constantly getting rebuilt every version, so he just leaves it minimalist but functional.

That being said, I have no idea what the heck I'm doing in the military screen any more in the new version.

I'd really really love the UI to be improved, but I appreciate that game features take #1 priority.

The DF learning curve isn't THAT horrible, just play your first few games with the DF wiki open. It won't be too long before you'll be able to survive a little while.

lolfighter

I'd recommend our DF IRC channel except it's usually so inactive it wouldn't be much help. Chances are that there are other (hopefully helpful) channels out there. Having experienced players to ask for help is tremendously useful.

Retales

The irc channel is #ns-df @ Gamesurge. The channel is active when people are playing DF. For example now.

Once the military system is fixed of it's bugs, it's going to be magnificent. You can force dwarves to wear/equip specific items. No more locking champions in rooms to trick them to wear certain items :p

I'm loving the new underground stuff. I've found a few large caverns underground. There are lakes, underground forests and a magma sea. There's also some horrid Forgotten Ash beast lurking in the depths.

DiscoZombie

I've heard about some great bugs in this version, that only some people seem to get. For instance, temperatures are messed up for some people, such that they can swim comfortably in magma, but getting caught in the rain literally makes your dwarfs melt

Dirty_Harry_Potter

<!--quoteo(post=1762636:date=Apr 4 2010, 02:19 PM:name=DiscoZombie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DiscoZombie @ Apr 4 2010, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1762636"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've heard about some great bugs in this version, that only some people seem to get. For instance, temperatures are messed up for some people, such that they can swim comfortably in magma, but getting caught in the rain literally makes your dwarfs melt<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Aren't such silly situations part of the Dwarf Fortress™ experience!? :P

Like, that thing with your fortress succumbing to an excessive amount of cats?

Just to be clear, I'm not bashing the game. Though I must admit I too am stumped by the UI, and ASCII graphics, which is why I gave up shortly after trying the game out for a while. But the stories of people's forts I've heard about are just wonderful. I wish I had the 'stamina' to work my way through the learning curve.

But I suppose the thing with cats is just silly in an entertaining way, while the magma-rain thing is silly in a broken way.

spellman23

<!--quoteo(post=1762651:date=Apr 4 2010, 09:44 AM:name=Dirty_Harry_Potter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dirty_Harry_Potter @ Apr 4 2010, 09:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1762651"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Like, that thing with your fortress succumbing to an excessive amount of cats?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

One of my first things after getting food supply up and running is have my carpenter build a wooden cage to store all the kitties.