Multi-Tiered Maps
GingerGiant
Join Date: 2010-04-03 Member: 71157Members
Join Date: 2010-04-03 Member: 71157Members
<div class="IPBDescription">It's like icing layers on an editing cake.</div>[EDIT]: All right, I figured out what I really want to address:
By providing the map editors a way to determine the what parts of the map are drawn for the commander view, we can save the developers from writing a complex algorithm that determines what parts of the ceiling to cut off for a commander's bird's-eye view.
My solution is to let the map editors draw a plane (or several planes welded together) to define what areas of the map are drawn for the commander's overhead view. The map editors can intuitively work around complex architecture that would otherwise cause problems for an automated solution. This would be a lot simpler to deal with if every ceiling was completely flat, but even flat ceilings have props and pipes and vents and such. It could also be used to hide certain details from the commanders view, like the insides of vents.
In-game, the plane would render all the architecture above the area it occupies invisible to commanders, like taking the roof off a doll house.
To put it in a metaphor, pretend the map is a big solid cake. It's also marbled and delicious. The dilemna: I want to see the marbled patterns on the inside. What do I do? Slice the cake with horizontal planes.
If I had the chance, I'd change the name of this topic to "Commander View & Complex Architecture"
By providing the map editors a way to determine the what parts of the map are drawn for the commander view, we can save the developers from writing a complex algorithm that determines what parts of the ceiling to cut off for a commander's bird's-eye view.
My solution is to let the map editors draw a plane (or several planes welded together) to define what areas of the map are drawn for the commander's overhead view. The map editors can intuitively work around complex architecture that would otherwise cause problems for an automated solution. This would be a lot simpler to deal with if every ceiling was completely flat, but even flat ceilings have props and pipes and vents and such. It could also be used to hide certain details from the commanders view, like the insides of vents.
In-game, the plane would render all the architecture above the area it occupies invisible to commanders, like taking the roof off a doll house.
To put it in a metaphor, pretend the map is a big solid cake. It's also marbled and delicious. The dilemna: I want to see the marbled patterns on the inside. What do I do? Slice the cake with horizontal planes.
If I had the chance, I'd change the name of this topic to "Commander View & Complex Architecture"
Comments
Fortunately, I have a solution:
Let players define different floors for the commander's view by creating "camera planes". The way I envision it, players create camera planes within their maps, like icing between layers of a cake. In-game, the commander's camera uses the camera plane as the area it tracks. Anything below the plane is visible, while everything above doesn't get drawn for the commander. By inclining portions of the camera plane, the mapper can move the commander's camera up and down inclines. As the mapper defines camera planes, floors are defined for the commander to look on. Being able to mold the planes allows the mapper to work the camera around architecture that would otherwise unnecessarily obscure the commander's vision. Did I mention that the engine doesn't need to work as hard?
To put it in a metaphor, pretend the map is a big solid cake. It's also marbled and delicious. The dilemna: I want to see the marbled patterns on the inside. What do I do? Slice the cake with horizontal planes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think your idea is exactly what people are implying as obvious. I mean how could you explore a map floor by floor (with hot keys or some other 3d-space-navigator approach) without being able to view one floor at a time. (btw the commander should also have a way to zoom in our out, and if need be to have his view follow an object/player, all the while not zooming into a floor above or below... that follows with your idea right :P)
So i disagree. The real problem (for us, assuming our opinions count for how the UI is implemented) is not how the developers decide to cull the floors (which is not like a cake, and more like your not rendering objects and floors you decide aren't important), but rather what is the most cleanest simplest obvious way to quickly traverse the environment (which i think is having a sidebar with mini NS1 minimaps with simple objects to indicate a floor with activity that the commander can click any one of those N number of previews, and have his big view see that floor at that spot... or any of the other suggestions people have on this topic... hotkeys, mouse wheels etc).
The problem with multiple level maps is that to traverse the vertical space, you need to use one of three things; stairs, ladders, or elevators.
Ladders are terrible, they are impossible to fight on, have all the same problems as a tiny corridor, and are impossible for some aliens to use.
Stairwells are more or less the same, except stairs are some of the most dense geometry possible so they eat FPS at the same time, and you need to make several flights to get anywhere.
Elevators are the least intrusive but their special nature means they rapidly become chokepoints, and they are so easy to camp that it ruins any sort of progression in the way the sides fight.
The only way to avert this is to use large, gentle ramps. And for that you have no reason to do layer over layer maps, just make the ramp go to a new area to the side.
A small amount of vertical changes are good, for example a large room can have a limited second floor using catwalks, and large rooms can also be first floor on one side and second floor on the other, or have second floor areas adjoining them, like the data processing area in hera, but you really don't need to have layer over layer maps. You have to deliberately try to add them, and find a way to work around all the problems they cause.
I don't see the reason for a system to handle an already problematic map configuration.
The problem with multiple level maps is that to traverse the vertical space, you need to use one of three things; stairs, ladders, or elevators.
Ladders are terrible, they are impossible to fight on, have all the same problems as a tiny corridor, and are impossible for some aliens to use.
Stairwells are more or less the same, except stairs are some of the most dense geometry possible so they eat FPS at the same time, and you need to make several flights to get anywhere.
Elevators are the least intrusive but their special nature means they rapidly become chokepoints, and they are so easy to camp that it ruins any sort of progression in the way the sides fight.
The only way to avert this is to use large, gentle ramps. And for that you have no reason to do layer over layer maps, just make the ramp go to a new area to the side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are forgetting the availability of jet-packs and phase gates. A map may have "built-in" teleporters to reach floors... we could even have an elevator, or some air/gravity-tube that propels you to the next floor like that one CO map i can't remember the name of lol.
Just make 3 values for Commander Camera Height based upon map.
<img src="http://www.chiefarchitect.com/support/images/XYZ553.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
x,y,z Units
0,0,0 Units (Ground)
0,-1000,0 Units (Basement)
0,+1000,0 Units (Roof)
Is this really too hard to code?
Anything that does not have exceptions for view blocking(infestation sprites and stuff... use common sense here), would just not be in the Commander's viewpoint.
Obviously some stairs ladders would have to "go through" the Commander's Camera, and when flipped to the plain above, would be visibily the smallest. This is for fluidity.
Jetpacks maybe, but only one sort of marine gets those and they would work better in simply a big room with catwalks and ledges, which would break the alien gameplay, so jetpacks have their own problems when it comes to putting too much emphasis on them. Anything else has the exact same problems as stairs, ladders, and elevators, things that make you fly are just like stairs, annoying to fight on and easy to camp, and teleporters cause disiorientation when you use them, and are also easy to camp because you can't clear out the other side before you step through.