Discussion: How do you build maps?
GingerGiant
Join Date: 2010-04-03 Member: 71157Members
Join Date: 2010-04-03 Member: 71157Members
in Mapping
<div class="IPBDescription">The things you do, and the things you avoid.</div><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->This is a discussion of how mappers build maps at the technical level. In particular, I'd like to emphasize the things mappers have learned to do (and not to do) as they familiarize themselves with the way the Spark Editor works. This discussion's goal is to reveal flaws within the Spark Editor tool set.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<b>Foreword</b>: When I say "problem", I mean, "something that doesn't work in a logical manner, or the way I want it to."
For me, the way the editor handles points and planes is a little wonky. Every point that isn't used in the geometry of a given room causes problems when you try to move a wall, or create a face. The only way to get rid of a point that has become attached to something, without consequently removing any lines attached to it (and the faces made of those lines), is to Undo to the time before the point was created. Or at least that's how it works most of the time.
I also run into trouble when using the plane tool to create a wall or ceiling when the edges of said wall or ceiling have extra points attached to them. I'll try to create a plane with a plane tool, only for it to draw the lines and leave the face empty. This is usually when I try to create a plane over a large area. As a whole, any points attached to lines (other than the endpoints that create the line) end up causing me problems.
To counteract this, what I've started creating faces, copying them, undoing them, and pasting the copy. This way the planes are not connected (and less likely to do weird things with the move tool), and still appear as though the plane is connected, like a ceiling.
Copy/Paste helps with a lot of problems, but I can still run into trouble with the move tool.
When placing a plan in empty space, often times the origin point ends up being the only point actually mapped to the placement grid. If you've every tried to draw lines across planes, sometimes it will place the origin at a point not on the placement grid. In other cases, the origin gets placed on the grid, but the second point won't connect straight across to connect to the other side of the plane. The second point "snaps" to a point that is on the other line of the plane, but not on the grid.
Similar to the plane tool drawing empty planes, sometimes the line tool won't divide planes.
One of the other problems I encounter is with points that have unknowingly been created off the placement grid, especially when they are corners for planes and rooms. In cases where I have to resort to using my Copy/Paste Planing technique, I run into problems when I try to align the face I create to an existing face, only to discover that while the CP'd plane is aligned with the placement grid, the existing plane is not. The only way to align the two is to snap one to the other. Snapping the existing plane to the CP'd plane can cause undesirable results, like creating a slanted floor or screwing with the other planes and textures. Snapping the CP'd plane to the existing plane results in the new face being slanted, not to mention taking the plane off the alignment grid; the worst part is trying to get the other points on the CP'd plane to be level with the snapped edge. It's roughly impossible.
The Move Tool is the source of most of these problems. I avoid it at all costs whenever dealing with planes, lines, and points. Instead, I've started to use what I call the "box tool". I can't remember it's proper name, but it lets you push face and lines around to create boxes. While it ends up creating lots of extra points, it never skews a plane improperly, and the planes it creates can be divided up easily with the line tool. The only downside is that it ends up creating a lot of extra points in the middle of lines. Once I use this tool on a room, the Move Tool becomes dangerous. The best part, though, is that everything created by this tool will likely be aligned to the placement grid. Plane textures also behave better when you use the Box Tool.
I've discovered props are another good alternative to most things you can create with the move tool. I sat down one day and placed every single Refinery prop in an empty map once, so I knew what was out there. The props usually look better. You can save a lot of time if you don't have to build a surface yourself. There are lots of great walls and stuff, too. I try to use as few walls as possible in my rooms. It's good practice to create as much of a given room as possible using props. Plus, props will never freak out when you use the move tool (unlike planes).
<b>Summary</b>: Props are my friend, and they make rooms look nice. The Move Tool is the nemesis of every plane I've ever created. I've found the Box Tool is much more reliable.
<b>Foreword</b>: When I say "problem", I mean, "something that doesn't work in a logical manner, or the way I want it to."
For me, the way the editor handles points and planes is a little wonky. Every point that isn't used in the geometry of a given room causes problems when you try to move a wall, or create a face. The only way to get rid of a point that has become attached to something, without consequently removing any lines attached to it (and the faces made of those lines), is to Undo to the time before the point was created. Or at least that's how it works most of the time.
I also run into trouble when using the plane tool to create a wall or ceiling when the edges of said wall or ceiling have extra points attached to them. I'll try to create a plane with a plane tool, only for it to draw the lines and leave the face empty. This is usually when I try to create a plane over a large area. As a whole, any points attached to lines (other than the endpoints that create the line) end up causing me problems.
To counteract this, what I've started creating faces, copying them, undoing them, and pasting the copy. This way the planes are not connected (and less likely to do weird things with the move tool), and still appear as though the plane is connected, like a ceiling.
Copy/Paste helps with a lot of problems, but I can still run into trouble with the move tool.
When placing a plan in empty space, often times the origin point ends up being the only point actually mapped to the placement grid. If you've every tried to draw lines across planes, sometimes it will place the origin at a point not on the placement grid. In other cases, the origin gets placed on the grid, but the second point won't connect straight across to connect to the other side of the plane. The second point "snaps" to a point that is on the other line of the plane, but not on the grid.
Similar to the plane tool drawing empty planes, sometimes the line tool won't divide planes.
One of the other problems I encounter is with points that have unknowingly been created off the placement grid, especially when they are corners for planes and rooms. In cases where I have to resort to using my Copy/Paste Planing technique, I run into problems when I try to align the face I create to an existing face, only to discover that while the CP'd plane is aligned with the placement grid, the existing plane is not. The only way to align the two is to snap one to the other. Snapping the existing plane to the CP'd plane can cause undesirable results, like creating a slanted floor or screwing with the other planes and textures. Snapping the CP'd plane to the existing plane results in the new face being slanted, not to mention taking the plane off the alignment grid; the worst part is trying to get the other points on the CP'd plane to be level with the snapped edge. It's roughly impossible.
The Move Tool is the source of most of these problems. I avoid it at all costs whenever dealing with planes, lines, and points. Instead, I've started to use what I call the "box tool". I can't remember it's proper name, but it lets you push face and lines around to create boxes. While it ends up creating lots of extra points, it never skews a plane improperly, and the planes it creates can be divided up easily with the line tool. The only downside is that it ends up creating a lot of extra points in the middle of lines. Once I use this tool on a room, the Move Tool becomes dangerous. The best part, though, is that everything created by this tool will likely be aligned to the placement grid. Plane textures also behave better when you use the Box Tool.
I've discovered props are another good alternative to most things you can create with the move tool. I sat down one day and placed every single Refinery prop in an empty map once, so I knew what was out there. The props usually look better. You can save a lot of time if you don't have to build a surface yourself. There are lots of great walls and stuff, too. I try to use as few walls as possible in my rooms. It's good practice to create as much of a given room as possible using props. Plus, props will never freak out when you use the move tool (unlike planes).
<b>Summary</b>: Props are my friend, and they make rooms look nice. The Move Tool is the nemesis of every plane I've ever created. I've found the Box Tool is much more reliable.
Comments
Well you've lost sight of the thread already. You just listed a load of ways in which the editor is buggy for you. Nothing about how you actually create a level, how you visualise, plan, create or manipulate and use the tools to work for you, that's how you build.
This is intended to be a discussion to discover things people may overlook, or not consider bugs. For all I know, the things I mentioned aren't actually bugs. Maybe I was just using the tools wrong. But, I want the discussion to highlight the ways players have worked around the things they don't like, so that people who are new to mapping can learn something. This is meant to be a combination dialogue/learning experience.
<!--coloro:grey--><span style="color:grey"><!--/coloro-->Let's assume that the point of this thread is something that has no part. Now let's assume there's some line, some breadthless length, passes through that point. Let's say that represents the thread. Now imagine another line, that's your posting. Now also let there be a line that passes through the thread line and your posting line. In this case, there is no side of that third line on which the interior angles are less than two right angles.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
~~Sickle~~
If you find the texture on your face stretches as you move the edges of it with the Move Tool, you have texture lock turned on. You can turn it off but clicking the pad lock on the bottom of the editor.
If you are having problems with face A moving when you move face B, it is because the 2 faces are welded together. I don't believe at the moment there is a way to remove welds without removing the vertices that connects the 2 faces, and then replace them again with the line tool, then creating new faces.
To get around this weld problem i don't create new faces on a face with the line tool, as they will always be welded together when they are created. I build the faces from 1 single small square which i resize to what and where i want it. I then copy and paste that in 1 of 2 ways and use the move tool to drag it off and next to the original face. The new face will already be placed on what ever axis the original faces is on so half the work is already done. Then i use the Move Tool to change what i want. Because i did it this way, the edges connecting the 2 faces are not welded and can move independently.
When you use the move tool, it is possible to lock the axis you are dragging the face along by pressing a key which has slipped my mind at the moment.
The extrude tool has is uses but you shouldn't rely on it as the base tool you use to work with because all the faces you create with it will be welded, which i think is what is screwing you about.
Last of all if you cant get the edges of faces to meet up, you can change the grid size down to 1 which makes it a little easier, or you can hold ALT while you drag which move the faces/edge in very small sections at a time. Also, don't forget that the Spark Editor isn't going to screw you over if the map has leaks, so not every single face will need to be connected to another. If you cant tell theres a gap there when you are in the map running about, just ignore it if it has no effect on the map (light bleeding).
I think it would help the Developers more if we cited examples of pieces of geometry that Spark struggles with rather than problems with specific tool manipulations.
Im experienced enough with the editor to know the best way to do X or Y but i cannot give a catch-all answer. There are certainly things you just have to accept is down to the editor and/or engine missing certain features (e.g you cannot have mirrored textures).