Skulk wallcling and marine weapons.
Hashashin
Join Date: 2010-04-15 Member: 71416Members
Join Date: 2010-04-15 Member: 71416Members
I played NS one for years, and given its level of quality I don't think the NS team would do this, but I have to post a plea anyway.
I'm sure you guys have played aliens vs. predator 2010, and you might be thinking some of the ideas are cool, but there are two in particular that cause lots of annoyance and I'd hate to see in NS2.
The first is the skulk wallwalk. NS1's wallwalk was the most perfectly done of any game ive played, you stuck to the wall, and the camera did not spaz out. In avp, playing an alien can be very annoying because of this, the slightlest bump or change in surface and make your camera completely change direction, and it is not in any way fun. It also severely limits motion, if you are too high and you want to ambush a marine, you cannot detach from a surface readily.
My second worry is about marine weapon flash. Again, I trust you won't copy a bad avp idea, but I have to post just in case because I think something like this would ruin gameplay.
The ns1 weaponry had a very mild flash that did not cover your screen and blind you, avp does. Limiting visibility through stealth upgrades or darkness can be fun, your own weapon blinding you is not.
My two hopes for ns2, can't wait to play this game!
PS. I tell all the disillusioned AvP players to buy NS2 :P
I'm sure you guys have played aliens vs. predator 2010, and you might be thinking some of the ideas are cool, but there are two in particular that cause lots of annoyance and I'd hate to see in NS2.
The first is the skulk wallwalk. NS1's wallwalk was the most perfectly done of any game ive played, you stuck to the wall, and the camera did not spaz out. In avp, playing an alien can be very annoying because of this, the slightlest bump or change in surface and make your camera completely change direction, and it is not in any way fun. It also severely limits motion, if you are too high and you want to ambush a marine, you cannot detach from a surface readily.
My second worry is about marine weapon flash. Again, I trust you won't copy a bad avp idea, but I have to post just in case because I think something like this would ruin gameplay.
The ns1 weaponry had a very mild flash that did not cover your screen and blind you, avp does. Limiting visibility through stealth upgrades or darkness can be fun, your own weapon blinding you is not.
My two hopes for ns2, can't wait to play this game!
PS. I tell all the disillusioned AvP players to buy NS2 :P
Comments
For #2 I'd like to note that the original LMG muzzleflash was huge and very obstructing, but thankfully it has shrunk a lot since those early versions of NS1, so the devs probably learned their lesson there already.
For #2 I'd like to note that the original LMG muzzleflash was huge and very obstructing, but thankfully it has shrunk a lot since those early versions of NS1, so the devs probably learned their lesson there already.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good to know.
It is much easier to control the Aliens in the AvP Franchise Games, because of view rotation. (Lets ignore the latest AvP, that game fails.)
Auto-Transition is a must, none of this press a key to change surfaces BS. Also a Toggle-Wallwalk and Hold-to-Wallwalk Key Binding options are a must.
Besides, with proper View Rotation it is much easier to Run + Attack, and not be de-latching every other second because +forward when facing away from the wall jousts you away(this is what NS1 does).
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Like I said before. The only people who truly have a problem with this, are the ones who can't wrap their mind around Real X/Y Axis Plane & Helicopter controls(Inverted Mouse Users; CS example), and/or also just do not have the skill required to translate the added extra inputs going to the brain(being able to control + predict the recoil and bullet pattern; another CS example).
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This has to be in the game, but do make a Menu Option to change from Beginner(NS1) and Advanced/Expert(AvP Style) View Rotation.
It is much easier to control the Aliens in the AvP Franchise Games, because of view rotation. (Lets ignore the latest AvP, that game fails.)
Auto-Transition is a must, none of this press a key to change surfaces BS. Also a Toggle-Wallwalk and Hold-to-Wallwalk Key Binding options are a must.
Besides, with proper View Rotation it is much easier to Run + Attack, and not be de-latching every other second because +forward when facing away from the wall jousts you away(this is what NS1 does).
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Like I said before. The only people who truly have a problem with this, are the ones who can't wrap their mind around Real X/Y Axis Plane & Helicopter controls(Inverted Mouse Users; CS example), and/or also just do not have the skill required to translate the added extra inputs going to the brain(being able to control + predict the recoil and bullet pattern; another CS example).
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This has to be in the game, but do make a Menu Option to change from Beginner(NS1) and Advanced/Expert(AvP Style) View Rotation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How funny, you think anything in any of the AvP games takes skill.
Not going to argue with a fanboy, just glad the NS team knows better.
have you been a ns1 pro ? ...
So yeah, from a pure gameplay point of view I'd prefer to have a rotationless camera and just work on the climb mechanics so that you move on the walls in a more inuitive and precise way. For example taking corners while climbing is pretty difficult right now.
Yeah, I was refrencing the better games of the AvP franchise (AvP 2010 is just lol).
I think with this new engine the NS2 DEVs created, I think they could simulate gravity and weight pretty well if they wanted to(for use when Skulks delatch/jump from a wall).
You have to look at both sides of the argument/players here, look at all the people who are good with wall rotation and it does not bother them. Then there are people who are the complete opposite. So thats why it is best to just include both options, through a menu setting.
A really good example woul be from a Space Flight Sim/Economic game(for example, X3:Terran Conflict) you can either use the Mouse+Keyboard(which is arguably the easier option), or a Joystick. Joysticks tend to be more useful if you use a real low sensitivity or like flying Capital Ships(very slow turnrate). With a Mouse, using Mouse4+5 to rotate the Ship, is doable but feels blocky. You feel like you are in one of those arcade rail shooters, however this is actually easier to play.
So yeah, it cant hurt to include it... even if it is an official supported mod down the road that was created by the playerbase.
The avp2 camera style was okay, its something you can learn to adjust to, but as a human being who does not live its life climbing on walls and ceilings, it is ultimately unnatural and cumbersome to have a constantly rotating view. Why have to adjust to something that isn't appealing when ns1 had a working alternative?
I think with this new engine the NS2 DEVs created, I think they could simulate gravity and weight pretty well if they wanted to(for use when Skulks delatch/jump from a wall).
You have to look at both sides of the argument/players here, look at all the people who are good with wall rotation and it does not bother them. Then there are people who are the complete opposite. So thats why it is best to just include both options, through a menu setting.
A really good example woul be from a Space Flight Sim/Economic game(for example, X3:Terran Conflict) you can either use the Mouse+Keyboard(which is arguably the easier option), or a Joystick. Joysticks tend to be more useful if you use a real low sensitivity or like flying Capital Ships(very slow turnrate). With a Mouse, using Mouse4+5 to rotate the Ship, is doable but feels blocky. You feel like you are in one of those arcade rail shooters, however this is actually easier to play.
So yeah, it cant hurt to include it... even if it is an official supported mod down the road that was created by the playerbase.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would be fine as a mod, but if the devs spent time creating it, it could detract from other, more important aspects.
It wouldn't be natural for a creature that does live climbing on walls either. They have necks for a reason.
We do need to keep in mind how much coding this would need.
I do agree that using some kind of command to detach from the wall instead of viewing angle is good. Very useful for drop-ambushing and parasite sniping on the ceiling!
Like go play BF2 or the game I mentioned, X3:Terran Conflict.
People who get motion sickness, get it regardless in regards to view rotation. (English fail at midnight. =|)
It is like rapid flashing rainbow colors for some people, they just wont be able to play a videogame realistically.
In an aircraft, yaw is controlled in relation to the aircraft's current facing vector. The yaw control is consistent: a specific input will always rotate the aircraft by the same amount.
In traditional FPS, the control scheme is different in a subtle but important way. The difference is that yaw is always controlled in relation to your <i>horizontal</i> heading, rather than your facing vector. If you're facing horizontally there is no difference, but if you're not looking at the horizon and you perform a yaw, the yaw control will be suppressed and will also perform roll adjustments to keep your view level. The greater your angular distance from the horizon, the slower the yaw performs and the greater the roll adjustments.
I have never played an AvP game but I am assuming that when the view rotates it preserves your <i>absolute</i> facing in the game world, rather than your facing relative to your feet. That would be the very basic functionality required to not induce horrific disorientation - if it is not present, then it is impossible to aim while traversing any non-flat surface. Therefore I will assume it is present.
The problem now is that when your view rotates, your pitch relative to your horizon (feet) changes. This means that your yaw speed changes, as does the amount of roll adjustments it performs. Unlike the aircraft case, the yaw control is inconsistent.
I didn't find the NS alternative very appealing.
I embraced the old AvP viewturn and was seriously disapointed when I tried to wallclimb in NS. Especially when I found out that the controlls wheren't intuitive - if my camera is 90° from the wall, I expect that my character reacts that way, yet it did not.
Skulks don't have necks!
We do need to keep in mind how much coding this would need.
I do agree that using some kind of command to detach from the wall instead of viewing angle is good. Very useful for drop-ambushing and parasite sniping on the ceiling!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't want to know how avp2010 handles switches surfaces or going over bumps, it's a disaster. Half the time a minor change in elevation will send your camera upward (relative to your position) sharply. Jumping from a wall to another surface sometimes turns it in the exact opposite direction you are looking/moving towards. It's not even the camera so much, wall transition in avp negatively affects movement and entering narrow areas, probably the reason they didn't put any vents in. You can't sprint or even move at a normal speed through doorways or holes in the ground, it just sends you past or spinning in circles, forcing you to slow or stop yourself to get through, not very fluid or fun.
I don't remember how the avp2 wallwalk was, I just remember it didn't hold a candle to ns1 skulks.
As for the muzzle flashes blocking the view you're absolutely right. This is a future day and age we're playing here where nano-technology is used in just about everything. Which would make bullets fit like a glove in the barrels since everything would be constructed accurately down to the last atom, no room for escaping gases makes for neater more compact muzzle flashes, perhaps one of those star shaped muzzle flashes where the gases are deliberately released in 4-5 directions thanks to the notches of the spiral grading in the barrel etc.
Besides, maybe Im missing somethign here, but isnt your view located inside the life-forms mouth? How the **** would you NOT have the camera orientation change when on a wall?
Besides, maybe Im missing somethign here, but isnt your view located inside the life-forms mouth? How the **** would you NOT have the camera orientation change when on a wall?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How the **** does a tongue act as an eyeball??? It's fiction, just go with it :P
Must be the same gene that causes skulks not to have any sense of gravity or awarness of it's surroundings apart from vision and hearing. It's a game, it can't imitate everything we feel and sense. If the view rotation works, it's fine. If it doesn't, there's no point in sticking to it just because that would happen in real life for a human being.
Its thee same for those aliens. They feel the direction of gravity (or if we make non-grav maps, they remember the direction), then the toungue that as those aliens infact is millions of microscopic organismes, pick up enough data from the light to paint an image trough the mouth, and then they rotate what it "see" outside its mouth so it is bottom down.
When a player then shares the same experience, we see an image on the screen of the world turned right, and the mouth same.
You know, if the world was turned right for the alien but its bottom teeths were upwards, then I imagine it would be quite confused and dizzy. Cause aliens feel the same way as us, dont you agree on that? They cant be something that has "superior" feelings but no hatred or sorrow, right? No they cant, humans are better, thats why we fight them huh?
Similarly, in real life you can determine your orientation by means of your vestibular system. The game can't stimulate your vestibular system, so it uses another means to keep the player oriented.
Its thee same for those aliens. They feel the direction of gravity (or if we make non-grav maps, they remember the direction), then the toungue that as those aliens infact is millions of microscopic organismes, pick up enough data from the light to paint an image trough the mouth, and then they rotate what it "see" outside its mouth so it is bottom down.
When a player then shares the same experience, we see an image on the screen of the world turned right, and the mouth same.
You know, if the world was turned right for the alien but its bottom teeths were upwards, then I imagine it would be quite confused and dizzy. Cause aliens feel the same way as us, dont you agree on that? They cant be something that has "superior" feelings but no hatred or sorrow, right? No they cant, humans are better, thats why we fight them huh?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As a fan of playing kharaa, I can safely say the only feelings we have for marines is hunger.
So, I'm kinda partial to not rotating view. But I trust that people who claim it's learnable are telling the truth. Also, mapping I'm sure will have a serious impact. Tremulous all the walls vs floors look the same, so the jarring spinning made it difficult to remember where down is.
The one thing I'm most concerned about is the initial learning curve. New players no used to a rotating view will be easily disoriented and may give up on learning it. Yeah yeah blame the new fangled "dumb down" games or lazy kids, but let's face it, you don't have time to get past the initial learning of every game out there. There's just not enough time. So, is there a way to make it easy enough to learn without getting confused for your first 5 games?
That's my metric. If I'm not having fun after 5 games, I leave.
So, I'm kinda partial to not rotating view. But I trust that people who claim it's learnable are telling the truth. Also, mapping I'm sure will have a serious impact. Tremulous all the walls vs floors look the same, so the jarring spinning made it difficult to remember where down is.
The one thing I'm most concerned about is the initial learning curve. New players no used to a rotating view will be easily disoriented and may give up on learning it. Yeah yeah blame the new fangled "dumb down" games or lazy kids, but let's face it, you don't have time to get past the initial learning of every game out there. There's just not enough time. So, is there a way to make it easy enough to learn without getting confused for your first 5 games?
That's my metric. If I'm not having fun after 5 games, I leave.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See, that is the problem with Tremulous, all the walls/floors/celings are gray and/or look about the same.
In AvP2, you had Catwalks outside around buildings, refinery walls with pits, etc., it was very easy to tell where you were in the map without view rotation because of unique "room locations(due to weapon/item pickups and map geometry)"(oh hey look NS2 map guide designs), so it was no problem to get use to.
Once you learn it, you will never want to play a game as a monster/alien/creature again without it. It is like a Joystick for a Flight game, once you get used to it, you really understand the limitations of just using a Mouse.
*NOTE*
Do not bring the gimmicky NovintFailcon into this discussion.
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It really boils down to a mapping issue, so playing on CP_X_ORANGE_99(god awfull maps) where the whole map is the size of FY_Iceworld, people new/old to view rotation will just not get it probably.
This shouldn't be a problem for the Official NS2 Maps, since that is what new players should be joining first. If a new player goes immediatly straight to a de_dust2 remake, then ###### em... who cares.
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Not to change this thread completely, just making a point; it is like the bunnyhop learning argument. Everyone can learn how to bunnyhop(all it is is hand-hand-eye coordination and repeating input timing), just most will not be amazing at it first. It takes time to get good at, like just playing a videogame. Anyone who has played FPSs long enough can really jump into any FPS game and get a decent score(at least midway up the Scoreboard) against other similarly skilled players.
The people who really only play 15 minutes/30 minutes/45 minutes/1 hour(max here) <b>once a WEEK</b>, are always going to be very low on the scoreboards and probably have a negative K/D ratio; in regards to FPS games. These same <u>Extremely Casual Players</u> will never grasp any advanced game concepts(or just be completely horrid at them), like view rotation, but the question is... should you cater all the way down to their level?
If you do, you really have to dumb the game way down and rip out all the fun features in it... look at most FPSs out there. I think most "Extremely Casual Players" look at Marines(Humans) VS. Aliens(Monsters/Creatures games as niche games(like the Space Flight Combat games I.E. X3:TC), and probably stay away. If not it is basically their second buy game when they walk into a store(impulse buy when they have extra cash on something random), so I would not be too worried about being flooded with headless chickens.
The other argument is that just some people are really bad at FPS games, or just videogames in general, and in that case it doesn't matter. (If you are one of these people, then you shouldn't really complain or argue about the inclusion of view rotation for NS2, since it doesn't make a difference for you anyways.)
And no I'm not trying to put anyone down or saying -L2P- rudely, but it is just the truth in some(a lot maybe?) cases, especially for this style of a FPS game(Human vs. Alien).
Similarly, in real life you can determine your orientation by means of your vestibular system. The game can't stimulate your vestibular system, so it uses another means to keep the player oriented.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hm, you got a point. Maybe the kharaa are all snakes. But as our screens can give us the sense of taste they have, we get a visual feedback? Their eyes are maybe just a very secondary sense for them?
<!--quoteo(post=1768761:date=Apr 26 2010, 03:45 PM:name=Hashashin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hashashin @ Apr 26 2010, 03:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1768761"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As a fan of playing kharaa, I can safely say the only feelings we have for marines is hunger.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I would not say hunger is the primary feeling, I think its curiosity. How does that marine taste? And that?
The only reason the game isnt about licking on the map tasting it, is because other kharaa already done so and trough genetic memory let us know.
Right?
Hm, wonder if that could be a fun mod if polished a bit and made fun? "Taste-Mod".