<!--quoteo(post=1771990:date=May 23 2010, 03:02 AM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ May 23 2010, 03:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1771990"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You might benefit from learning a bit about the software development cycle and project management; for example, look up a "Gantt" chart to see why working "smarter" makes a difference. Again, you've misjudged the impact of community feedback; a prime example is Valve's response to the L4D2 boycotters, which resulted in a meeting at HQ and release of more L4D DLC (albeit what little it was). Complaining (in moderation) is a form of feedback, and feedback works.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know what they are and they're also silly, they are an overcomplicated to-do list. If you fall behind where you are supposed to be, so what? Assuming you were working as quickly as you can nothing is going to speed that up. As I said when it comes to work, you do everything that needs doing until it's all done. If you stop doing something half way through because a silly chart says you should be doing something else at the moment then you won't get a functioning game out at the end, you'll get a bunch of half finished bits of code and models. Knowing exactly how far behind you are is irrelevant because it does not increase your ability to complete things quickly.
Things take as long as they do, a schedule is only useful as a predictive tool, not as a tool for making things get done quickly.
Appeasing whiney people is hardly neccesary, releasing good games does more for you than pandering to malcontents. Some people are simply never happy, time is more efficiently spent making a new, better game than desperately trying to win the affection of a tiny number of people.
To be fairly honest, I'm impressed with the development and I appreciate all developments posted weekly.
You know the project is being worked on well and the amount of dedication they put into the videos are in great amounts. I wouldn't want to rush them for the world, as they already seem to be pushing themselves heavily, for such a small team and such a feat - not to mention the expectations.
<!--quoteo(post=1771997:date=May 22 2010, 11:48 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ May 22 2010, 11:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1771997"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know what they are and they're also silly, they are an overcomplicated to-do list. If you fall behind where you are supposed to be, so what?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well it shows your poor understanding of project management. Although I can agree that UWE is probably working speedily towards NS2's release, my point here is that threads like these are the community dynamic. They not only express valid concerns, but also help shape the meaning of urgency and "as fast as possible". Threads like these once in a while thus serve a purpose, so tl;dr - lay off the OP.
<!--quoteo(post=1771859:date=May 22 2010, 02:35 AM:name=oscpro)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (oscpro @ May 22 2010, 02:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1771859"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alot of us paid over a year ago for pre order and we have only seen something that can't even run for 2 seconds.
I am not trying to be harsh here, but I run a online business myself and if my customers had to wait this long especially after telling them it will be available in fall 2009, they would ask for a refund.
I have a recommendation to the devs, you might want to step this up abit or this community and your reputation will be very bad to say the least.
I have been playing games since the original quake engine and unreal engine, this is by far the longest I have seen any team take to make a game.
Soon, it will get to the point that new games with better graphics will be out anyways and this game will already be old when it launches if it really does launch. I am beginning to wonder if this will ever be done.
I played ns1 and loved it so much, that is why I preordered this game. I also understand you devs have let the community be a part of it, but your walking a thin rope that will soon break.
I know a mod that was done on one of the ea games engines and they did the same thing, they waited too long and the community got tired of waiting and the reputation went down the drain. Dead before it was even realized.
I know you guys know this stuff, but I am quite frustrated myself on how long it is taking the devs to complete this game.
I have a very bad feeling about this.
Suggestion, if you are unable to get this game done in a timely manner, then I suggest you get some help in the dev area to speed things up.
I still have time to file a chargeback on my credit card and I am hoping some good news comes soon so I don't have to.
Forgive me, I am frustrated about paying for something that has yet to work. No alpha, no beta, just engine test on steam to pacify the time. Looks bad.
The word is already getting out that this game might flake out and if you do not get it out before SC2, then this game might end up like AVP.
<a href="http://forums.voogru.com/general-gaming/12620-natural-selection-2-a-18.html" target="_blank">http://forums.voogru.com/general-gaming/12...ion-2-a-18.html</a> (not the only site mentioning this)
I hope you guys show us all differently and very soon!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"I have a recommendation to the devs, you might want to step this up abit or this community and your reputation will be very bad to say the least." You my friend, and I speak on behalf of 99.99999% of the community are a c*ck.
Unfortunately, it is people such as yourself who invest money, and want things rushed forward. If you got your way, we would end up with an incomplete, buggy, crap game.
Now, again, I speak on behalf of the community when I say if your not happy - Get a refund, we dont need people to whine, it just winds people up. You invested good money to help the development of a game - not to rush it forward.
If you want something built / completed properly throwing more people at the problem does not solve it - Surely you should understand this having a business of your own? More developers would just mean more pieces to a puzzle, people getting in the way of each other.
Shame this forum is filled up with 'know it all, I can do much better' whiners.
<!--quoteo(post=1771960:date=May 22 2010, 10:44 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ May 22 2010, 10:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1771960"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, we've missed some deadlines, both external and internal. Yes we feel bad that people have paid money for the game, and are still anxiously waiting to play it. But please have some faith and patience, and bear with us a little longer. We are not vaporware, we are not goofing off with your money, and we have more invested in the success of this game and company then anyone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh. So far as I'm concerned, my purchase of NS2 simply paid for the enjoyment I got out of NS1. And if at some point in the future I get a new game out of it as well.. well hey, that's just a bonus.
So feel free to goof off with my money.. it ain't much, but it oughta get you a pizza or something. :)
<!--quoteo(post=1772005:date=May 23 2010, 09:21 AM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ May 23 2010, 09:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1772005"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well it shows your poor understanding of project management. Although I can agree that UWE is probably working speedily towards NS2's release, my point here is that threads like these are the community dynamic. They not only express valid concerns, but also help shape the meaning of urgency and "as fast as possible". Threads like these once in a while thus serve a purpose, so tl;dr - lay off the OP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well yes actually I missed something, they are quite good for organising a big team, because individual people have limited skill ranges, and some things need to be done in specific orders, so you should organise people so that you have a good weighting of specilaisations, if you don't have to do much code but do need lots of art then hire more artists and set them to work on the things that need doing for the coders to test their first bits of work and whatnot.
But that doesn't apply very much when you have about half a dozen people, if you have three artists and need lots of art doing, it's going to take a lot of time, no amount of project management will help you, and if it takes longer than the schedule the only real solution is 'hire more people' which small companies do not have the luxury of doing willy nilly. We already know they're focussing on the refinery art set, and getting the engine working on as many platforms as possible before building more things on top of it, those seem like pretty good priorities to me, there isn't much else needed other than <b>more time</b> to actually implement them.
Unless you expect the devs to start sleeping in the broom closet at the office, you can't make them go faster than they already are.
As has been pointed out there are far greater urgencies than pleasing a bunch of plebs on a forum somewhere, the entire company and future financial wellbeing of the developers rests on the game, that has far more weight than a bunch of unpleasable oiks on a forum. Saying threads like this help provide a sense of urgency is like saying that 'oh well your entire future is at stake here and success or failure impacts a lot of people you know and like personally, but also this guy somewhere you've never met is indignant about your lack of progress SO YOU SHOULD SPEED UP TO MAKE HIM HAPPY!'
$10 in constelation program, $40 on special edition. Playing Since late 2003 few months after Halloween. I know the game is coming, never worried it would not come out, Deserve the money regaurdless, I read what we got with the order after I bought it, ordered without hesitation. If I win a load of money I would certainly give them a chunck if they wanted it with no strings attached.
<!--quoteo(post=1772023:date=May 23 2010, 12:53 PM:name=SgtBarlow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SgtBarlow @ May 23 2010, 12:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1772023"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->$10 in constelation program, $40 on special edition. Playing Since late 2003 few months after Halloween. I know the game is coming, never worried it would not come out, Deserve the money regaurdless, I read what we got with the order after I bought it, ordered without hesitation. If I win a load of money I would certainly give them a chunck if they wanted it with no strings attached.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, they definitely deserve the money. Still, for example right now I'd probably be more willing to spend my money on constellation rather than the preorder, because I feel that way I'm kinda voting with my money on what they did with NS1. NS2 is definitely interesting and amazing for an indie project, but I wouldn't be all this attached to it without NS1 having such a huge effect on me.
<!--quoteo(post=1771960:date=May 22 2010, 12:44 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ May 22 2010, 12:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1771960"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>You can't judge the progress of the game off of the engine test. For example, we have all of the alien lifeforms modeled and animated, and in game, (yes, including the Fade) but still need to refine and work out the gameplay.</b> Just because we haven't done a reveal or blog post about something doesn't mean it isn't done. In the case of the Fade we want to do a proper reveal movie, which takes time, and right now we really have our heads down concentrating on the game itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1772008:date=May 23 2010, 09:54 AM:name=-Nemesis-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (-Nemesis- @ May 23 2010, 09:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1772008"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"I have a recommendation to the devs, you might want to step this up abit or this community and your reputation will be very bad to say the least." You my friend, and I speak on behalf of 99.99999% of the community are a c*ck.
Unfortunately, it is people such as yourself who invest money, and want things rushed forward. If you got your way, we would end up with an incomplete, buggy, crap game.
Now, again, I speak on behalf of the community when I say if your not happy - Get a refund, we dont need people to whine, it just winds people up. You invested good money to help the development of a game - not to rush it forward.
If you want something built / completed properly throwing more people at the problem does not solve it - Surely you should understand this having a business of your own? More developers would just mean more pieces to a puzzle, people getting in the way of each other.
Shame this forum is filled up with 'know it all, I can do much better' whiners.
Just wait...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You most certainly do not speak for 99.99999999% of the community. Even less with an attitude like that - The OP has a valid concern and has to right to speak their mind. Now you may not share their concern, nor look upon the situation as an issue, which is just as valid. However calling names and talking down to someone because they are unsure and have a bad gut feeling, is no way to be a community, nor a representation of anyone in it.
Also, more developers does not mean more people getting in the way of each other..if you experience this, you aren't properly managing your company. Having a lack of funding for more developers and properly defined roles for them is a whole other matter.
As always..I do most of my time here lurking, reading and re-reading..but I felt someone needed to say this, and it might as well be me. <3 all
<!--quoteo(post=1772009:date=May 23 2010, 10:17 AM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ May 23 2010, 10:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1772009"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Heh. So far as I'm concerned, my purchase of NS2 simply paid for the enjoyment I got out of NS1. And if at some point in the future I get a new game out of it as well.. well hey, that's just a bonus.
So feel free to goof off with my money.. it ain't much, but it oughta get you a pizza or something. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this.
Personally I don't care how long it takes, there are other games to keep me busy while I wait. I want them to make the best NS2 they can, if that takes until 2012 that's fine with me, maybe I'll even preorder more copies until then. ;)
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
<!--quoteo(post=1772023:date=May 23 2010, 10:53 PM:name=SgtBarlow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SgtBarlow @ May 23 2010, 10:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1772023"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->$10 in constelation program, $40 on special edition. Playing Since late 2003 few months after Halloween. I know the game is coming, never worried it would not come out, Deserve the money regaurdless, I read what we got with the order after I bought it, ordered without hesitation. If I win a load of money I would certainly give them a chunck if they wanted it with no strings attached.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1 !!!! :)
Honestly, UWE is doing a bang up job. My money is well invested this I know.
And cursing UWE for launching pre-orders so long in advance is uncalled for I think, many large game companies have done the same in the past. Take Blizzard and Diablo 3 for example they've also had their pre-orders for well over a year now and still no game, sure it's coming soon and has a release date but it's still the same imo. So UWE is hardly alone in struggling to reach milestones and deadlines etc. And that is Blizzard with roughly 70 people involved in Diablo 3 that's more than 10 times the team on NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1772052:date=May 24 2010, 12:01 AM:name=Supernorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Supernorn @ May 24 2010, 12:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1772052"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It looks like the $40 would have been better spent on some bottles and pacifiers for all the impatient babbys crying in this thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alot of us paid over a year ago for pre order and we have only seen something that can't even run for 2 seconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> can't run for 2 seconds huh. great start, the credibility of your opinion to me is slowly going down the drain...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am not trying to be harsh here, but I run a online business myself and if my customers had to wait this long especially after telling them it will be available in fall 2009, they would ask for a refund.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Theres a huge difference to running an everyday online business and a creative indie startup. They need capital right from the get go, and if it wasnt for the early preorder support i doubt they'd be advancing as fast as they are now.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have a recommendation to the devs, you might want to step this up abit or this community and your reputation will be very bad to say the least.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> you have some secretly recorded footage of the devs in vegas visiting strip clubs and casinos that we havn't seen?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have been playing games since the original quake engine and unreal engine, this is by far the longest I have seen any team take to make a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> at this point your credibility is edging into the negative. are you just trying to troll us?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Soon, it will get to the point that new games with better graphics will be out anyways and this game will already be old when it launches if it really does launch. I am beginning to wonder if this will ever be done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your seriously not impressed by the graphics the engine test showcases given the specs required to run it?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still have time to file a chargeback on my credit card and I am hoping some good news comes soon so I don't have to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good news will come in its own time. Understand this - we are CUSTOMERS, not investors/owners/shareholders. Sure we have buying power via refunds, but other than that we have no right to dictate or subtly imply ultimatums to this fine company. I have good faith the devs are doing what devs do to the best of their ability and no ammount of this trolling will change otherwise. All you did was 'waste' more of their time in making them have to PR it up with a thoughtout post.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Forgive me, I am frustrated about paying for something that has yet to work. No alpha, no beta, just engine test on steam to pacify the time. Looks bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> People were saying it looked bad before there was even an engine test. That it was vaporware even. The situation doesnt seem to have changed even after the engine test. Forgive ME, but i am frustrated with trolls who keep messing with the community and pressuring devs to hurry hurry release unpolished work. What will you say after alpha is released? "no beta, just alpha and engine test to pacify the time. Looks bad.."?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The word is already getting out that this game might flake out and if you do not get it out before SC2, then this game might end up like AVP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Timing a release is important, but im sure UWE is more interested in making a quality game that LASTS and has intrinsic value beyond a hype. That was by far the main reason (and paying for ns1) behind my preorder. Besides, if you want to talk about timing, releasing AFTER sc2 is much much more preferable to releasing BEFORE it.
GISPBattle GorgeDenmarkJoin Date: 2004-03-20Member: 27460Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester, Forum staff
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->$10 in constelation program, $40 on special edition. Playing Since late 2003 few months after Halloween. I know the game is coming, never worried it would not come out, Deserve the money regaurdless, I read what we got with the order after I bought it, ordered without hesitation. If I win a load of money I would certainly give them a chunck if they wanted it with no strings attached.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im on the same page as you, and i to have played NS for that long.
Hell i even offered 10k$ as an Angel investor to insure NS2 will be made, and are still willing to... And i dont care if its released 2010 or 2015. So dont you worry Cory, the mayority of the community has your back, and will see this tru whit you guys. And remmeber, if you lack money, you can allways extent the Constilation program to NS2 whit new icons or maybe blue flashlights or lazor thingies and what not.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
<!--quoteo(post=1771960:date=May 23 2010, 03:44 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ May 23 2010, 03:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1771960"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We've already responded on numerous occasions to posts like these, but I guess one more can't hurt.
Fall 2009 was an honest mistake. We had some good momentum built up, and really believed we could hit a late fall deadline of a first playable version of the game that we could release to the public. We weren't planning on it being a finished polished version, but we anticipated getting something into your hands by then.
However, development of the tools ended up taking much longer then anticipated, and we had to face some harsh realities of building your own game engine from scratch, with only one graphics/engine/tools programmer. We were also having difficulty finding mappers, we've lost several environment artists to other game companies, and a lot of Charlie's time was eaten up by invester meetings, and the day to day business of running a company. Anyway, to make a long story short, we missed the fall deadline, and shortly thereafter put together an extensive update to the community, in reference to the missed deadline, though I still see people posting that we never informed our community about it.
We've continued to plow ahead, making extensive progress on the game, and trying to work as efficiently and smartly as possible. We use programs such as Pivotal Tracker, to help us make better estimates about our progress. We work some long hours, and on weekends. And still, nothing runs as smoothly as you anticipate. As you can see, just the act of bringing over the engine test to Steam caused a whole host of new problems, which is yet more bugs and issues that the programmers need to spend their time addressing, and not focused on the game itself. Any PR release, blog post, or tools release takes time away from the game development, but we feel its worthwhile to keep our community engaged.
You can't judge the progress of the game off of the engine test. For example, we have all of the alien lifeforms modeled and animated, and in game, (yes, including the Fade) but still need to refine and work out the gameplay. Just because we haven't done a reveal or blog post about something doesn't mean it isn't done. In the case of the Fade we want to do a proper reveal movie, which takes time, and right now we really have our heads down concentrating on the game itself.
We understand that people feel like they've been waiting forever for this game. But keep in mind, NS2 did not go into development right after NS1. It's really only been about a year and a half of solid development time, and most games take at least 2 years with full sized teams, and often can take 3 years or more, if they've developed their own engine and tools from scratch. But since most companies aren't as open with the public with the behind the scenes development of the game, people don't even know there is a game until the publisher decides to reveal it when those games are already quite far along in the development.
Yes, we've missed some deadlines, both external and internal. Yes we feel bad that people have paid money for the game, and are still anxiously waiting to play it. But please have some faith and patience, and bear with us a little longer. We are not vaporware, we are not goofing off with your money, and we have more invested in the success of this game and company then anyone.
There will be some upcoming announcements soon that will help to give you a better sense of the state and progress of things.
Thanks for your ongoing support.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
might be worth putting something like that news page - not everyone digs through the forums (especially since most people that complain on the forum have only 1 post or so)
None of those are actually realy missing, They are pretty much done just not released, What is probably missing most of all is a large amount of art assets and Hardware Profiles and a few render functions.
<!--quoteo(post=1771859:date=May 21 2010, 09:35 PM:name=oscpro)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (oscpro @ May 21 2010, 09:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1771859"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have been playing games since the original quake engine and unreal engine, this is by far the longest I have seen any team take to make a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, you missed the entire Atari/Coleco/NES/Commodore/Amiga/Sega/SNES... era.
<!--quoteo(post=1771859:date=May 21 2010, 09:35 PM:name=oscpro)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (oscpro @ May 21 2010, 09:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1771859"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The word is already getting out that this game might flake out and if you do not get it out before SC2, then this game might end up like AVP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How exactly is NS2 related to SC2? Oh yeah, people will say: "I already bought one game where two species battle over extra terrestrial locations, let's pass this one up.... oohhh WW2 shooter, let's get this." I simply see no logic in the SC2 argument.
<!--quoteo(post=1771919:date=May 22 2010, 05:45 AM:name=GeneralBowser)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GeneralBowser @ May 22 2010, 05:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1771919"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyone remember TF2? It was announced about a year after half life 1 hit the market, that should be near the end of the 90's. ... The endresult: I lost interest in my most anticipated game ever. Waiting 8 years is long enough for anyone to do so. Up to today I never played the game..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL ... good one Cap't'n. Now, get on Steam, and buy TF2. You have punished yourself long enough and deserve the treat. And yes, after these years it still looks fresh.
<!--quoteo(post=1772009:date=May 23 2010, 05:17 AM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ May 23 2010, 05:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1772009"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Heh. So far as I'm concerned, my purchase of NS2 simply paid for the enjoyment I got out of NS1. And if at some point in the future I get a new game out of it as well.. well hey, that's just a bonus.
So feel free to goof off with my money.. it ain't much, but it oughta get you a pizza or something. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1772023:date=May 23 2010, 08:53 AM:name=SgtBarlow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SgtBarlow @ May 23 2010, 08:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1772023"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->$10 in constelation program, $40 on special edition. Playing Since late 2003 few months after Halloween. I know the game is coming, never worried it would not come out, Deserve the money regaurdless, I read what we got with the order after I bought it, ordered without hesitation. If I win a load of money I would certainly give them a chunck if they wanted it with no strings attached.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those two last quotes sum pretty much what I've had in mind all these years: 40$ is a low cost for all the free time I had playing NS1 and... if I won the lottery (well, I never buy tickets but big IF) I'd see that the game is well funded.
Just seeing all the development tools included with the package at this time is a lot. Give the community 4-5 months and we have dozens of playable maps, and of those, probably 10-15 very good ones.
I share the sentiments of the patient and thankful crowd. There are plenty of other games in the sea to keep me busy. The PO money was a thank you for NS1, and whenever this game rolls around I will be ready to play!
Nope, don't speak for me either. Willing to pay twice the amount I have already paid for preorder. Things like this take time, and I am willing to wait for a quality game.
I don't understand the OP's concerns. We're not even half way through this year yet and we're closer to an alpha / beta than we ever were before. The steam client is up and running for speedy updates, their engine is working magnificently even if there are bugs. As has already been said their models and large part of game assets are finished (which is an absolutely massive time sink). There was an update on twitter yesterday talking about the buy menu for aliens, these kind of features are at the upper tier of what you would be programming to make a workable game.
Remember that you always build a game from the ground up and it looks like they're working on some of the more lofty parts of the game. Not long now people!
I'm expecting an alpha within 2-3 months and that alpha will probably look more like a beta.
Comments
I know what they are and they're also silly, they are an overcomplicated to-do list. If you fall behind where you are supposed to be, so what? Assuming you were working as quickly as you can nothing is going to speed that up. As I said when it comes to work, you do everything that needs doing until it's all done. If you stop doing something half way through because a silly chart says you should be doing something else at the moment then you won't get a functioning game out at the end, you'll get a bunch of half finished bits of code and models. Knowing exactly how far behind you are is irrelevant because it does not increase your ability to complete things quickly.
Things take as long as they do, a schedule is only useful as a predictive tool, not as a tool for making things get done quickly.
Appeasing whiney people is hardly neccesary, releasing good games does more for you than pandering to malcontents. Some people are simply never happy, time is more efficiently spent making a new, better game than desperately trying to win the affection of a tiny number of people.
You know the project is being worked on well and the amount of dedication they put into the videos are in great amounts. I wouldn't want to rush them for the world, as they already seem to be pushing themselves heavily, for such a small team and such a feat - not to mention the expectations.
Well it shows your poor understanding of project management. Although I can agree that UWE is probably working speedily towards NS2's release, my point here is that threads like these are the community dynamic. They not only express valid concerns, but also help shape the meaning of urgency and "as fast as possible". Threads like these once in a while thus serve a purpose, so tl;dr - lay off the OP.
I am not trying to be harsh here, but I run a online business myself and if my customers had to wait this long especially after telling them it will be available in fall 2009, they would ask for a refund.
I have a recommendation to the devs, you might want to step this up abit or this community and your reputation will be very bad to say the least.
I have been playing games since the original quake engine and unreal engine, this is by far the longest I have seen any team take to make a game.
Soon, it will get to the point that new games with better graphics will be out anyways and this game will already be old when it launches if it really does launch. I am beginning to wonder if this will ever be done.
I played ns1 and loved it so much, that is why I preordered this game. I also understand you devs have let the community be a part of it, but your walking a thin rope that will soon break.
I know a mod that was done on one of the ea games engines and they did the same thing, they waited too long and the community got tired of waiting and the reputation went down the drain. Dead before it was even realized.
I know you guys know this stuff, but I am quite frustrated myself on how long it is taking the devs to complete this game.
I have a very bad feeling about this.
Suggestion, if you are unable to get this game done in a timely manner, then I suggest you get some help in the dev area to speed things up.
I still have time to file a chargeback on my credit card and I am hoping some good news comes soon so I don't have to.
Forgive me, I am frustrated about paying for something that has yet to work. No alpha, no beta, just engine test on steam to pacify the time. Looks bad.
The word is already getting out that this game might flake out and if you do not get it out before SC2, then this game might end up like AVP.
<a href="http://forums.voogru.com/general-gaming/12620-natural-selection-2-a-18.html" target="_blank">http://forums.voogru.com/general-gaming/12...ion-2-a-18.html</a> (not the only site mentioning this)
I hope you guys show us all differently and very soon!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"I have a recommendation to the devs, you might want to step this up abit or this community and your reputation will be very bad to say the least."
You my friend, and I speak on behalf of 99.99999% of the community are a c*ck.
Unfortunately, it is people such as yourself who invest money, and want things rushed forward. If you got your way, we would end up with an incomplete, buggy, crap game.
Now, again, I speak on behalf of the community when I say if your not happy - Get a refund, we dont need people to whine, it just winds people up.
You invested good money to help the development of a game - not to rush it forward.
If you want something built / completed properly throwing more people at the problem does not solve it - Surely you should understand this having a business of your own?
More developers would just mean more pieces to a puzzle, people getting in the way of each other.
Shame this forum is filled up with 'know it all, I can do much better' whiners.
Just wait...
Heh. So far as I'm concerned, my purchase of NS2 simply paid for the enjoyment I got out of NS1. And if at some point in the future I get a new game out of it as well.. well hey, that's just a bonus.
So feel free to goof off with my money.. it ain't much, but it oughta get you a pizza or something. :)
Well yes actually I missed something, they are quite good for organising a big team, because individual people have limited skill ranges, and some things need to be done in specific orders, so you should organise people so that you have a good weighting of specilaisations, if you don't have to do much code but do need lots of art then hire more artists and set them to work on the things that need doing for the coders to test their first bits of work and whatnot.
But that doesn't apply very much when you have about half a dozen people, if you have three artists and need lots of art doing, it's going to take a lot of time, no amount of project management will help you, and if it takes longer than the schedule the only real solution is 'hire more people' which small companies do not have the luxury of doing willy nilly. We already know they're focussing on the refinery art set, and getting the engine working on as many platforms as possible before building more things on top of it, those seem like pretty good priorities to me, there isn't much else needed other than <b>more time</b> to actually implement them.
Unless you expect the devs to start sleeping in the broom closet at the office, you can't make them go faster than they already are.
As has been pointed out there are far greater urgencies than pleasing a bunch of plebs on a forum somewhere, the entire company and future financial wellbeing of the developers rests on the game, that has far more weight than a bunch of unpleasable oiks on a forum. Saying threads like this help provide a sense of urgency is like saying that 'oh well your entire future is at stake here and success or failure impacts a lot of people you know and like personally, but also this guy somewhere you've never met is indignant about your lack of progress SO YOU SHOULD SPEED UP TO MAKE HIM HAPPY!'
Kinda arbitrary in other words.
I know the game is coming, never worried it would not come out, Deserve the money regaurdless, I read what we got with the order after I bought it, ordered without hesitation.
If I win a load of money I would certainly give them a chunck if they wanted it with no strings attached.
I know the game is coming, never worried it would not come out, Deserve the money regaurdless, I read what we got with the order after I bought it, ordered without hesitation.
If I win a load of money I would certainly give them a chunck if they wanted it with no strings attached.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, they definitely deserve the money. Still, for example right now I'd probably be more willing to spend my money on constellation rather than the preorder, because I feel that way I'm kinda voting with my money on what they did with NS1. NS2 is definitely interesting and amazing for an indie project, but I wouldn't be all this attached to it without NS1 having such a huge effect on me.
I just came.
You my friend, and I speak on behalf of 99.99999% of the community are a c*ck.
Unfortunately, it is people such as yourself who invest money, and want things rushed forward. If you got your way, we would end up with an incomplete, buggy, crap game.
Now, again, I speak on behalf of the community when I say if your not happy - Get a refund, we dont need people to whine, it just winds people up.
You invested good money to help the development of a game - not to rush it forward.
If you want something built / completed properly throwing more people at the problem does not solve it - Surely you should understand this having a business of your own?
More developers would just mean more pieces to a puzzle, people getting in the way of each other.
Shame this forum is filled up with 'know it all, I can do much better' whiners.
Just wait...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You most certainly do not speak for 99.99999999% of the community. Even less with an attitude like that - The OP has a valid concern and has to right to speak their mind. Now you may not share their concern, nor look upon the situation as an issue, which is just as valid. However calling names and talking down to someone because they are unsure and have a bad gut feeling, is no way to be a community, nor a representation of anyone in it.
Also, more developers does not mean more people getting in the way of each other..if you experience this, you aren't properly managing your company.
Having a lack of funding for more developers and properly defined roles for them is a whole other matter.
As always..I do most of my time here lurking, reading and re-reading..but I felt someone needed to say this, and it might as well be me.
<3 all
So feel free to goof off with my money.. it ain't much, but it oughta get you a pizza or something. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this.
Personally I don't care how long it takes, there are other games to keep me busy while I wait. I want them to make the best NS2 they can, if that takes until 2012 that's fine with me, maybe I'll even preorder more copies until then. ;)
I know the game is coming, never worried it would not come out, Deserve the money regaurdless, I read what we got with the order after I bought it, ordered without hesitation.
If I win a load of money I would certainly give them a chunck if they wanted it with no strings attached.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 !!!! :)
And cursing UWE for launching pre-orders so long in advance is uncalled for I think, many large game companies have done the same in the past. Take Blizzard and Diablo 3 for example they've also had their pre-orders for well over a year now and still no game, sure it's coming soon and has a release date but it's still the same imo. So UWE is hardly alone in struggling to reach milestones and deadlines etc. And that is Blizzard with roughly 70 people involved in Diablo 3 that's more than 10 times the team on NS2.
How is babby formed?
I think it involves a piece of gum, a balloon animal, and some string...I could be wrong though.
can't run for 2 seconds huh. great start, the credibility of your opinion to me is slowly going down the drain...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am not trying to be harsh here, but I run a online business myself and if my customers had to wait this long especially after telling them it will be available in fall 2009, they would ask for a refund.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Theres a huge difference to running an everyday online business and a creative indie startup. They need capital right from the get go, and if it wasnt for the early preorder support i doubt they'd be advancing as fast as they are now.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have a recommendation to the devs, you might want to step this up abit or this community and your reputation will be very bad to say the least.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you have some secretly recorded footage of the devs in vegas visiting strip clubs and casinos that we havn't seen?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have been playing games since the original quake engine and unreal engine, this is by far the longest I have seen any team take to make a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
at this point your credibility is edging into the negative. are you just trying to troll us?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Soon, it will get to the point that new games with better graphics will be out anyways and this game will already be old when it launches if it really does launch. I am beginning to wonder if this will ever be done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your seriously not impressed by the graphics the engine test showcases given the specs required to run it?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still have time to file a chargeback on my credit card and I am hoping some good news comes soon so I don't have to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good news will come in its own time. Understand this - we are CUSTOMERS, not investors/owners/shareholders. Sure we have buying power via refunds, but other than that we have no right to dictate or subtly imply ultimatums to this fine company. I have good faith the devs are doing what devs do to the best of their ability and no ammount of this trolling will change otherwise. All you did was 'waste' more of their time in making them have to PR it up with a thoughtout post.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Forgive me, I am frustrated about paying for something that has yet to work. No alpha, no beta, just engine test on steam to pacify the time. Looks bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People were saying it looked bad before there was even an engine test. That it was vaporware even. The situation doesnt seem to have changed even after the engine test. Forgive ME, but i am frustrated with trolls who keep messing with the community and pressuring devs to hurry hurry release unpolished work. What will you say after alpha is released? "no beta, just alpha and engine test to pacify the time. Looks bad.."?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The word is already getting out that this game might flake out and if you do not get it out before SC2, then this game might end up like AVP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Timing a release is important, but im sure UWE is more interested in making a quality game that LASTS and has intrinsic value beyond a hype. That was by far the main reason (and paying for ns1) behind my preorder. Besides, if you want to talk about timing, releasing AFTER sc2 is much much more preferable to releasing BEFORE it.
I know the game is coming, never worried it would not come out, Deserve the money regaurdless, I read what we got with the order after I bought it, ordered without hesitation.
If I win a load of money I would certainly give them a chunck if they wanted it with no strings attached.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im on the same page as you, and i to have played NS for that long.
Hell i even offered 10k$ as an Angel investor to insure NS2 will be made, and are still willing to... And i dont care if its released 2010 or 2015. So dont you worry Cory, the mayority of the community has your back, and will see this tru whit you guys.
And remmeber, if you lack money, you can allways extent the Constilation program to NS2 whit new icons or maybe blue flashlights or lazor thingies and what not.
Fall 2009 was an honest mistake. We had some good momentum built up, and really believed we could hit a late fall deadline of a first playable version of the game that we could release to the public. We weren't planning on it being a finished polished version, but we anticipated getting something into your hands by then.
However, development of the tools ended up taking much longer then anticipated, and we had to face some harsh realities of building your own game engine from scratch, with only one graphics/engine/tools programmer. We were also having difficulty finding mappers, we've lost several environment artists to other game companies, and a lot of Charlie's time was eaten up by invester meetings, and the day to day business of running a company. Anyway, to make a long story short, we missed the fall deadline, and shortly thereafter put together an extensive update to the community, in reference to the missed deadline, though I still see people posting that we never informed our community about it.
We've continued to plow ahead, making extensive progress on the game, and trying to work as efficiently and smartly as possible. We use programs such as Pivotal Tracker, to help us make better estimates about our progress. We work some long hours, and on weekends. And still, nothing runs as smoothly as you anticipate. As you can see, just the act of bringing over the engine test to Steam caused a whole host of new problems, which is yet more bugs and issues that the programmers need to spend their time addressing, and not focused on the game itself. Any PR release, blog post, or tools release takes time away from the game development, but we feel its worthwhile to keep our community engaged.
You can't judge the progress of the game off of the engine test. For example, we have all of the alien lifeforms modeled and animated, and in game, (yes, including the Fade) but still need to refine and work out the gameplay. Just because we haven't done a reveal or blog post about something doesn't mean it isn't done. In the case of the Fade we want to do a proper reveal movie, which takes time, and right now we really have our heads down concentrating on the game itself.
We understand that people feel like they've been waiting forever for this game. But keep in mind, NS2 did not go into development right after NS1. It's really only been about a year and a half of solid development time, and most games take at least 2 years with full sized teams, and often can take 3 years or more, if they've developed their own engine and tools from scratch. But since most companies aren't as open with the public with the behind the scenes development of the game, people don't even know there is a game until the publisher decides to reveal it when those games are already quite far along in the development.
Yes, we've missed some deadlines, both external and internal. Yes we feel bad that people have paid money for the game, and are still anxiously waiting to play it. But please have some faith and patience, and bear with us a little longer. We are not vaporware, we are not goofing off with your money, and we have more invested in the success of this game and company then anyone.
There will be some upcoming announcements soon that will help to give you a better sense of the state and progress of things.
Thanks for your ongoing support.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
might be worth putting something like that news page - not everyone digs through the forums (especially since most people that complain on the forum have only 1 post or so)
- some Sounds!
- some Effects!
- some Animations?
- Performance Engine&Netcode?
- UI + Commander Mode!
I bet the next REAL Fridaynews will be the commander-mode
Then Fade, Marine & Alien Structures, some filler news like Cinematic Editor/Decoda Tutorials, and finally
Alpha ~ July
Beta ~ early September
Release late october/early november
If they fail:
Beta ~ early October
Release ~ X-Mas/2011
Wow, you missed the entire Atari/Coleco/NES/Commodore/Amiga/Sega/SNES... era.
<!--quoteo(post=1771859:date=May 21 2010, 09:35 PM:name=oscpro)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (oscpro @ May 21 2010, 09:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1771859"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The word is already getting out that this game might flake out and if you do not get it out before SC2, then this game might end up like AVP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How exactly is NS2 related to SC2?
Oh yeah, people will say: "I already bought one game where two species battle over extra terrestrial locations, let's pass this one up.... oohhh WW2 shooter, let's get this." I simply see no logic in the SC2 argument.
<!--quoteo(post=1771919:date=May 22 2010, 05:45 AM:name=GeneralBowser)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GeneralBowser @ May 22 2010, 05:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1771919"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyone remember TF2? It was announced about a year after half life 1 hit the market, that should be near the end of the 90's. ...
The endresult: I lost interest in my most anticipated game ever. Waiting 8 years is long enough for anyone to do so. Up to today I never played the game..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL ... good one Cap't'n. Now, get on Steam, and buy TF2. You have punished yourself long enough and deserve the treat. And yes, after these years it still looks fresh.
<!--quoteo(post=1772009:date=May 23 2010, 05:17 AM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ May 23 2010, 05:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1772009"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Heh. So far as I'm concerned, my purchase of NS2 simply paid for the enjoyment I got out of NS1. And if at some point in the future I get a new game out of it as well.. well hey, that's just a bonus.
So feel free to goof off with my money.. it ain't much, but it oughta get you a pizza or something. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1772023:date=May 23 2010, 08:53 AM:name=SgtBarlow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SgtBarlow @ May 23 2010, 08:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1772023"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->$10 in constelation program, $40 on special edition. Playing Since late 2003 few months after Halloween.
I know the game is coming, never worried it would not come out, Deserve the money regaurdless, I read what we got with the order after I bought it, ordered without hesitation.
If I win a load of money I would certainly give them a chunck if they wanted it with no strings attached.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those two last quotes sum pretty much what I've had in mind all these years: 40$ is a low cost for all the free time I had playing NS1 and... if I won the lottery (well, I never buy tickets but big IF) I'd see that the game is well funded.
Just seeing all the development tools included with the package at this time is a lot. Give the community 4-5 months and we have dozens of playable maps, and of those, probably 10-15 very good ones.
Keep on crying, it'll wash your eyes.
I'd pre-order again.
Remember that you always build a game from the ground up and it looks like they're working on some of the more lofty parts of the game. Not long now people!
I'm expecting an alpha within 2-3 months and that alpha will probably look more like a beta.