Just to clarify, the way I've seen the complexity and depth thingies:
As Steve already partitially mentioned, NS1 had it's complexity in quick, mobile and dynamic play. Situations come and go quickly and it takes a lot of experience to be able to take in all the information and act accordingly. There is constantly both macro scale map control/pressure war and micro scale positional dynamics going on and they mess up each other more often than not. At least on public games you'll see a lot of people being completely clueless on how to adapt to specific situations as they come.
I think what most people mean with NS2 getting simplified is that NS2 becoming more stationary and easily predictable. The possible reduction of movement abilities and addition of powerful defensive abilities like lockdown could mean reduction in micro scale options. Power grid on the other hand could reduce the amount of map control options by immense amounts and basically force a simplified trench warfare instead of the skirmishing all over the place we've seen on NS1.
The possibility of losing that situational variability of NS micro and macro gameplays has crossed my mind more than a few times. I can understand the argument that NS is actually getting simplified a lot, despite the extra features they'll keep adding. I don't even want to guess how things will turn out and I don't want to pick sides at this point, but I think it's good to acknowledge the possibilities and risks of the new features.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
I think some people forget how complex damage was in NS1. There were multiple damage types and there was scaling damage absorption with multiple hives that really was quite complex to understand and almost certainly couldn't really be grasped by a casual player based on the representation of damage in the game.
I do share concerns that what has been outlined might be a little too complex BUT if it is intuitive then it can be much more complex than what was in NS1 and still be easier to grasp and utilise both tactically and strategically. I really like the idea of keeping the skulk viable in the late via the damage system.
This is a cool idea, but you guys should be careful about adding in so many different damage types, as they can be quite hard to balance. Every element you add into your game adds to the difficulty to balance it in a multiplicative (sp?) way because every element interacts with each other. You should probably try to keep something like this simpler than you'd ideally like.
Don't forget that you're making an FPS/RTS game, which is inherently already a nightmare to balance because besides all the numbercrunching that goes on at the RTS side, there's also the element of artificially having to 'balance' playerskill. So it's not a good idea to go overboard with adding in features and mechanics. What i'm really trying to say is, good idea, but be careful. I hope that makes sense.
<!--quoteo(post=1774360:date=Jun 11 2010, 10:22 AM:name=SHAFTTHEGIMP)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SHAFTTHEGIMP @ Jun 11 2010, 10:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774360"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yer so if the gun is small how huch dmg 2 big targets. And what aliebs are resistant to whae guns, and what about hit boxs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't understand all of this, but I do hope that the team's stance is that there will be no locational damage, ie. a headshot is the same as a toeshot.
<!--quoteo(post=1774435:date=Jun 12 2010, 05:05 AM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Jun 12 2010, 05:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774435"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I didn't understand all of this, but I do hope that the team's stance is that there will be no locational damage, ie. a headshot is the same as a toeshot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Er what, why? hitbox locations are more realistic in most instances. We are still dealing with vital organs here.
It's not a matter of realism, it's a matter of gameplay. A skulk or a lerk peeking out from a vent is basically showing its head. The fade needs to be somewhat resistant to headshots due to its place in the game, however this shouldn't imply being too strong to regular shots.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
<!--quoteo(post=1774464:date=Jun 12 2010, 10:41 AM:name=Rothgar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rothgar @ Jun 12 2010, 10:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774464"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Er what, why? hitbox locations are more realistic in most instances. We are still dealing with vital organs here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> you're assuming that vital organs of these ALIENS are in the same areas as humans.
<!--quoteo(post=1774486:date=Jun 12 2010, 01:38 PM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (schkorpio @ Jun 12 2010, 01:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774486"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you're assuming that vital organs of these ALIENS are in the same areas as humans.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No I was referring to "hitboxes" in general I saw no reference as to where vital organs would be located.
For the people who are concerned that in reality buckshot from a shotgun performs poorly against armoured targets, I think that I have a simple solution:
Just say that in the future, standard space marine shotgun ammunition is flechette shot shells.
It wouldn't be far-fetched since they already exist. In a slightly futuristic context it would make sense that they can penetrate hard armour plating. It would also make sense that they spread in a pattern just like buckshot. And flechette rounds have proven to cause very light damage to soft unprotected targets in reality. But we could explain the additional damage to armoured targets by the deformation of the flechettes after they have went through a hard barrier (if you really feel the need to explain it that far). Problem solved.
I'd personally think it would be great if you could shoot a hard steel wall in the game and find flechettes being stuck halfway in the wall after. I believe that it would also be a first and that it would contribute to the uniqueness of the NS2 style.
Comments
As Steve already partitially mentioned, NS1 had it's complexity in quick, mobile and dynamic play. Situations come and go quickly and it takes a lot of experience to be able to take in all the information and act accordingly. There is constantly both macro scale map control/pressure war and micro scale positional dynamics going on and they mess up each other more often than not. At least on public games you'll see a lot of people being completely clueless on how to adapt to specific situations as they come.
I think what most people mean with NS2 getting simplified is that NS2 becoming more stationary and easily predictable. The possible reduction of movement abilities and addition of powerful defensive abilities like lockdown could mean reduction in micro scale options. Power grid on the other hand could reduce the amount of map control options by immense amounts and basically force a simplified trench warfare instead of the skirmishing all over the place we've seen on NS1.
The possibility of losing that situational variability of NS micro and macro gameplays has crossed my mind more than a few times. I can understand the argument that NS is actually getting simplified a lot, despite the extra features they'll keep adding. I don't even want to guess how things will turn out and I don't want to pick sides at this point, but I think it's good to acknowledge the possibilities and risks of the new features.
I do share concerns that what has been outlined might be a little too complex BUT if it is intuitive then it can be much more complex than what was in NS1 and still be easier to grasp and utilise both tactically and strategically. I really like the idea of keeping the skulk viable in the late via the damage system.
Don't forget that you're making an FPS/RTS game, which is inherently already a nightmare to balance because besides all the numbercrunching that goes on at the RTS side, there's also the element of artificially having to 'balance' playerskill. So it's not a good idea to go overboard with adding in features and mechanics. What i'm really trying to say is, good idea, but be careful. I hope that makes sense.
I didn't understand all of this, but I do hope that the team's stance is that there will be no locational damage, ie. a headshot is the same as a toeshot.
Er what, why? hitbox locations are more realistic in most instances. We are still dealing with vital organs here.
you're assuming that vital organs of these ALIENS are in the same areas as humans.
No I was referring to "hitboxes" in general I saw no reference as to where vital organs would be located.
Just say that in the future, standard space marine shotgun ammunition is flechette shot shells.
It wouldn't be far-fetched since they already exist. In a slightly futuristic context it would make sense that they can penetrate hard armour plating. It would also make sense that they spread in a pattern just like buckshot. And flechette rounds have proven to cause very light damage to soft unprotected targets in reality. But we could explain the additional damage to armoured targets by the deformation of the flechettes after they have went through a hard barrier (if you really feel the need to explain it that far). Problem solved.
I'd personally think it would be great if you could shoot a hard steel wall in the game and find flechettes being stuck halfway in the wall after. I believe that it would also be a first and that it would contribute to the uniqueness of the NS2 style.