Competitive support

neilm86

I'm fully aware that NS2 is still very much in its development stage and these issues and features are way down the development process but please, can we ensure that the competitive community is NOT neglected!

Too many games these days have little or no competitive support, mostly due to console porting. It is essesntial that we are given all features necassary for complete competitive support. This will add an extra element to the game and increase its longevity.

The features which we need are:

Demo recording and playback
Fully customizable sv and cl cvars
Full RCON support
Effective anti-cheat
Private/Passworded Servers

I realise some of these points are a given but i still think a comprehensive list would be helpful for the devs. I dont have time to think this through fully right now but if you think theres anything missing, please pitch in!

Thanks

Crispy

I was afraid this was going to be a hideously unrealistic thread but what you're asking to isn't that demanding what what I can tell.

fanatic

Anti-cheat is unrealistic to expect and we already have a good solution used in NS tournaments -- shouldn't be too hard to adapt or recreate for NS2. The rest I agree on.

Basic customization should be available, for instance the HUD and crosshairs.
Something similar to mp_tournamentmode in NS is a "must have".

Syknik

As far as I can remember Flayra, loves the competitive scene. He has watched more than his fair share of matches in NS1. I'm sure he will do what's possible for him to do for the NS2 v1.0 release. I doubt though that what you're asking will make it into V1.0 though. But eventually I suspect that it will.

Crispy

<!--quoteo(post=1780111:date=Jul 17 2010, 03:24 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 17 2010, 03:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1780111"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anti-cheat is unrealistic to expect and we already have a good solution used in NS tournaments -- shouldn't be too hard to adapt or recreate for NS2. The rest I agree on.

Basic customization should be available, for instance the HUD and crosshairs.
Something similar to mp_tournamentmode in NS is a "must have".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well VAC is enough that cheaters will have to get a new account every time they want to cheat. The rest is always going to have to rely on referees and demo playback, as is the case with most games. I'm not a fan of invasive anti-cheat anyway.

marks

Since when was VAC2 engine non-specific? I thought it was only compatible with Source games.

Also:
<!--quoteo(post=1780078:date=Jul 17 2010, 02:40 PM:name=neilm86)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (neilm86 @ Jul 17 2010, 02:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1780078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The features which we need are:

Fully customizable sv and cl cvars<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

You wanna be careful with that one, just ask mu ... ;D

Pato

The devs here have a huge opportunity. Since they have already supplied modtools it's very likely most if not all those options will be implemented. And to have NS2 as an e-sports title by itself would be amazing.

Necro

personally something i find essential is a clan variable which resets the ma when teams say ready etc.

not really required but it sure does making getting a match going much easier

Whiteblade

<!--quoteo(post=1780119:date=Jul 17 2010, 04:39 PM:name=marks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (marks @ Jul 17 2010, 04:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1780119"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since when was VAC2 engine non-specific? I thought it was only compatible with Source games.

Also:


You wanna be careful with that one, just ask mu ... ;D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I've heard Modern Warfare 2 uses VAC.

Thaldarin

<!--quoteo(post=1780078:date=Jul 17 2010, 01:40 PM:name=neilm86)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (neilm86 @ Jul 17 2010, 01:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1780078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm fully aware that NS2 is still very much in its development stage and these issues and features are way down the development process but please, can we ensure that the competitive community is NOT neglected!

Too many games these days have little or no competitive support, mostly due to console porting. It is essesntial that we are given all features necassary for complete competitive support. This will add an extra element to the game and increase its longevity.

The features which we need are:

Demo recording and playback
Fully customizable sv and cl cvars
Full RCON support
Effective anti-cheat
Private/Passworded Servers

I realise some of these points are a given but i still think a comprehensive list would be helpful for the devs. I dont have time to think this through fully right now but if you think theres anything missing, please pitch in!

Thanks<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Full RCON Support? It's not GoldSrc/Source.

NS2 iirc is aimed at casual and competitive play. Competitive players were among the first to test and input feedback. I suggest waiting to see whether server passwording, demo's, anti-cheat etc. are included nearer release before shouting about them though, you never know what is in a dev teams pipeline ;)

rennex

Something like HLTV/SourceTV would be huge.

fanatic

Last word from the devs on mass spectating was "not at first release, but hopefully soon after" (paraphrased), but this may change. It would be great, but the other points on the list, especially replay recording, are more important.

goblin

i can't search for the HLTV or demo answer, but if i remember, a dev posted that there will be in, but probably, not at 1.0

Crispy

<!--quoteo(post=1780259:date=Jul 18 2010, 02:27 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 18 2010, 02:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1780259"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Last word from the devs on mass spectating was "not at first release, but hopefully soon after" (paraphrased), but this may change. It would be great, but the other points on the list, especially replay recording, are more important.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Replay is especially important in terms or testing. You can have an entirely new playerbase and as long as you ensure you get 90% of them to start demo recording before a playtest, you'll have invaluable info come the end of th PT. It makes sense in more ways that just competitive.

ctoon6

no idea why you guys call it by the source/hl1 names, and i doubt the engine will work anything like source.

but, whatever they do, the need to document it, i hate nothing more than for someone to make a great piece of work, then there not be any official documentation to fully make use of the product. (*cough* valve *cough*)

Crispy

<!--quoteo(post=1780296:date=Jul 18 2010, 05:30 AM:name=ctoon6)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ctoon6 @ Jul 18 2010, 05:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1780296"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->no idea why you guys call it by the source/hl1 names, and i doubt the engine will work anything like source.

but, whatever they do, the need to document it, i hate nothing more than for someone to make a great piece of work, then there not be any official documentation to fully make use of the product. (*cough* valve *cough*)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Steamworks

spellman23

Steamworks != engine.

Steamworks = achievements, server browsing, user-key tying, and a suite of handy things to tie into the Steam Client.


That being said, they mentioned a while back that the server can actually take as input most of the Source engine files for models/mapping and use them. Dunno if that's still true.

TSS

IT seems spark allowed .BSP files to run in the editor in the beginning, but i think that was taken out.

Anyway, everybody will reference to HL1/source untill the game comes out because we don't know any of the finalized commands or their formats, but we can imagine similar functions to the HL ones. and NS1 will always be a HL mod. Source mearly has more functions that have come in handy and thus are referenced to.

The symbology will change once we find the equivalent - or lack thereof - of the HL commands in NS2.

RobB

I find it rather bold to come here, create a new account and demand stuff in name of the competive scene with said account with 10 postings.

Wannabe much?

Imo the game has to "flow" first before competive functions can be even thought off.
And most of the requested stuff is pretty default anyway.

Demo recording is a must, as is servers with PW and (remote) administration access.

Pato

Does anyone is enjoying the idea of the possibility of seeing this game used in e-sports? That would be fun.

RobB

Yes, as long as they dont demand redicolous crap *caugh*sandman nerf*caugh*

Pato

<!--quoteo(post=1780397:date=Jul 18 2010, 02:45 PM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Jul 18 2010, 02:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1780397"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, as long as they dont demand redicolous crap *caugh*sandman nerf*caugh*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Don't have any problems as long as they are done as options and not hardcoded to be definitive. As long as variables are modded and able to change at the will of the admin I'll have no problems with it.

Thaldarin

<!--quoteo(post=1780374:date=Jul 18 2010, 12:42 PM:name=TSS)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TSS @ Jul 18 2010, 12:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1780374"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IT seems spark allowed .BSP files to run in the editor in the beginning, but i think that was taken out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Where'd you get that from? This interests me, I've seen VMF importing but not BSP.

tjosan

So you like to judge the validity of ideas and suggestions based on post count instead of whether said idea or suggestion is good? Wannabe much?

<!--quoteo(post=1780377:date=Jul 18 2010, 03:12 PM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Jul 18 2010, 03:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1780377"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I find it rather bold to come here, create a new account and demand stuff in name of the competive scene with said account with 10 postings.

Wannabe much?

Imo the game has to "flow" first before competive functions can be even thought off.
And most of the requested stuff is pretty default anyway.

Demo recording is a must, as is servers with PW and (remote) administration access.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Seker

This is alpha .... theres not that much to play with.... so how bout you let them finish the game until we get the "unecassary" extras ?

TychoCelchuuu

<!--quoteo(post=1780430:date=Jul 18 2010, 11:26 AM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Jul 18 2010, 11:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1780430"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Where'd you get that from? This interests me, I've seen VMF importing but not BSP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The first videos we saw, like the dynamic infestation or the dynamic loading of the TF2 map while textures were edited in real time, were done in the Spark engine.

PneumaticCrab

Simply put: competitive play comes at the cost of public play. Since public players far out weigh competitive ones the conclusions here are obvious; just as scripting should be removed because, for everyone one player doing something legitimate, there are ten out there leap or blinking hacking, so too should the competitive community not be supported for the benefit of the community as a whole.

Grahf

<!--quoteo(post=1780535:date=Jul 18 2010, 06:05 PM:name=PneumaticCrab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PneumaticCrab @ Jul 18 2010, 06:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1780535"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Simply put: competitive play comes at the cost of public play. Since public players far out weigh competitive ones the conclusions here are obvious; just as scripting should be removed because, for everyone one player doing something legitimate, there are ten out there leap or blinking hacking, so too should the competitive community not be supported for the benefit of the community as a whole.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. Competition is bad. We should all just work together and have fun, not try to prove we are superior to others.

Peace.
Love.
Happiness.

rennex

<!--quoteo(post=1780535:date=Jul 18 2010, 06:05 PM:name=PneumaticCrab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PneumaticCrab @ Jul 18 2010, 06:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1780535"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Simply put: competitive play comes at the cost of public play. Since public players far out weigh competitive ones the conclusions here are obvious; just as scripting should be removed because, for everyone one player doing something legitimate, there are ten out there leap or blinking hacking, so too should the competitive community not be supported for the benefit of the community as a whole.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see how demo recording/playback and server cvar control comes to the detriment of pubs.

I'll concede to your point about scripting. Since we're starting over on a new engine, we're better off disabling any kind of scripts from the start to avoid the headaches that come with allowing it imo.

PneumaticCrab

<!--quoteo(post=1780539:date=Jul 18 2010, 05:21 PM:name=Grahf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grahf @ Jul 18 2010, 05:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1780539"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Agreed. Competition is bad. We should all just work together and have fun, not try to prove we are superior to others.

Peace.
Love.
Happiness.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->



Yeah, basically this. The fact of the matter is competitive players are elitist idiots, our community has no chance for cohesion as long as their every whim is being catered to.

Pyromaniac

<!--quoteo(post=1780535:date=Jul 18 2010, 07:05 PM:name=PneumaticCrab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PneumaticCrab @ Jul 18 2010, 07:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1780535"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Simply put: competitive play comes at the cost of public play. Since public players far out weigh competitive ones the conclusions here are obvious; just as scripting should be removed because, for everyone one player doing something legitimate, there are ten out there leap or blinking hacking, so too should the competitive community not be supported for the benefit of the community as a whole.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Competitive play doesn't have to come at the cost of public play. Look at CS and SC. People seem to think it does because they get owned by competive players in pubs now that NS is dying, but that won't happen in a new game that is populated, there will be much more pub players and the communitys will be seperated for a more fun experience on both sides. Both sides of the community feed off of each other and as long as they stay populated there won't be an issue, like in the games I mentioned earlier. People can't hack with scripts either, and if scripts are removed people will result to external macros anyway.