I agree with the OP, the rapid last ditch effort of building a new base right at the end of the game was a strategic and fun aspect of the game.
However my views of this are based on playing the game for "fun" or Pugging. It probably wouldn't be as good for Competitive play (only guessing). That does not mean that it should not be possible though and maybe UWE can add some variables for a "competitive" mode (which could disable certain features) or just a variable to enable/disable this functionality. I never played NS competitively so I hope the game is not being tailored just for competitive "match" based game play.
In relation to the build bots I like them to an extent. They add a new aspect to the game and are useful when you need your team defending for example a horde of aliens yet at the same time are trying to get structures up. It will be interesting to see how it works in the final release though because potentially you can now be building structures and have marines defending for example in the case of a covert single marine building a resource node, he is now able to shoot an on-coming skulk letting the build bot do the work where previously you had to build and try and detect on-coming aliens which will I think change the game mechanics some.
However the cons of build bots that I see are they do not have very much health, they are loud as people have stated and lastly they are not "aware". So in this regard I think an Alien has an advantage as a skulk could just follow said build bot to the destination and know exactly what the marines strategy is.
In the old NS at least a marine would constantly be looking around and would have potentially spotted said alien before getting to the objective.
I am also a bit disappointed about the command chair only able to be dropped in specific locations, I hope they introduce some portable CC's (ALA NS1) in the game.
In relation to marines being able to build, if people are worried about the "build bots" becoming obsolete they should just give the marines a penalty as I think was suggested when building structures say 20-30% slower.
This still gives you the ability to run a covert mission but will take you a longer time to get things setup.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am also a bit disappointed about the command chair only able to be dropped in specific locations, I hope they introduce some portable CC's (ALA NS1) in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> as mentioned above, it's to avoid a pretty intense tactic of CC blocking against desperate onii. at least it was demanded when it came up "back then". And it reduces surprise sieges on hives from <b>within the hive</b>.
<!--quoteo(post=1790226:date=Aug 1 2010, 12:58 PM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Aug 1 2010, 12:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790226"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->as mentioned above, it's to avoid a pretty intense tactic of CC blocking against desperate onii. at least it was demanded when it came up "back then". And it reduces surprise sieges on hives from <b>within the hive</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wouldn't that be fairly easy to solve though with cool-down timers for example though? So you drop a unit, you can not drop another one of said unit for a period of time or until the existing unit dropped has been destroyed?
Or better yet to stop the CC blocking, make it so you have a cool-down on the actual build aspect (i.e. have to hold the CC in this instance in place for a 5 second cool-down before it will drop). This would eliminate the quick structure block dropping you are talking about?
Sure the stop CC blocking by removing the ability to do it at all is the easy fix, but there are other ways they can overcome the issue while still leaving tactical game-play options for the most part in place.
<!--quoteo(post=1789346:date=Jul 30 2010, 10:48 PM:name=Harathan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harathan @ Jul 30 2010, 10:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789346"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know where youre coming from, because I was a sod for building backup bases in bizarre locations. Thing is, it looks likely that NS2 will feature smaller, faster paced maps with little room for expansion of the kind we remember.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My concern with this is that the game will not have as much dynamics or playability. If they try and cookie-cut the game too much it will become more like an RTS or FPS as in there is a few select strategies you can use. NS1 was very dynamic at least for marines because your CC could be anywhere in the map. This made it so that most games were never the same and I strongly believe it is why a number of us still love to play NS1.
Lets face it, if I can only build CC's in a very select few places then it makes it very easy to predict the gameplay and I believe will make the game less appealing when you end up playing the same strategy over and over because you have run into game mechanic limitations.
<!--quoteo(post=1789437:date=Jul 31 2010, 02:09 AM:name=Revi.uk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Revi.uk @ Jul 31 2010, 02:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789437"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This can still be achieved with build bots it's just they need to be escorted, or hope they make it and get the structure up. This also avoids the spam build whereby 5 marines would sprint to a corner of the map and build up a whole base in 30 seconds.
+1 for build bots.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Being able to run into a corner and do a rapid relocate was awesome, massive adrenaline rush and it was not as easy as it sounds, if the aliens are over-runing you so much they have destroyed your main base you can expect they will very quickly crush your second base so you need to rapidly build your spawn portals, armory, CC etc and hope enough of you can get there in time to defend.
<!--quoteo(post=1789439:date=Jul 31 2010, 02:11 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jul 31 2010, 02:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789439"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If marines are able to build then you need to balance the game around them building stuff, meaning the worker will probably build slower and now marines are obligated to help. Personally I like the idea of the commander doing it all himself. It gives him some more active RTS gameplay that doesn't rely on the marines being able to work out their tactics, and lets all the marines focus on covering the bot without anyone being stuck on "Hold E" duty. If the current build rate is too slow it can be increased, or maybe multiple workers can focus build something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Turning the Commander into "more" RTS as in he is basically playing his own game is going to drastically change things I believe. He will be less focused on "teamplay" and more on his own strategy while maybe making calls for assistance. NS1 was a combined effort, Commander had to build or deploy a strategy and marines were obliged to help because they had to build the structures. Now the Commander is doing everything solo and may request some assistance from time-to-time but Marines will be off going rambo (not renegade but marines together) while the commander is unknown to what is happening because he is off building somewhere else and not noticing the attack efforts.
<!--quoteo(post=1789444:date=Jul 31 2010, 02:18 AM:name=Tomas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tomas @ Jul 31 2010, 02:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789444"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've been wondering if it wouldn't be fun to have an upgrade at the armory be a welding torch which would replace one of your weapon slots. Then you could repair/build if the scenario called for it. I do miss building...as odd as it sounds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well yeah, basically a welding torch was valuable in NS1, it allowed you to weld a team-mate and structures to repair them.
The point of the MAC is to give the commander more to do, allow them to actually influence what's happening on the ground. Rather than be infuriated because their only tool to aid their marines was dropping med-kits.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Er Commanders I don't think in good games anyway were "frustrated" they were in charge of dropping all the structures and upgrading them? Including dropping of turrets and PG's and overseeing which expansion and attack plans were futile and deploying new strategies.
<!--quoteo(post=1789554:date=Jul 31 2010, 04:47 AM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Jul 31 2010, 04:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789554"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The "sneaky forward base" thing was kind of fun, but I think part of the point of NS2 is to increase how much teamwork is required and to reduce the effectiveness of an uber player running solo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People going solo is not a "bad" thing, it's a strategy where the other team is occupied and does not realize that meanwhile you have built up a new "base" at another location on the map and are getting ready to launch a counter-attack through phase gates... a single marine is smarter at going covert than the builder bot is going to ever be.
<!--quoteo(post=1789598:date=Jul 31 2010, 06:00 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Jul 31 2010, 06:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789598"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure builder bots are nice, but they can't be everywhere all the time. What happens when you want to ninja something critical? Like a new base because the old one is dead and your not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly, I am also concerned about some custom maps that are sure to come out and even possibly official maps where the builder bot path-finding messes up, example a marine might go through a vent to get to the objective while the builder bot is going through an enemy fortification because it has gone the wrong way.
<!--quoteo(post=1789609:date=Jul 31 2010, 06:07 AM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Jul 31 2010, 06:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789609"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is buildbots are requiring babysitting for the marines to accomplish anything now in terms of expansion. A marine has no role beside attack and defend, and any form of being sneaky goes out the window when the aliens hear "OKIEDOKIE SIR MAM UM COMMANDER".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know right, we are playing a futuristic game and yet this "builder" is loud as ######. I understand the game mechanics in making it noticeable but again that is where marine building was crucial, to be covert.
<!--quoteo(post=1789679:date=Jul 31 2010, 07:33 AM:name=thecowsaysmoo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (thecowsaysmoo @ Jul 31 2010, 07:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789679"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd have to say that the absence of building is kind of sad. As others have stated, Part of the charm of being a marine in NS1 was trying to build stuff where it doesn't belong. Making super turret bases, or hiding in a vent or corner of a map. As one person said "The vulnerability of trying to build a forward turret and hearing a Skulk running in your direction and hoping you will finish the turret in time." that was an awesome aspect of the game. Running around trying to protect a stupid little "builder bot" seems kinda dumb...Especially if you cant "Buy" more of them if the aliens kill one. This seems like a big disadvantage to the marines than how they were previously set-up, with the commander just dropping buildings all over and people being able to build whenever and however they pleased.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I think this is going to make the game less dynamic, you lose a builder bot and are over the other side of the map and having to wait for him to try and make it over again meanwhile the marines are trying to defend while the aliens are now decimating you is I think going to frustrate people and the longevity of the game would decrease.
<!--quoteo(post=1789828:date=Jul 31 2010, 11:21 AM:name=MarshalTT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MarshalTT @ Jul 31 2010, 11:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789828"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->MAC-s should not be a major aspect of the game. They should only exists to help out the commander building at the base if no one is there to do it or repair things. Marines should be able to build, it should be the players roll. (+ same thing with the gorge)
Fixed CC places are lame. It removes the heart of NS.
I managed to play some games as commander with aliens and marines in NS2. So even if its an alpha i can already tell that this is not NS. THIS IS MADNES!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
100% Agree, MAC's are cool and they are going to be a different aspect to the game but they should not be a major aspect.
<!--quoteo(post=1790124:date=Aug 1 2010, 07:42 AM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Aug 1 2010, 07:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790124"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And as has been pointed out elsewhere, the reason matches lasted for 6+ hours is because we weren't all that good. What's the average length of time for a competitive match these days?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What? If the game lasts for 6+ hours it must have been an epic battle. Otherwise one team would of over-run the others. I hope competitive matches are not the core focus of the game. As you are then appealing to a very small fraction of the player-base and the casual gamers looking for a bit of fun are getting shafted with limitations.
<!--quoteo(post=1789459:date=Jul 30 2010, 10:25 AM:name=Revi.uk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Revi.uk @ Jul 30 2010, 10:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789459"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just give up.
Wait till the game is further developed before you start making conclusions on game play that we've yet to see. Demanding sweeping game play changes that will completely change the dynamic of NS2.
(prays that Flayra doesn't listen to these people)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because it's better to catch these things while they are still in development, making it easier to change later on. This is not a "Flayra, change this now" discussion, this is a debate on the merits and issues of having an AI buildbot in the game versus the original marine-building strategy. Some of us like to be vocal about issues we have with the game, as the UWE asked for our feedback.
Wait... they limited where CCs can be dropped? Argh, why is it every time I read these forums there's always another unique sneaky tactic being discarded. Fast relocation's and CC blocking were fine, no-one won any high-end competition because of a CC block, give me a break.
My only concern would be the impact on sneaky operations. Then again, we don't know enough about NS2 to say those won't happen anymore. Getting a PG up at an important location was basically the only tactic that involved sneakiness and building. But PGs are being replaced by some other tech in NS2, that might not even need building. (Not sure if this info is still up to date, phasetech is mentioned in the Lua files.)
<!--quoteo(post=1790226:date=Aug 1 2010, 03:58 AM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Aug 1 2010, 03:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790226"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->as mentioned above, it's to avoid a pretty intense tactic of CC blocking against desperate onii. at least it was demanded when it came up "back then". And it reduces surprise sieges on hives from <b>within the hive</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who the hell ever dropped a CC to surprise siege a hive? :D
<!--quoteo(post=1790297:date=Aug 1 2010, 10:53 AM:name=QuadLMGkill)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (QuadLMGkill @ Aug 1 2010, 10:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790297"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wait... they limited where CCs can be dropped? Argh, why is it every time I read these forums there's always another unique sneaky tactic being discarded. Fast relocation's and CC blocking were fine, no-one won any high-end competition because of a CC block, give me a break.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Currently CCs need a tech point, but IPs can be build anywhere. Kind of rules out full relocs, but forward bases are possible.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Who the hell ever dropped a CC to surprise siege a hive? :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I hae seen two sneak ins and was personally in charge of one. Basicly, it was a relocation each time, but try to hold off a siege with 5 cannons from within a turret farmed base with two ips, an armory and some tech buildings going up.
They where happy when they thought we where down to field marines when the original CC kicked the bucket, but they didnt realize we had relocated behind a hive and we where lucky they didnt spawn before the systems where up. Boy was it hard to stop the marines from completing the sieges before the others where at 99%...
Well, one of the reason I support the new design is that UnknownWorlds will reach a larger audience. When this game is released alot of people will buy it because its an FPS or a "cool alien shooter". By having proxy workers the game is still tactical and haver a large measure of strategy while still maintaining a fun FPS experience. Some people who are unused to the design of NS might be intimidated when they are asked to build and so on, if they just want to shoot things. This way the game can speak to more people; bot the FPS auidence and the more classic NS auidience. Forcing people to build or making the commander rely on people who might hate building stuff would ruin the game in the long run. Also, we haven't seen the full game. It's possible that there may be modes with human building and there may also be more reasons than those we have now for UnknownWolrds to have the proxy workers. /rant
<!--quoteo(post=1790891:date=Aug 2 2010, 11:16 PM:name=Puckthedead)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Puckthedead @ Aug 2 2010, 11:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790891"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, one of the reason I support the new design is that UnknownWorlds will reach a larger audience. When this game is released alot of people will buy it because its an FPS or a "cool alien shooter". By having proxy workers the game is still tactical and haver a large measure of strategy while still maintaining a fun FPS experience. Some people who are unused to the design of NS might be intimidated when they are asked to build and so on, if they just want to shoot things. This way the game can speak to more people; bot the FPS auidence and the more classic NS auidience. Forcing people to build or making the commander rely on people who might hate building stuff would ruin the game in the long run. Also, we haven't seen the full game. It's possible that there may be modes with human building and there may also be more reasons than those we have now for UnknownWolrds to have the proxy workers. /rant<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again.. if you have both, those players could still never, ever build if they so choose to, considering MAC's are STILL in it.
Go vote on: <a href="http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/t...marine_building" target="_blank">http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/t...marine_building</a> (keep the link visible)
Flayra has rendered a decision: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=110696&view=findpost&p=1790890" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1790890</a>
Comments
However my views of this are based on playing the game for "fun" or Pugging. It probably wouldn't be as good for Competitive play (only guessing). That does not mean that it should not be possible though and maybe UWE can add some variables for a "competitive" mode (which could disable certain features) or just a variable to enable/disable this functionality. I never played NS competitively so I hope the game is not being tailored just for competitive "match" based game play.
In relation to the build bots I like them to an extent. They add a new aspect to the game and are useful when you need your team defending for example a horde of aliens yet at the same time are trying to get structures up. It will be interesting to see how it works in the final release though because potentially you can now be building structures and have marines defending for example in the case of a covert single marine building a resource node, he is now able to shoot an on-coming skulk letting the build bot do the work where previously you had to build and try and detect on-coming aliens which will I think change the game mechanics some.
However the cons of build bots that I see are they do not have very much health, they are loud as people have stated and lastly they are not "aware". So in this regard I think an Alien has an advantage as a skulk could just follow said build bot to the destination and know exactly what the marines strategy is.
In the old NS at least a marine would constantly be looking around and would have potentially spotted said alien before getting to the objective.
I am also a bit disappointed about the command chair only able to be dropped in specific locations, I hope they introduce some portable CC's (ALA NS1) in the game.
In relation to marines being able to build, if people are worried about the "build bots" becoming obsolete they should just give the marines a penalty as I think was suggested when building structures say 20-30% slower.
This still gives you the ability to run a covert mission but will take you a longer time to get things setup.
as mentioned above, it's to avoid a pretty intense tactic of CC blocking against desperate onii.
at least it was demanded when it came up "back then".
And it reduces surprise sieges on hives from <b>within the hive</b>.
at least it was demanded when it came up "back then".
And it reduces surprise sieges on hives from <b>within the hive</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wouldn't that be fairly easy to solve though with cool-down timers for example though? So you drop a unit, you can not drop another one of said unit for a period of time or until the existing unit dropped has been destroyed?
Or better yet to stop the CC blocking, make it so you have a cool-down on the actual build aspect (i.e. have to hold the CC in this instance in place for a 5 second cool-down before it will drop). This would eliminate the quick structure block dropping you are talking about?
Sure the stop CC blocking by removing the ability to do it at all is the easy fix, but there are other ways they can overcome the issue while still leaving tactical game-play options for the most part in place.
My concern with this is that the game will not have as much dynamics or playability. If they try and cookie-cut the game too much it will become more like an RTS or FPS as in there is a few select strategies you can use. NS1 was very dynamic at least for marines because your CC could be anywhere in the map. This made it so that most games were never the same and I strongly believe it is why a number of us still love to play NS1.
Lets face it, if I can only build CC's in a very select few places then it makes it very easy to predict the gameplay and I believe will make the game less appealing when you end up playing the same strategy over and over because you have run into game mechanic limitations.
<!--quoteo(post=1789437:date=Jul 31 2010, 02:09 AM:name=Revi.uk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Revi.uk @ Jul 31 2010, 02:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789437"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This can still be achieved with build bots it's just they need to be escorted, or hope they make it and get the structure up. This also avoids the spam build whereby 5 marines would sprint to a corner of the map and build up a whole base in 30 seconds.
+1 for build bots.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Being able to run into a corner and do a rapid relocate was awesome, massive adrenaline rush and it was not as easy as it sounds, if the aliens are over-runing you so much they have destroyed your main base you can expect they will very quickly crush your second base so you need to rapidly build your spawn portals, armory, CC etc and hope enough of you can get there in time to defend.
<!--quoteo(post=1789439:date=Jul 31 2010, 02:11 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jul 31 2010, 02:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789439"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If marines are able to build then you need to balance the game around them building stuff, meaning the worker will probably build slower and now marines are obligated to help. Personally I like the idea of the commander doing it all himself. It gives him some more active RTS gameplay that doesn't rely on the marines being able to work out their tactics, and lets all the marines focus on covering the bot without anyone being stuck on "Hold E" duty. If the current build rate is too slow it can be increased, or maybe multiple workers can focus build something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Turning the Commander into "more" RTS as in he is basically playing his own game is going to drastically change things I believe. He will be less focused on "teamplay" and more on his own strategy while maybe making calls for assistance. NS1 was a combined effort, Commander had to build or deploy a strategy and marines were obliged to help because they had to build the structures. Now the Commander is doing everything solo and may request some assistance from time-to-time but Marines will be off going rambo (not renegade but marines together) while the commander is unknown to what is happening because he is off building somewhere else and not noticing the attack efforts.
<!--quoteo(post=1789444:date=Jul 31 2010, 02:18 AM:name=Tomas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tomas @ Jul 31 2010, 02:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789444"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've been wondering if it wouldn't be fun to have an upgrade at the armory be a welding torch which would replace one of your weapon slots. Then you could repair/build if the scenario called for it. I do miss building...as odd as it sounds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well yeah, basically a welding torch was valuable in NS1, it allowed you to weld a team-mate and structures to repair them.
<!--quoteo(post=1789516:date=Jul 31 2010, 03:57 AM:name=Revi.uk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Revi.uk @ Jul 31 2010, 03:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789516"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good post.
The point of the MAC is to give the commander more to do, allow them to actually influence what's happening on the ground. Rather than be infuriated because their only tool to aid their marines was dropping med-kits.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Er Commanders I don't think in good games anyway were "frustrated" they were in charge of dropping all the structures and upgrading them? Including dropping of turrets and PG's and overseeing which expansion and attack plans were futile and deploying new strategies.
People going solo is not a "bad" thing, it's a strategy where the other team is occupied and does not realize that meanwhile you have built up a new "base" at another location on the map and are getting ready to launch a counter-attack through phase gates... a single marine is smarter at going covert than the builder bot is going to ever be.
<!--quoteo(post=1789598:date=Jul 31 2010, 06:00 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Jul 31 2010, 06:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789598"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure builder bots are nice, but they can't be everywhere all the time. What happens when you want to ninja something critical? Like a new base because the old one is dead and your not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly, I am also concerned about some custom maps that are sure to come out and even possibly official maps where the builder bot path-finding messes up, example a marine might go through a vent to get to the objective while the builder bot is going through an enemy fortification because it has gone the wrong way.
<!--quoteo(post=1789609:date=Jul 31 2010, 06:07 AM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Jul 31 2010, 06:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789609"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is buildbots are requiring babysitting for the marines to accomplish anything now in terms of expansion. A marine has no role beside attack and defend, and any form of being sneaky goes out the window when the aliens hear "OKIEDOKIE SIR MAM UM COMMANDER".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know right, we are playing a futuristic game and yet this "builder" is loud as ######. I understand the game mechanics in making it noticeable but again that is where marine building was crucial, to be covert.
<!--quoteo(post=1789679:date=Jul 31 2010, 07:33 AM:name=thecowsaysmoo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (thecowsaysmoo @ Jul 31 2010, 07:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789679"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd have to say that the absence of building is kind of sad. As others have stated, Part of the charm of being a marine in NS1 was trying to build stuff where it doesn't belong. Making super turret bases, or hiding in a vent or corner of a map. As one person said "The vulnerability of trying to build a forward turret and hearing a Skulk running in your direction and hoping you will finish the turret in time." that was an awesome aspect of the game. Running around trying to protect a stupid little "builder bot" seems kinda dumb...Especially if you cant "Buy" more of them if the aliens kill one. This seems like a big disadvantage to the marines than how they were previously set-up, with the commander just dropping buildings all over and people being able to build whenever and however they pleased.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I think this is going to make the game less dynamic, you lose a builder bot and are over the other side of the map and having to wait for him to try and make it over again meanwhile the marines are trying to defend while the aliens are now decimating you is I think going to frustrate people and the longevity of the game would decrease.
<!--quoteo(post=1789828:date=Jul 31 2010, 11:21 AM:name=MarshalTT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MarshalTT @ Jul 31 2010, 11:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789828"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->MAC-s should not be a major aspect of the game. They should only exists to help out the commander building at the base if no one is there to do it or repair things.
Marines should be able to build, it should be the players roll. (+ same thing with the gorge)
Fixed CC places are lame. It removes the heart of NS.
I managed to play some games as commander with aliens and marines in NS2. So even if its an alpha i can already tell that this is not NS. THIS IS MADNES!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
100% Agree, MAC's are cool and they are going to be a different aspect to the game but they should not be a major aspect.
<!--quoteo(post=1790124:date=Aug 1 2010, 07:42 AM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Aug 1 2010, 07:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790124"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And as has been pointed out elsewhere, the reason matches lasted for 6+ hours is because we weren't all that good. What's the average length of time for a competitive match these days?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What? If the game lasts for 6+ hours it must have been an epic battle. Otherwise one team would of over-run the others. I hope competitive matches are not the core focus of the game. As you are then appealing to a very small fraction of the player-base and the casual gamers looking for a bit of fun are getting shafted with limitations.
Wait till the game is further developed before you start making conclusions on game play that we've yet to see. Demanding sweeping game play changes that will completely change the dynamic of NS2.
(prays that Flayra doesn't listen to these people)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because it's better to catch these things while they are still in development, making it easier to change later on. This is not a "Flayra, change this now" discussion, this is a debate on the merits and issues of having an AI buildbot in the game versus the original marine-building strategy. Some of us like to be vocal about issues we have with the game, as the UWE asked for our feedback.
Then again, we don't know enough about NS2 to say those won't happen anymore.
Getting a PG up at an important location was basically the only tactic that involved sneakiness and building.
But PGs are being replaced by some other tech in NS2, that might not even need building.
(Not sure if this info is still up to date, phasetech is mentioned in the Lua files.)
<!--quoteo(post=1790226:date=Aug 1 2010, 03:58 AM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Aug 1 2010, 03:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790226"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->as mentioned above, it's to avoid a pretty intense tactic of CC blocking against desperate onii.
at least it was demanded when it came up "back then".
And it reduces surprise sieges on hives from <b>within the hive</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who the hell ever dropped a CC to surprise siege a hive? :D
<!--quoteo(post=1790297:date=Aug 1 2010, 10:53 AM:name=QuadLMGkill)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (QuadLMGkill @ Aug 1 2010, 10:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790297"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wait... they limited where CCs can be dropped? Argh, why is it every time I read these forums there's always another unique sneaky tactic being discarded. Fast relocation's and CC blocking were fine, no-one won any high-end competition because of a CC block, give me a break.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Currently CCs need a tech point, but IPs can be build anywhere.
Kind of rules out full relocs, but forward bases are possible.
I hae seen two sneak ins and was personally in charge of one.
Basicly, it was a relocation each time, but try to hold off a siege with 5 cannons from within a turret farmed base with two ips, an armory and some tech buildings going up.
They where happy when they thought we where down to field marines when the original CC kicked the bucket, but they didnt realize we had relocated behind a hive and we where lucky they didnt spawn before the systems where up.
Boy was it hard to stop the marines from completing the sieges before the others where at 99%...
Again.. if you have both, those players could still never, ever build if they so choose to, considering MAC's are STILL in it.
<a href="http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/topics/marine_building" target="_blank">http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/t...marine_building</a>
Personally I even dislike the bots
Go vote on: <a href="http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/t...marine_building" target="_blank">http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/t...marine_building</a>
(keep the link visible)
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=110696&view=findpost&p=1790890" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1790890</a>
Then new robot things will become very welcome in my NS2.