<!--quoteo(post=1792890:date=Aug 8 2010, 12:38 PM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Aug 8 2010, 12:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1792890"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->After all, if you need a marine to defend it, and marines can build, why is the commander spending the resources on the MAC when he could just send the marine and be spending the resources on upgrades for the whole team, including said marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> One extra marine guarding most likely exceeds the cost, it can weld (I assume marines cant), it may provide important scouting information like baserushes etc if your whole team is pushing the otherside and it can bait.
Ejecting comm is something that cannot be avoided unless comming is made completely retarted and foolproof, that is something I rather avoid anyways as it would be boring as hell.
<!--quoteo(post=1792741:date=Aug 8 2010, 03:00 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Aug 8 2010, 03:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1792741"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry, fixed it.
Byproduct of originally writing this in another program.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Post 1 and Post 2 are the same, and I don't think that was intentional?
<!--quoteo(post=1792760:date=Aug 8 2010, 04:49 AM:name=hookuy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hookuy @ Aug 8 2010, 04:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1792760"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS was never a shoot-only game, why should they change one of the unique play style to make it a regular FPS?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I think that argument is ironic, because MAC-only building would have made the game MORE RTS-like, rather than less.
<!--quoteo(post=1792760:date=Aug 8 2010, 04:49 AM:name=hookuy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hookuy @ Aug 8 2010, 04:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1792760"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and you don't feel comfortable with "marines-must-build", then maybe it is not the kind of game for you. Since that is what NS has always been.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Correction.<!--quoteo(post=1792760:date=Aug 8 2010, 04:49 AM:name=not hookuy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (not hookuy @ Aug 8 2010, 04:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1792760"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and you don't feel comfortable with "marines-must-build", then maybe it <b>was</b> not the kind of game for you. Since that is what NS <b>was</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1792894:date=Aug 8 2010, 06:13 PM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheGivingTree @ Aug 8 2010, 06:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1792894"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you yourself are admitting that MAC's are pretty much worthless on their own, especially as the only unit that could build. I mean by your own admittance your saying players will eject coms who build MAC's doesn't this in itself show how much of a burden they would be?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know how you don't understand the concept of an 'intended disadvantage'. It's game balance, it's a game dynamic. It's rock-paper-scissors. People eject comms for making stupid decisions - using a MAC that costs resources instead of a free marine, when the marine can build. If only the MAC is able to build, and the comm uses the MAC to build, it is not a stupid decision.
<!--quoteo(post=1792894:date=Aug 8 2010, 05:13 AM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheGivingTree @ Aug 8 2010, 05:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1792894"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you yourself are admitting that MAC's are pretty much worthless on their own, especially as the only unit that could build. I mean by your own admittance your saying players will eject coms who build MAC's doesn't this in itself show how much of a burden they would be?
...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think he was making that point if it was not the only unit that could build - not "especially as the only unit that could". Questions such as: <i>Why are you building that MAC, we can build things ourselves, now much of a base do you want to build anyway? Why should I defend that MAC? We don't need it so I'll ignore it.</i> (admittedly here there's the welding argument - but a lot of the most selfish players would assume that whilst they haven't forked out for a welder themselves, at least one other team mate should have done) Can only really arrive if the MAC isn't important for getting things done. As you say, a team playing well might agree to use MACs only and support them etc - but throw in some freedom and an assumption that they're useless and it could be harder to get marines to follow it.
It might just be on NS1 public servers, but I've seen plenty of things built without any supporting team without sign of attack from aliens
I saw it mentioned briefly somewhere in one of the two dozen threads on the matter, portable MACs (if the comm chooses the 'allow to be carried' option for the MAC) where the carrying marine can move at full speed but can't shoot (carrying a MAC) would move the 'defenceless builder' to the 'defenceless carrier' and make it more like escorting a person than an AI player. Of course you could put the MAC down too and then it'd get on with welding/building while the marine runs off or shoots some things.
As long as all the points have been raised then it's probably not worth arguing about their relative merits until things can be tried properly.
<!--quoteo(post=1792900:date=Aug 8 2010, 07:15 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Aug 8 2010, 07:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1792900"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One extra marine guarding most likely exceeds the cost, it can weld (I assume marines cant), it may provide important scouting information like baserushes etc if your whole team is pushing the otherside and it can bait.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That will probably depend on map design as I would agree that sending a marine to a far away hallway or somewhere useless would be costly. That said, UWE has said NS2 maps are slightly bigger than co_ maps, smaller than most ns_ maps, and they will consist of six to ten rooms. When two of those rooms are spawn points it makes you wonder if the fuss about escorting is necessary.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you yourself are admitting that MAC's are pretty much worthless on their own, especially as the only unit that could build. I mean by your own admittance your saying players will eject coms who build MAC's doesn't this in itself show how much of a burden they would be?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because you can't even comprehend what he is typing maybe you should stop replying. Add in the fact that you're <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=110696&view=findpost&p=1792733" target="_blank">completely ignorant to the changes in NS2</a> and I think I make a pretty strong case. If only Judge Judy were here...
Here's the bottom line with MAC only construction;
1) We do not know for certain how they would have affected the marine's tension (tension of keeping it alive / taking hits for it / etc) and how much of a burden escorting one would be (smaller maps than NS1). 2) It's safe to say that being a commander in NS2 needs some major improvements and being able to control a vital unit to the team, from the get go, could have been that major improvement.
Something potentially huge for the commander was removed because a relatively small amount people isolated that one feature, pretended we were all in NS1, then complained on the forums. For some reason, UWE listened. Imagine if people did the same thing to the power grid system. "You mean we can't ninja phase gate!?" There would be heart attacks.
<!--quoteo(post=1792905:date=Aug 8 2010, 04:48 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Aug 8 2010, 04:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1792905"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Post 1 and Post 2 are the same, and I don't think that was intentional?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
dangit!
Fixed that too now.
I should really check these things more carefully.
I love playing NS and so do many others. It’s not going away. I feel that NS2 should be a different game not just an upgrade. The ability for troops to build is not the keystone of the game. This is the alpha release. We have until the gamma release to work out the final version. My guess is that we will have a lot of time until then.
<!--quoteo(post=1792905:date=Aug 8 2010, 06:48 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Aug 8 2010, 06:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1792905"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Post 1 and Post 2 are the same, and I don't think that was intentional?
I think that argument is ironic, because MAC-only building would have made the game MORE RTS-like, rather than less.
Correction.
I don't know how you don't understand the concept of an 'intended disadvantage'. It's game balance, it's a game dynamic. It's rock-paper-scissors. People eject comms for making stupid decisions - using a MAC that costs resources instead of a free marine, when the marine can build. If only the MAC is able to build, and the comm uses the MAC to build, it is not a stupid decision.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah I see, the same team that made NS1 with marine building, will be completely incompetent when it comes to balancing NS2.. wow people seriously have this little faith in the team? It will be balanced, it will be MORE dynamic, be happy how about?
<!--quoteo(post=1792975:date=Aug 9 2010, 12:42 AM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheGivingTree @ Aug 9 2010, 12:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1792975"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ah I see, the same team that made NS1 with marine building, will be completely incompetent when it comes to balancing NS2.. wow people seriously have this little faith in the team? It will be balanced, it will be MORE dynamic, be happy how about?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Blind faith is foolish.
<!--quoteo(post=1792975:date=Aug 8 2010, 09:42 PM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheGivingTree @ Aug 8 2010, 09:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1792975"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ah I see, the same team that made NS1 with marine building, will be completely incompetent when it comes to balancing NS2.. wow people seriously have this little faith in the team? It will be balanced, it will be MORE dynamic, be happy how about?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1793229:date=Aug 10 2010, 01:07 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Aug 10 2010, 01:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1793229"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Blind faith is foolish.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah, but in this case it is not "blind" faith. The person behind NS2 is also the same person behind NS1. He did a wonderful job on the first version, and I expect nothing else from NS2. That is based on previous experience.
But I do agree that "Blind faith is foolish". That statement just has no bearing in this context.
<!--quoteo(post=1792894:date=Aug 8 2010, 05:13 AM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheGivingTree @ Aug 8 2010, 05:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1792894"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you yourself are admitting that MAC's are pretty much worthless on their own, especially as the only unit that could build. I mean by your own admittance your saying players will eject coms who build MAC's doesn't this in itself show how much of a burden they would be?
But that is just going off by your opinion, because I know for myself if I was commanding I would use MAC's and I'm pretty sure most people that posses any sort of common sense wouldn't eject me for it.
All in all and I will say this for the last time, ANYTHING, and I repeat, ANYTHING you can do with only MAC's building you can STILL do... key word STILL do with marines being able to build as well. You potentially can play an entire game where marines do nothing but escort and guard the MAC's while they do ALL the building. And if your argument is well that won't happen because marines will build then good, if people are CHOOSING to do it obviously it must be more effective and fun because otherwise, they would have either someone else build or a MAC do it.
So with them adding building in for marines everyone wins, those that don't want it, have the CHOICE to never, ever, ever build, or if they com to never tell or have a marine build a single thing and only use MAC's, simple huh?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What I think he was saying is that MACs could be considered worthless with marine building. If the MACs and marines can build its sometime easier to just have a marine try to build something. If only MACs can build, it becomes a vital central game play mechanic, largely affecting decision making and strategy.
And it honestly looks to me like a part of the NS1 player (represented on this forum) base refuse to even try this new mechanic. They favor NS2 being more like ns1, and less of something new, different and potentially better. Marines building had a good run and was fun, but we should take the opportunity of a new game to try a new mechanic shouldn't we?
Comments
One extra marine guarding most likely exceeds the cost, it can weld (I assume marines cant), it may provide important scouting information like baserushes etc if your whole team is pushing the otherside and it can bait.
Ejecting comm is something that cannot be avoided unless comming is made completely retarted and foolproof, that is something I rather avoid anyways as it would be boring as hell.
Byproduct of originally writing this in another program.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Post 1 and Post 2 are the same, and I don't think that was intentional?
<!--quoteo(post=1792760:date=Aug 8 2010, 04:49 AM:name=hookuy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hookuy @ Aug 8 2010, 04:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1792760"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS was never a shoot-only game, why should they change one of the unique play style to make it a regular FPS?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I think that argument is ironic, because MAC-only building would have made the game MORE RTS-like, rather than less.
<!--quoteo(post=1792760:date=Aug 8 2010, 04:49 AM:name=hookuy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hookuy @ Aug 8 2010, 04:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1792760"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and you don't feel comfortable with "marines-must-build", then maybe it is not the kind of game for you. Since that is what NS has always been.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Correction.<!--quoteo(post=1792760:date=Aug 8 2010, 04:49 AM:name=not hookuy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (not hookuy @ Aug 8 2010, 04:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1792760"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and you don't feel comfortable with "marines-must-build", then maybe it <b>was</b> not the kind of game for you. Since that is what NS <b>was</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1792894:date=Aug 8 2010, 06:13 PM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheGivingTree @ Aug 8 2010, 06:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1792894"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you yourself are admitting that MAC's are pretty much worthless on their own, especially as the only unit that could build. I mean by your own admittance your saying players will eject coms who build MAC's doesn't this in itself show how much of a burden they would be?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know how you don't understand the concept of an 'intended disadvantage'. It's game balance, it's a game dynamic. It's rock-paper-scissors.
People eject comms for making stupid decisions - using a MAC that costs resources instead of a free marine, when the marine can build. If only the MAC is able to build, and the comm uses the MAC to build, it is not a stupid decision.
...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think he was making that point if it was not the only unit that could build - not "especially as the only unit that could".
Questions such as:
<i>Why are you building that MAC, we can build things ourselves, now much of a base do you want to build anyway?
Why should I defend that MAC? We don't need it so I'll ignore it.</i> (admittedly here there's the welding argument - but a lot of the most selfish players would assume that whilst they haven't forked out for a welder themselves, at least one other team mate should have done)
Can only really arrive if the MAC isn't important for getting things done. As you say, a team playing well might agree to use MACs only and support them etc - but throw in some freedom and an assumption that they're useless and it could be harder to get marines to follow it.
It might just be on NS1 public servers, but I've seen plenty of things built without any supporting team without sign of attack from aliens
I saw it mentioned briefly somewhere in one of the two dozen threads on the matter, portable MACs (if the comm chooses the 'allow to be carried' option for the MAC) where the carrying marine can move at full speed but can't shoot (carrying a MAC) would move the 'defenceless builder' to the 'defenceless carrier' and make it more like escorting a person than an AI player. Of course you could put the MAC down too and then it'd get on with welding/building while the marine runs off or shoots some things.
As long as all the points have been raised then it's probably not worth arguing about their relative merits until things can be tried properly.
That will probably depend on map design as I would agree that sending a marine to a far away hallway or somewhere useless would be costly. That said, UWE has said NS2 maps are slightly bigger than co_ maps, smaller than most ns_ maps, and they will consist of six to ten rooms. When two of those rooms are spawn points it makes you wonder if the fuss about escorting is necessary.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you yourself are admitting that MAC's are pretty much worthless on their own, especially as the only unit that could build. I mean by your own admittance your saying players will eject coms who build MAC's doesn't this in itself show how much of a burden they would be?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because you can't even comprehend what he is typing maybe you should stop replying. Add in the fact that you're <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=110696&view=findpost&p=1792733" target="_blank">completely ignorant to the changes in NS2</a> and I think I make a pretty strong case. If only Judge Judy were here...
Here's the bottom line with MAC only construction;
1) We do not know for certain how they would have affected the marine's tension (tension of keeping it alive / taking hits for it / etc) and how much of a burden escorting one would be (smaller maps than NS1).
2) It's safe to say that being a commander in NS2 needs some major improvements and being able to control a vital unit to the team, from the get go, could have been that major improvement.
Something potentially huge for the commander was removed because a relatively small amount people isolated that one feature, pretended we were all in NS1, then complained on the forums. For some reason, UWE listened. Imagine if people did the same thing to the power grid system. "You mean we can't ninja phase gate!?" There would be heart attacks.
dangit!
Fixed that too now.
I should really check these things more carefully.
I think that argument is ironic, because MAC-only building would have made the game MORE RTS-like, rather than less.
Correction.
I don't know how you don't understand the concept of an 'intended disadvantage'. It's game balance, it's a game dynamic. It's rock-paper-scissors.
People eject comms for making stupid decisions - using a MAC that costs resources instead of a free marine, when the marine can build. If only the MAC is able to build, and the comm uses the MAC to build, it is not a stupid decision.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah I see, the same team that made NS1 with marine building, will be completely incompetent when it comes to balancing NS2.. wow people seriously have this little faith in the team? It will be balanced, it will be MORE dynamic, be happy how about?
Blind faith is foolish.
<!--quoteo(post=1793229:date=Aug 10 2010, 01:07 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Aug 10 2010, 01:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1793229"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Blind faith is foolish.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah, but in this case it is not "blind" faith. The person behind NS2 is also the same person behind NS1. He did a wonderful job on the first version, and I expect nothing else from NS2. That is based on previous experience.
But I do agree that "Blind faith is foolish". That statement just has no bearing in this context.
But that is just going off by your opinion, because I know for myself if I was commanding I would use MAC's and I'm pretty sure most people that posses any sort of common sense wouldn't eject me for it.
All in all and I will say this for the last time, ANYTHING, and I repeat, ANYTHING you can do with only MAC's building you can STILL do... key word STILL do with marines being able to build as well. You potentially can play an entire game where marines do nothing but escort and guard the MAC's while they do ALL the building. And if your argument is well that won't happen because marines will build then good, if people are CHOOSING to do it obviously it must be more effective and fun because otherwise, they would have either someone else build or a MAC do it.
So with them adding building in for marines everyone wins, those that don't want it, have the CHOICE to never, ever, ever build, or if they com to never tell or have a marine build a single thing and only use MAC's, simple huh?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What I think he was saying is that MACs could be considered worthless with marine building. If the MACs and marines can build its sometime easier to just have a marine try to build something. If only MACs can build, it becomes a vital central game play mechanic, largely affecting decision making and strategy.
And it honestly looks to me like a part of the NS1 player (represented on this forum) base refuse to even try this new mechanic. They favor NS2 being more like ns1, and less of something new, different and potentially better. Marines building had a good run and was fun, but we should take the opportunity of a new game to try a new mechanic shouldn't we?
Thats how I see it.