You make a fair argument OP. I agree. The devs were wrong to re-add marine-building (even though i wanted it back). They should be firm in their decision that marines kill, commanders command, and robots build (because no player should be forced to hold E all day on 27 sentry turrets, etc).
But i'm not worried because just as their are NS1 commanders that say "we only need 1 base-monkey", that in NS2 the commanders will learn to use bots effectively and almost never ask a marine to build (in fact the decision to build should be something that the marine decides for himself... and not something he must be forced to do by a ridiculous commander, or multiple ridiculous commanders simultaneously commanding the same map). And marines building structures will be kept to a minimum, for example base-relocating and ninja pg-building and that's about it.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2010
There's a flaw in your plan there, last I heard there will be no Pg's or commander dropping buildings out of thin air... The MAC's are still needed for dropping the buildings...
<!--quoteo(post=1794049:date=Aug 13 2010, 08:52 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Aug 13 2010, 08:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1794049"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You make a fair argument OP. I agree. The devs were wrong to re-add marine-building (even though i wanted it back). They should be firm in their decision that marines kill, commanders command, and robots build (because no player should be forced to hold E all day on 27 sentry turrets, etc).
But i'm not worried because just as their are NS1 commanders that say "we only need 1 base-monkey", that in NS2 the commanders will learn to use bots effectively and almost never ask a marine to build (in fact the decision to build should be something that the marine decides for himself... and not something he must be forced to do by a ridiculous commander, or multiple ridiculous commanders simultaneously commanding the same map). And marines building structures will be kept to a minimum, for example base-relocating and ninja pg-building and that's about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow this again? You do understand that plans and ideas change right? They TRIED it that way, Charlie even stated he misses marines building, you know one of the actual developers, and brought it back in. I can't stand how people have this notion that you can NEVER change your plans, especially if it's not working out. It's their game they have every right to do whatever they want with it, especially if one of them doesn't like how it was working out.
<!--quoteo(post=1794067:date=Aug 13 2010, 11:28 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Aug 13 2010, 11:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1794067"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's a flaw in your plan there, last I heard <u>there will be no Pg's</u> or commander dropping buildings out of thin air... The MAC's are still needed for dropping the buildings...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ya i didn't know about this. No Pgs? Well i'm sure the community will re-add them. Doesn't this mean tiny maps, and heavies almost never being used? They would have to severely nerf the aliens speed-movements and buff the marine weapons+armor to make this work. Man this sounds like a game of CO more then anything.
Robots dropping equipment is also... aww no CC in the hive! xD I believe i may join the group that would prefer NS2 to be NS1 + graphics. :P
<!--quoteo(post=1793947:date=Aug 14 2010, 02:52 AM:name=scott.exe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (scott.exe @ Aug 14 2010, 02:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1793947"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->blah blah<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> yeah, sorry if I came off as an arguing angry guy, or whatever
I'm just saying the MAC is not always going to be as stupid and annoying to deal with as some like to say it will be. If you watch starcraft at all, you know that it is possible to manage tons of ######, AND keep your lonely working alive in the enemy base to see what hes doing. I can imagine a good commander would be able to manage MACs to give them higher life expectancies.
I respect your opinion on wanting to build, thats exactly why this thread started with an idea for a compromise. However I feel like it might be worth while to do some play testing with MAC only building, seeing as how it has never been widely play tested before. Who knows, you might like it after a few games. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> uh, what? That was directed at RobB. I'm in <b>agreement</b> with you, as you would be able to tell from my post...
Btw RobB, it's "cries" and "flies". Just sayin'. And yes, "We will see..." Amusing.
<!--quoteo(post=1794080:date=Aug 14 2010, 11:56 AM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheGivingTree @ Aug 14 2010, 11:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1794080"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't stand how people have this notion that you can NEVER change your plans, <b>especially if it's not working out.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sorry, <b>what?</b> Did I miss something and was there actually extensive playtesting done on a playable build to determine that MAC-only building was not working out? I was under the impression that that decision was made prematurely because of an early outcry by the community, but it looks like I was wrong! I sincerely apologise!
The issue for me is that rather than making a committed decision based on 'Macs will build now' the devs have either added it in to please the community, or added it in because in the Alpha's current state it is unable to support welders and pathing well enough.
It is compromise based on community opinion that has no real sway, because no one has actually played the game 'proper' yet. It could become a very wishy washy game to make everyone happy. I certainly don't want to see this as an NS1 with better graphics, because it would be quite boring.
I think it would be best for the commander (hopefully good) to decide what will ultimately be built. The reason is that some people will want to purposely waste resources just to make their team lose. How do i know? from experience in many different games. Many games that require cooperation or allow for someone to mess things up for many other players WILL happen.
However, I do believe marines should be able to help build since they are an able body. One argument against this is that, not all marines would have the knowledge on how the mechanics of the build worked & would therefore not be capable of building or assisting the MACs. What could be a nice suggestion is having some type of mechanic class of marine with significantly lower damage, but with the ability to help progress the building & tech of the whole team. This means they will help progress resources & tech things for the whole team... So it's one soldier out of the battle, for (hopefully) the benefit of the whole team.
----> I do agree with you though, on marines being able to finish buildings @ reduced speed. Where the marines just take time away from their main role, but a mechanic class would be cool if he stuck to building with the commander. Maybe, even a little over powered :) lolol
<!--quoteo(post=1794107:date=Aug 14 2010, 08:40 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Aug 14 2010, 08:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1794107"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->uh, what? That was directed at RobB. I'm in <b>agreement</b> with you, as you would be able to tell from my post...
Btw RobB, it's "cries" and "flies". Just sayin'. And yes, "We will see..." Amusing<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm just saying that micro-ing in an rts-fps hybrid hasn't worked out from my point of view. I played both versions of that fantasy rts-fps, and the commander was allways to busy controlling the minions and keeping them safe so the fps players often had to fight for themselfs without any strategy, intel or support. It was horrible.
Comments
But i'm not worried because just as their are NS1 commanders that say "we only need 1 base-monkey", that in NS2 the commanders will learn to use bots effectively and almost never ask a marine to build (in fact the decision to build should be something that the marine decides for himself... and not something he must be forced to do by a ridiculous commander, or multiple ridiculous commanders simultaneously commanding the same map). And marines building structures will be kept to a minimum, for example base-relocating and ninja pg-building and that's about it.
But i'm not worried because just as their are NS1 commanders that say "we only need 1 base-monkey", that in NS2 the commanders will learn to use bots effectively and almost never ask a marine to build (in fact the decision to build should be something that the marine decides for himself... and not something he must be forced to do by a ridiculous commander, or multiple ridiculous commanders simultaneously commanding the same map). And marines building structures will be kept to a minimum, for example base-relocating and ninja pg-building and that's about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow this again? You do understand that plans and ideas change right? They TRIED it that way, Charlie even stated he misses marines building, you know one of the actual developers, and brought it back in. I can't stand how people have this notion that you can NEVER change your plans, especially if it's not working out. It's their game they have every right to do whatever they want with it, especially if one of them doesn't like how it was working out.
Ya i didn't know about this. No Pgs? Well i'm sure the community will re-add them. Doesn't this mean tiny maps, and heavies almost never being used? They would have to severely nerf the aliens speed-movements and buff the marine weapons+armor to make this work. Man this sounds like a game of CO more then anything.
Robots dropping equipment is also... aww no CC in the hive! xD I believe i may join the group that would prefer NS2 to be NS1 + graphics. :P
yeah, sorry if I came off as an arguing angry guy, or whatever
I'm just saying the MAC is not always going to be as stupid and annoying to deal with as some like to say it will be. If you watch starcraft at all, you know that it is possible to manage tons of ######, AND keep your lonely working alive in the enemy base to see what hes doing. I can imagine a good commander would be able to manage MACs to give them higher life expectancies.
I respect your opinion on wanting to build, thats exactly why this thread started with an idea for a compromise. However I feel like it might be worth while to do some play testing with MAC only building, seeing as how it has never been widely play tested before. Who knows, you might like it after a few games.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
uh, what? That was directed at RobB. I'm in <b>agreement</b> with you, as you would be able to tell from my post...
Btw RobB, it's "cries" and "flies". Just sayin'.
And yes, "We will see..." Amusing.
<!--quoteo(post=1794080:date=Aug 14 2010, 11:56 AM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheGivingTree @ Aug 14 2010, 11:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1794080"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't stand how people have this notion that you can NEVER change your plans, <b>especially if it's not working out.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry, <b>what?</b> Did I miss something and was there actually extensive playtesting done on a playable build to determine that MAC-only building was not working out? I was under the impression that that decision was made prematurely because of an early outcry by the community, but it looks like I was wrong! I sincerely apologise!
It is compromise based on community opinion that has no real sway, because no one has actually played the game 'proper' yet. It could become a very wishy washy game to make everyone happy. I certainly don't want to see this as an NS1 with better graphics, because it would be quite boring.
The reason is that some people will want to purposely waste resources just to make their team lose.
How do i know? from experience in many different games.
Many games that require cooperation or allow for someone to mess things up for many other players WILL happen.
However, I do believe marines should be able to help build since they are an able body.
One argument against this is that,
not all marines would have the knowledge on how the mechanics of the build worked &
would therefore not be capable of building or assisting the MACs.
What could be a nice suggestion is having some type of mechanic class of marine with significantly lower damage,
but with the ability to help progress the building & tech of the whole team. This means they will help progress resources & tech things for the whole team...
So it's one soldier out of the battle, for (hopefully) the benefit of the whole team.
----> I do agree with you though, on marines being able to finish buildings @ reduced speed.
Where the marines just take time away from their main role, but
a mechanic class would be cool if he stuck to building with the commander.
Maybe, even a little over powered :) lolol
Btw RobB, it's "cries" and "flies". Just sayin'.
And yes, "We will see..." Amusing<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm just saying that micro-ing in an rts-fps hybrid hasn't worked out from my point of view.
I played both versions of that fantasy rts-fps, and the commander was allways to busy controlling the minions and keeping them safe so the fps players often had to fight for themselfs without any strategy, intel or support.
It was horrible.