Are MACs and Drifters NPCs?
scott.exe
Join Date: 2010-07-15 Member: 72394Members
Join Date: 2010-07-15 Member: 72394Members
<div class="IPBDescription">genuinely asking for opinions</div>disclaimer: I know its not really a big deal :)
Also let me acknowledge, I do like MACs and MAC building, so I have a bias towards MACs and feel like NPC is a slightly derogatory term. I am setting that aside for this discussion.
People on these forums have recently been referring to MACs and Drifters as NPCs, is this correct? NPC means non player character, but the limitations of this phrase are unclear. As some of you may have seen, I have brought it up in these forums before, saying that the builders were not NPCs, but a fine gentleman retorted that they were non player characters, which kind of makes sense. Now I'm not entirely sure which they are but think it might make for a good discussion.
My reasoning for thinking MACs are not NPCs is that they are controlled directly by players. Their character is controlled by a player, even if it is not full time.
What do you think they are and why?
Also let me acknowledge, I do like MACs and MAC building, so I have a bias towards MACs and feel like NPC is a slightly derogatory term. I am setting that aside for this discussion.
People on these forums have recently been referring to MACs and Drifters as NPCs, is this correct? NPC means non player character, but the limitations of this phrase are unclear. As some of you may have seen, I have brought it up in these forums before, saying that the builders were not NPCs, but a fine gentleman retorted that they were non player characters, which kind of makes sense. Now I'm not entirely sure which they are but think it might make for a good discussion.
My reasoning for thinking MACs are not NPCs is that they are controlled directly by players. Their character is controlled by a player, even if it is not full time.
What do you think they are and why?
Comments
To me NPC in a FPS would be a bot (they're more complex in MMOs, have many sub-types) or possibly a talking head for tutorial / guidance purpose.
MACs / Drifters are a bit of a hybrid a player doesn't directly control their movements (pathfinding etc does) but they do order it around (although they're unlikely to micro it unless they're bored or doing something dangerous with it)
Can't we just appreciate the subtle complexities and not slap a label on it? or if we must 'Commander controlled build bot/organism'?
Think of it from an RTS perspective. All of the units you control in that game do what you say. In fact, they do more, because they can automatically attack and defend enemies that come within range. The MACs and drifters do less than that.
To me NPC in a FPS would be a bot (they're more complex in MMOs, have many sub-types) or possibly a talking head for tutorial / guidance purpose.
MACs / Drifters are a bit of a hybrid a player doesn't directly control their movements (pathfinding etc does) but they do order it around (although they're unlikely to micro it unless they're bored or doing something dangerous with it)
Can't we just appreciate the subtle complexities and not slap a label on it? or if we must 'Commander controlled build bot/organism'?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with them stretching the limits, but I think commanders will micro them a lot, especially with spells in combat and junk. Or to just keep them alive. I had a situation in patch 2 where a skulk was trying to kill my MAC while a marine was trying to kill the skulk, and I just kept running it around, and it only took 2 or 3 hits and was fine. I felt like i was playing starcraft.
A commander may have many of them, but how many PCs a player controls is not part of the definition of PC.
With their voices etc they are clearly characters. They are also non-players. I'm pretty sure this counts as an NPC and if not in its current state I'm pretty sure it will be. I don't think the ability to order them around makes them just 'player characters'.
A player in an fps (the player model) is also just a character that does nothing unless the player inputs his keystrokes. Hecck you could call and afk player and NPC, because that idling is not a result of direct player control, but it is a result of indirect player control. Funny thing slapping labels on things!
–noun
1.
the male of the honeybee and other bees, stingless and making no honey.
2.
a remote control mechanism, as a radio-controlled airplane or boat.
3.
a person who lives on the labor of others; parasitic loafer.
4.
a drudge.
I believe definition 2 is most applicable here Making MAC and Drifters neither PC or NPC but instead drones or equipment, possible once fully implemented they will be as capable as droids which would put them clearly in the NPC role as defined by StarWars RPG.
I know droids can also be PCs in StarWars RPG, but if their are not a directly played by a player they remain a NPC even when following orders of a PC.
A player in an fps (the player model) is also just a character that does nothing unless the player inputs his keystrokes. Hecck you could call and afk player and NPC, because that idling is not a result of direct player control, but it is a result of indirect player control. Funny thing slapping labels on things!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a character not directly controlled by a player, therefore it's an NPC.
If you're going to get philosophical about it then the term is pointless, the acronym is used to denote any character in the world which isn't the avatar of a player, marines and aliens are avatars, macs and drifters are not, end of discussion.
Characters you talk to in RPGs also don't do anything unless you start a conversation with them and prompt them to dispense dialogue by clicking on the various options presented to you, but they are still NPCs.
Technically nothing in the game does anything unless the players starts the program and clicks the button to begin a new game, but that doesn't make every object in the game a player character.
Philosophy is stupid, NPC is just a term for a certain type of entity in the game world, an entity type which builder drones most certainly fall under.
<u><b>Player Controlled A.I. Units</b></u> (PCUs; or CAIs)
That is the loaded/fluffed word in RTS terms.
And to even be more technical, the MAC/Drifter:
Worker/Peon/SCV|Drone(LOL Starcraft)/Harvesters(not really though, since they do not collect resources)
The MASC:
Mechanical(MU)/Armor(AU)/Tank/Artillery
The Drifet is considered to be a Biological Unit(BU), and the MAC a Mechanical Unit(which is also a Worker; dual role).
*****
There, all covered now. I think calling the MASC as MASC, works good, and calling the MAC as the Worker Bot will be much better and less confusing; for all of those of you who can't speak clearly or have any decent hearing(all of you; NS1 Public Servers are my example).
Please explain
The commander moves it and works through it, it responds directly to the player's input. Yes it may also do some things on its own, but the player always has control of it.
I know the later statement can be taken differently, but if you think of girl parts when you hear box and fecal matter, you need to get out of my range.
The commander moves it and works through it, it responds directly to the player's input. Yes it may also do some things on its own, but the player always has control of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I did explain, I also pointed out that by that logic everything in the game is an NPC.
As a rule, if you aren't looking out of its eyes and/or it has some form of AI behind it, it's an NPC.
If you are going to use sophistry and other crap to change the definition to something you prefer then the word loses all meaning and becomes useless, and if in person I probably smack you in the head for being a smartarse.
In an FPS game, the PC is the one with the camera in his head, the NPCs are every other character on the screen.
Just because you assign it a destination rather than it picking one itself doesn't make it a PC, I can do that with most of the NPCs in HL2 if I use the console, but that doesn't make them player characters.
Thats what makes sense to me ;)
Which is where the word 'avatar' comes in. It means 'the physical incarnation of a god' but has been adapted to also mean 'the physical incarnation of a player'.
The avatar, the player character, is the character in the game that IS the player, it's the character that is supposed to be the player's virtual body, the player character in an RTS is usually some unseen commander sitting in a bunker viewing the battlefield from a satellite, a notable difference is the supreme commander games where your avatar is actually the only person on the field and everything else is a robot you control from inside your giant robot suit, if you get killed, the game is over.
Builder bots are not player characters, the player character is inside the comm chair, the builders are NPCs who are controlled by him.
More importantly, they <i>function</i> as non-player characters, the only difference between a builder bot and a combine soldier is that the combine soldier has a bit more AI code which lets it pick its own movement destination and targets, although the majority of its action is actually controlled by scripted events set up by the level designer and triggered by the player unknowingly, but that doesn't make the combine soldiers the level designer's player characters, or the player's PC either despite their actions being directly (if usually unknowingly) controlled by the player's actions.
In a tabletop roleplaying game, the game master controls all the NPCs, but that doesn't make them his PCs, a GMPC which is what you get when you give the GM a PC is a distinct sort of character, the GM plays them like they were a player and not the GM. It's also generally a bad idea because giving the guy who controls the gods a character to play tends to result in that character being overpowered.
So there are quite a lot of elements in play when it coms to deciding what is and is not an NPC, and I promise you that builder bots are in all ways, NPCs.
While the bot and combine soldier are both largely scripted, the bot is still acting to the direct will of a player. I know that technically they are both NPCs when you put it that way, but I still feel that since the bots are directly player controlled that they should have a different label for specificity at least.
An npc may take orders from a player, but that doesnt make it his character.
<!--QuoteBegin-computerhope.com/jargon/p/player.htm+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (computerhope.com/jargon/p/player.htm)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When referring to gaming, a player is another real person playing a game on the same computer or server.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-computerhope.com/jargon/n/npc.htm+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (computerhope.com/jargon/n/npc.htm)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Short for Non-Player Character, a NPC or vendor is a character or monster who is played by the computer and not a real person. An NPC helps add life to a game by creating artificial players, each with their own abilities and/or personalities<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-computerhope.com/jargon/b/bots.htm+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (computerhope.com/jargon/b/bots.htm)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin--># Short for robots, a bot is a fictitious character, programmed character or a piece of software designed to mimic a real character or player.
# A bot may also be a software program designed to do a specific task such as gather a listing of web sites with the latest news, maintaining a web page or chat, etc. Examples of Computer Hope bots include Zero and Hopebot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the big thread people would use NPC to describe the player controlled bots instead of typing "MAC/Drifter" every time.
I hope this makes some kind of sense =)
That's also what a character is as far as most games go. They have a personality, therefore they are characters.
<i>Player Controller Character</i> in video games is exactly that...<b>Player Controlled Character</b>...a <i>Character</i>...<i>Controlled</i>...by a <i>Player</i>
Its is <b>NOT</b> <i>necessarily </i>an Avatar...you cannot restrict the definition a <i>player controlled character </i>to only an Avatar (although...this is the case in many games....this is not exclusive)..
Yes. they have personality...but even Avatars do (e.g in many games...if you leave your Avatar for a few min...say you go AFK...they will usually start doing some animation to indicate that they are bored etc etc....)
<b>Player Controlled Characters</b>...are <i>Characters Controlled by the Player</i>....that is the definition of the phrase...it is <b>NOT NECESSARILY AN AVATAR</b>
MACs and Drifters are <b>Player Controlled Characters</b>
The only way the MAC would not be considered an NPC is if someone (such as the commander) could control its every movement not just tell it where to go and what to do.
The only way the MAC would not be considered an NPC is if someone (such as the commander) could control its every movement not just tell it where to go and what to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If a marine were to tape down his "w" key, is he suddenly an NPC?
You're assuming that "character"="avatar" which is what we were just pointing out isn't necessarily so. Take a game like Ars Magica, where you play a troupe of characters. Are they not PCs simply because none of them in particular is your avatar? Of course not. The defining factor in whether something is a player character or an NPC is whether one of the players controls it. That the MAC or Drifter has some inbuilt programming does not make it any less player controlled, as it won't suddenly take off on its own or anything like that, it's actions require a player as impetus. After all, a commander could drive it directly by setting an extremely short series of waypoints, much like a player of the marines would drive their own model around, the only difference being whether the view is first-person or top-down.