Lerk was my favorite class in NS1, id hate to see it given spikes and degraded to vent camping and roosting. One of the biggest problems new users to the lerk seem to have is with the bitegun. They fly straight at the marines while biting, and get gunned down. New players to the lerk need to use spores, it is relatively easy to hide in the vents and spore the marines, just peeking in and out. I do not know of any other alien attack in ns1 that is as annoying as spores (as marine). Changing bite to a spike shotgun (or spikes) will just result in similar play from people, either flying straight at the marines to shotgun them, or sitting in a vent and spiking (and getting pistol whipped). I think part of encouraging people to use spores first could come from making it the slot1 attack. And to the person making a strategic comparison to tf2, the lerk fits the support role completely. A smart lerk can easily turn the tide of battles, staying back while providing umba support, or baiting the marines so a hidden skulk can get easy kills. Simply just sporing the marines from vent to vent can put a huge strain on the marine’s resources. The lerk is not all about flying in like a manic and biting down marines, it’s all about what he can do for his team.
Yeah I kinda assumed lerks don't get umbra because they gave it to the crag, although I would like lerks to retain a support ability similar to umbra, although perhaps a bit less powerful.
<!--quoteo(post=1795903:date=Aug 23 2010, 04:34 PM:name=samurai_jeff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (samurai_jeff @ Aug 23 2010, 04:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795903"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What's the difference between having a lerk "sit in a vent lobbing gas bombs at people" and roosting on a wall shooting spikes at people? The only difference is probably the rate of fire, and the damage type.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Roosting on a wall doesn't make you invincible by pressing S.
The idea of roosting is that if you simply stay in the same place all the time, the marines will get wise and shoot you. In a vent you can just run back for a bit then pop forward and fire a gas bomb, there isn't really anything the marine can do about it because the only weapon that works is grenades.
Chris you don't seem terribly upset by the removal of umbra from lerk, which strikes me as schizophrenic at best and yet again you refuse to even acknowledge my discussions.
The removal of umbra from lerk is far, far more damaging from a strategic "thinking mans" point of view. The lerk is now exactly half as useful in mid-late game since its only redeeming feature is spores. Spikes at this point in time would be even more suicidal when you consider the fact that you have to stand still because of marine upgrades. When will you learn that anyone with ears will be able to pinpoint the source of spikes and destroy it before the lerk can do any real damage!?
It must be some attempt by Charlie to try to encourage structure use which in my opinion just shows he wants static, spam gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=1796070:date=Aug 24 2010, 02:16 PM:name=Sublime)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sublime @ Aug 24 2010, 02:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1796070"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Chris you don't seem terribly upset by the removal of umbra from lerk, which strikes me as schizophrenic at best and yet again you refuse to even acknowledge my discussions.
The removal of umbra from lerk is far, far more damaging from a strategic "thinking mans" point of view. The lerk is now exactly half as useful in mid-late game since its only redeeming feature is spores. Spikes at this point in time would be even more suicidal when you consider the fact that you have to stand still because of marine upgrades. When will you learn that anyone with ears will be able to pinpoint the source of spikes and destroy it before the lerk can do any real damage!?
It must be some attempt by Charlie to try to encourage structure use which in my opinion just shows he wants static, spam gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not upset about anything, it's a small aspect of a game I probably won't like overmuch anyway because I don't like any game that much with a couple of exceptions.
However if you're wondering whether I think it's a good idea to remove all support options from the lerk, no. I think it's generally a good idea to give each alien class at least one support option, umbra was perhaps a bit overpowered because it could sort of make an attack group invincible, and I don't really think one shot from one alien should make that much difference, and I think it's much better used on the defense with the crag. I do however think lerks would benefit from some sort of support power, perhaps a long range heal spray which heals slower, or a cloud which boosts energy regen when standing in it, or even a lower powered version of umbra.
I'm also not panicking because it's entirely possible that a new support power is planned for the lerk already.
I'm also assuming they're removing motion tracking or completely changing how it works, because it's an amazingly terrible mechanic. There are far better options with modern technology, flashlights work better when you actually project them from the marine and don't make a point light follow the cursor, and you can always have a sort of thermal imaging upgrade which highlights aliens in your view very slightly, something more balanced than highlighting all aliens all the time with bright circles.
Yes, shooting marines constantly without moving would likely get you killed, which is where the leap from surface mechanic comes in. The new engine means maps can be far more complex with lots more hidey holes and clutter in tall rooms, combine that with the ability to leap/glide/fly from wall to wall, sniper spikes, stealth upgrades and roosting (which I assume makes you a bit harder to see) and you should be able to move from sniper nest to sniper nest and kill marines without them being able to find you and track you long enough to shoot you.
Motion tracking breaks so much of the alien gameplay that I took it for granted it wouldn't be in, especially as stealth has been mentioned as a mechanic they want for some classes.
Did anyone actually say umbra isn't going to be on the lerk?
I mean I know it's on the crag but does that necessarily mean it's gone from the lerk, if it is it'll make me a sad panda, I enjoyed being a support lerk, once everyone got too good for me to fight toe to toe it was all I could do effectively :'(.
<!--quoteo(post=1796079:date=Aug 24 2010, 03:00 PM:name=Delphic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Delphic @ Aug 24 2010, 03:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1796079"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Did anyone actually say umbra isn't going to be on the lerk?
I mean I know it's on the crag but does that necessarily mean it's gone from the lerk, if so, it'll make me a sad panda, I enjoyed being a support lerk, once everyone got too good for me to fight toe to toe it was all I could do effectively :'(.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The news post about the lerk earlier in the thread makes no mention of it, I can only assume it isn't on it.
Although it's entirely possible a similar ability will be the secondary fire for spores, as the article mentioned they wanted one.
Roosting sounds very stupid to be honest. Atleast in NS1, a standing alien is a dead alien also known as a sitting duck.
Umbra is actually a lot more tactical weapon that spores. Well shot umbra can save a good lerk. Sometimes when I don't bother dying and play at maximum risk I just umbra the marine and then challenge him. Makes it possible to kill even shotguns. Good lerks use it when they escape a battle aswell.
<!--quoteo(post=1796071:date=Aug 24 2010, 03:34 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Aug 24 2010, 03:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1796071"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not upset about anything, it's a small aspect of a game I probably won't like overmuch anyway because I don't like any game that much with a couple of exceptions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have no concept of balance and are obsessed with stealth. Stealth must have a counter or you get what we had in v3b6 early game with SCs - imagine Portugal vs North Korea. If you have maps complex enough to enable lerk roost to work as a stealth ability, you will have too many skulk ambush points and subsequently an imbalanced map in favour of aliens. I won't rise to your further attempts to derail the thread by taking you to pieces on MT; if you don't realise that it was balanced it wouldn't surprise me at all.
You simply don't think about your suggestions at all do you?
I agree with bite being better option and I also like the point Tane raised in that the NS1 lerk is interesting to play <i>against</i>.
I also like the fact that a lerk can be used as an offensive glass cannon as well as heavy support when circumstances dictate. If your game has 9 classes then its ok to have a 100% boring sit around class but NS has much fewer.
I was never a strong lerk, I would always play it like a fade and die when trying to emulate great early game lerks but genuinely listen to Sublime and Buggy, they're both some of the best lerks players ever.
Also, speaking of the fade, I hope to god they don't take my class away á la this. Sucks for you sub
The biting lerk was extremely fun and a great challenge to master, as the OP said. However, giving the Lerk bite does make it very similar to the Skulk. Yes the aerobatics are different, but the Marine is still dealing with an airborne nashing alien. Giving the Lerk a short range, low ROF weapon introduces a new gameplay dynamic that is not replicated by any other alien.
<!--quoteo(post=1796168:date=Aug 25 2010, 03:08 AM:name=Sublime)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sublime @ Aug 25 2010, 03:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1796168"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You have no concept of balance and are obsessed with stealth. Stealth must have a counter or you get what we had in v3b6 early game with SCs - imagine Portugal vs North Korea. If you have maps complex enough to enable lerk roost to work as a stealth ability, you will have too many skulk ambush points and subsequently an imbalanced map in favour of aliens. I won't rise to your further attempts to derail the thread by taking you to pieces on MT; if you don't realise that it was balanced it wouldn't surprise me at all.
You simply don't think about your suggestions at all do you?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's stealth as in 'I am hiding from you' and there's stealth as in 'I am invisible so I can walk up to you and punch you in the face without you knowing'.
One has a counter, one does not. Marines can and should have the ability to see people who are simply hiding by looking for them, however being invisible doesn't have a counter.
Hiding is a fairly integral part of any shooter, or more or less any game at all for that matter because the element of surprise is always valuable. A marine who is clever enough to outsmart a hiding alien will win, because hiding usually means you back into a corner. In the case of the lerk, if the marine is looking for it as soon as it comes into view, then the lerk won't have time to shoot the marine and will either have to run away or die, and it's possible that it won't be able to run away if the marine has both the reflexes to shoot fast and the brain to look in the right places.
Similarly, marines have a similar option to deal with ambushes, send a couple of marines into a room and keep a couple back out of sight to cover them, the ones in the room will probably attract any hiding aliens and the combined firepower of all the marines will likely kill the aliens, with minimal marine losses. Of course this presumes teamwork on the side of the marines but it can be done with even just two marines if one of them thinks to cover the other.
And then you can go further by having the aliens work together by sending a couple of their number to fight the marines who enter the room, but keep the rest back until the other marines come in and then ambush them when they think they're safe.
The wonderful thing about stealth and tactics in games is that, like most of the NS1 weapons, they are so effective that the main balance consideration is who is better at using them. Most of the prerequisites for using them are inherent in any team based game, however a little support from the level designer and a couple of useful mechanics can greatly widen their use.
<!--quoteo(post=1796179:date=Aug 24 2010, 08:58 PM:name=NS2HD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2HD @ Aug 24 2010, 08:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1796179"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The biting lerk was extremely fun and a great challenge to master, as the OP said. However, giving the Lerk bite does make it very similar to the Skulk. Yes the aerobatics are different, but the Marine is still dealing with an airborne nashing alien. Giving the Lerk a short range, low ROF weapon introduces a new gameplay dynamic that is not replicated by any other alien.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. We will just have to play a bit so we can see if it's any good or not.
Chris, all of your arguments are so disconnected from any actual knowledge of NS, it seems like you never even played the first game. Half of your ideas seem to be predicated on the idea that aliens will know a map well enough to find hiding places, and that marines won't be smart enough to check the established hiding places in a map. Unless there is a sudden unpredicted influx of NS2 mappers, and realistically even if there is, the maps that people play will be disproportionately maps that are released early that people like. Everyone will know these maps like the back of their hand. Look at Veil, Tanith, or Eclipse. These maps got played so often that EVERYONE know every vent system, every room, and the fastest way to get from any point A to point B. The idea of "hiding" on these maps or the maps that will replace them in NS2 is ridiculous.
Secondly, how could you even for a second believe that hard invisibility with no counter is a good idea? It's the antithesis of balance and would remove any amount of skill the game would otherwise require. "OH BUT MARINES COULD USE BAIT AND SWITCH TACTICS TO BEAT PERMA-INVIS ALIENS!!!!!" Tactics doesn't equal some ridiculous game of ambush one-upmanship. If aliens have an invisibility that marines can't possible see, then something like motion tracking isn't overpowered, it's absolutely required. There's no point in playing a shooter if one side can't be detected by the other, even if they're playing intelligently.
You aren't talking about strategy or tactics, you're talking about gimmicks. The scenarios you keep tossing out are so absurd and removed from anything that even resembles NS, I can't help but doubt whether you ever even played it. You've already said you don't even think you'll like NS2 much, so why don't you quite making ridiculous suggestions and derailing the thread. NS2 is meant to be the sequel to the first game, not something that uses similar art but plays completely differently. The game you're fantasizing about may exist somewhere, but I hope to God it isn't NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1796179:date=Aug 25 2010, 06:58 AM:name=NS2HD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2HD @ Aug 25 2010, 06:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1796179"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The biting lerk was extremely fun and a great challenge to master, as the OP said. However, giving the Lerk bite does make it very similar to the Skulk. Yes the aerobatics are different, but the Marine is still dealing with an airborne nashing alien. Giving the Lerk a short range, low ROF weapon introduces a new gameplay dynamic that is not replicated by any other alien.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is a bad idea and it has been explained why, basicly medpacks counter low rof but read the whole thread to grasp the idea.
<!--quoteo(post=1796193:date=Aug 25 2010, 08:48 AM:name=PILL)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PILL @ Aug 25 2010, 08:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1796193"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Chris, all of your arguments are so disconnected from any actual knowledge of NS, it seems like you never even played the first game. Half of your ideas seem to be predicated on the idea that aliens will know a map well enough to find hiding places, and that marines won't be smart enough to check the established hiding places in a map. Unless there is a sudden unpredicted influx of NS2 mappers, and realistically even if there is, the maps that people play will be disproportionately maps that are released early that people like. Everyone will know these maps like the back of their hand. Look at Veil, Tanith, or Eclipse. These maps got played so often that EVERYONE know every vent system, every room, and the fastest way to get from any point A to point B. The idea of "hiding" on these maps or the maps that will replace them in NS2 is ridiculous.
Secondly, how could you even for a second believe that hard invisibility with no counter is a good idea? It's the antithesis of balance and would remove any amount of skill the game would otherwise require. "OH BUT MARINES COULD USE BAIT AND SWITCH TACTICS TO BEAT PERMA-INVIS ALIENS!!!!!" Tactics doesn't equal some ridiculous game of ambush one-upmanship. If aliens have an invisibility that marines can't possible see, then something like motion tracking isn't overpowered, it's absolutely required. There's no point in playing a shooter if one side can't be detected by the other, even if they're playing intelligently.
You aren't talking about strategy or tactics, you're talking about gimmicks. The scenarios you keep tossing out are so absurd and removed from anything that even resembles NS, I can't help but doubt whether you ever even played it. You've already said you don't even think you'll like NS2 much, so why don't you quite making ridiculous suggestions and derailing the thread. NS2 is meant to be the sequel to the first game, not something that uses similar art but plays completely differently. The game you're fantasizing about may exist somewhere, but I hope to God it isn't NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Er, I didn't say invisibilty with no counter was a good idea, I said it was a bad idea, or at least used it as an example of why actual hiding is a much better. I said there's no counter to invisibility so why would I then go on to list methods of countering it? The counters are for simple hiding tactics, not cloaking devices.
And again, NS2 can do far more complex maps than NS1, a corridor with a bunch of alcoves in it is the simplest structure neccesary and it works because you have marines making a choice, either they run through it without looking and risk ambush, or check every single hole which is slower, and may invite attack from aliens who just wander in and see marines preoccupied with checking for hiding aliens.
The idea of established discrete hiding spots kinda goes out the window when maps can have the kind of geometry you've seen in the mapping forum and alpha. Instead it switches to all areas being somewhere an alien can potentially hide, and so it becomes a matter of being either generally observant, looking carefully around you, or being less observant/more focussed/faster.
Yes, finally you're starting to argue your points. You made an important distinction between b6 cloak and hiding and I apologise for the bad comparison.
However, you seem to have missed my other and perhaps more important discussion on hiding places in maps. If you fill a map full of narrow, cramped, hiding place dense short corridors, you are foolish. We've seen that in NS1 certain maps with these characteristics are heavily alien biased. What you will almost certainly succeed in doing is making the early marine game extremely difficult by requiring great reflexes as well as map knowledge. This will likely frustrate a lot of new players, which is exactly what I'm guessing you don't want considering your aversion to twitch.
Please don't come in here with the notion that medpacks don't have to drop out of the sky. It's in the alpha and they've said nothing about changing the marine commander (apart from the horrible builder bots). I see no reason why I should consider situations where this is not true.
Now to get this thread back on track with how this would affect your rooster spike monger lerk. Certainly, if you made the maps insanely complicated, the lerk could get off a few shots and move to another position. However, because of medpacks this type of gameplay will be nullified. Furthermore skulks would be incredibly effective; coupled with the 0 resource cost and - in your lerk scenario - much faster killing ability, lerks would be a diabolical waste of time in such maps anyway.
Not to mention the idea of being careful in hiding place dense maps is totally at odds with a sprint mechanism - but we shouldn't argue about that here.
I agree that filling a map full of tiny holes that marines can't see into until they're right on top of them and making skulks able to easily kill any marine that gets close enough would be a little stupid.
However I don't think that is the only possible outcome or implementation of a map with lots of hiding spots hiding spots should be visible from a reasonable distance if you're looking for them, such as hiding them in the ceiling where they are mostly effective because you aren't normally looking up, or making them shallow enough to prevent people from hiding too far in and thus making them visible from further away, or doing things like using grate fences to create a sort of visual clutter which makes it possible to see enemies, but hard to identify them as anything other than part of the background. There's a lot of ways to make a hiding place.
Having marines tank with medpacks seems a bit far fetched to be honest, if a marine is looking for a medpack then he isn't looking for lerks, and if commanders can just drop them straight onto marines constantly and effectively enough to actually make them invincible to all but the most powerful attacks, that's kinda broken don't you think? I mean that argument works against spores better than it does against spikes as spikes by neccesity would have to be more powerful than spores, and things like fade acid rockets don't do as much damage as a bite so surely they should be removed from use by the existence of medpacks. I know later on the comm just fills the floor with medpacks and ammo (something else I dislike as it happens) and that makes marines kinda resistant to anything short of having their face clawed off, but they have armor upgrades by then and usually jetpacks/ha both of which improve damage resistance by avoiding/soaking up damage.
Basically I just don't see medpack tanking as a concern, in the early game you can't exactly afford to spam them every time a lerk shoots a marine, and they shouldn't really be that effective anyway.
The advantage of the lerk doesn't come from being more powerful than the skulk, it comes from being more survivable. A lerk could scatter spikes at a couple of marines and injure both, then move or possibly not be seen at all if he has a good spot, assuming the comm isn't going to spend the cash to keep them healed every time that happens, a couple of volleys of those would kill them. Or if the lerk is closer he could hit one marine with all the spikes in a volley and kill him outright, as the spikes are said to have falloff and spread that means you can improve killing ability over range, so if you can stay hidden enough for a marine to get close to you (as you would with a skulk) then you should be able to kill them with similar effectiveness, although skulks are better suited to offensive movement, corner a skulk and it can rush you and bounce around, corner a lerk and it is a bit less suited to attacking and more suited to getting away. Also skulks can move around in concealment easier, while lerks have to fly/leap in order to move, so skulks again have a slight advantage for close quarters ambushes and fighting. Against single marines I would say lerks should be similar in performance to a skulk, loosing a volley of spikes into a marine at point blank should kill it pretty sharpish.
Against multiple marines they would have to play to their strengths, a skulk can keep dealing damage indefinitely once it gets close, a lerk should be limited to volleys by energy, so they have to keep at range and pick them off. Doing so effectively would be less dangerous than a skulk because once a skulk commits it has to kill everyone or die, but it would also be slower to kill anything compared to the skulk. There's also the point that the two are suited to different environments, NS2 is heavy on rooms rather than corridors, so in tall or otherwise large rooms, the lerk would have an advantage, whereas in tight corridors the skulk has an advantage, so the two should both stay useful if only for that reason. And finally the lerk really needs a support ability, which should also help keep it useful as it does in NS1.
The key point you're missing is that a single shot or a burst of shots from spikes is not a constant dot. It is difficult to med marines in spores because they are constant damage over time; you have to med when they get low enough to be 1 shotted. If you just shoot them and fly off to another hiding place once you're discovered, they get medded and it's just rinse and repeat. Your tactic is just what spores do already.
The other problem is that if you spike a marine and don't kill him then attempt to 'glide to another hiding spot' he'll be pretty much instantly alerted to your presence (if he has an ounce of spacial awareness). From here you simply cannot just 'poke your head out to send another volley' because the marine will be looking for you (if he hasn't found you already) and when he finds you his firepower will almost certainly beat yours. At least with spores you have a way of damaging him without having a direct line of sight. Remember if you can see him he can also see you, and marines will win in a ranged firefight.
Of course if there's other aliens distracting the marine then you could get away with this but as sublime said, spores do a much better job.
I never understood the support for spike. Like samurai_jeff says if you can shoot a marine with spike the marine can shoot you. Everyone remembers spamming their pistol at max firing rate and getting the tenth bullet into dumb lerks trying to spike a marine to death on public. The only way to deal damage effectively and not die is to fly around like crazy, which seems to be the real reason why people oppose bite and it's surely easier to make kills with bite while flying than spiking?
Basically stop shooting yourself in the foot because you don't want to learn to a movement skill
<!--quoteo(post=1796356:date=Aug 26 2010, 10:22 AM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Aug 26 2010, 10:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1796356"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically stop shooting yourself in the foot because you don't want to learn to a movement skill<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1796356:date=Aug 26 2010, 10:22 AM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Aug 26 2010, 10:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1796356"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I never understood the support for spike. Like samurai_jeff says if you can shoot a marine with spike the marine can shoot you. Everyone remembers spamming their pistol at max firing rate and getting the tenth bullet into dumb lerks trying to spike a marine to death on public. The only way to deal damage effectively and not die is to fly around like crazy, which seems to be the real reason why people oppose bite and it's surely easier to make kills with bite while flying than spiking?
Basically stop shooting yourself in the foot because you don't want to learn to a movement skill<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
Actually, it doesn't.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2010/02" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2010/02</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1795903:date=Aug 23 2010, 04:34 PM:name=samurai_jeff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (samurai_jeff @ Aug 23 2010, 04:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795903"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What's the difference between having a lerk "sit in a vent lobbing gas bombs at people" and roosting on a wall shooting spikes at people? The only difference is probably the rate of fire, and the damage type.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Roosting on a wall doesn't make you invincible by pressing S.
The idea of roosting is that if you simply stay in the same place all the time, the marines will get wise and shoot you. In a vent you can just run back for a bit then pop forward and fire a gas bomb, there isn't really anything the marine can do about it because the only weapon that works is grenades.
The removal of umbra from lerk is far, far more damaging from a strategic "thinking mans" point of view. The lerk is now exactly half as useful in mid-late game since its only redeeming feature is spores. Spikes at this point in time would be even more suicidal when you consider the fact that you have to stand still because of marine upgrades. When will you learn that anyone with ears will be able to pinpoint the source of spikes and destroy it before the lerk can do any real damage!?
It must be some attempt by Charlie to try to encourage structure use which in my opinion just shows he wants static, spam gameplay.
The removal of umbra from lerk is far, far more damaging from a strategic "thinking mans" point of view. The lerk is now exactly half as useful in mid-late game since its only redeeming feature is spores. Spikes at this point in time would be even more suicidal when you consider the fact that you have to stand still because of marine upgrades. When will you learn that anyone with ears will be able to pinpoint the source of spikes and destroy it before the lerk can do any real damage!?
It must be some attempt by Charlie to try to encourage structure use which in my opinion just shows he wants static, spam gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not upset about anything, it's a small aspect of a game I probably won't like overmuch anyway because I don't like any game that much with a couple of exceptions.
However if you're wondering whether I think it's a good idea to remove all support options from the lerk, no. I think it's generally a good idea to give each alien class at least one support option, umbra was perhaps a bit overpowered because it could sort of make an attack group invincible, and I don't really think one shot from one alien should make that much difference, and I think it's much better used on the defense with the crag. I do however think lerks would benefit from some sort of support power, perhaps a long range heal spray which heals slower, or a cloud which boosts energy regen when standing in it, or even a lower powered version of umbra.
I'm also not panicking because it's entirely possible that a new support power is planned for the lerk already.
I'm also assuming they're removing motion tracking or completely changing how it works, because it's an amazingly terrible mechanic. There are far better options with modern technology, flashlights work better when you actually project them from the marine and don't make a point light follow the cursor, and you can always have a sort of thermal imaging upgrade which highlights aliens in your view very slightly, something more balanced than highlighting all aliens all the time with bright circles.
Yes, shooting marines constantly without moving would likely get you killed, which is where the leap from surface mechanic comes in. The new engine means maps can be far more complex with lots more hidey holes and clutter in tall rooms, combine that with the ability to leap/glide/fly from wall to wall, sniper spikes, stealth upgrades and roosting (which I assume makes you a bit harder to see) and you should be able to move from sniper nest to sniper nest and kill marines without them being able to find you and track you long enough to shoot you.
Motion tracking breaks so much of the alien gameplay that I took it for granted it wouldn't be in, especially as stealth has been mentioned as a mechanic they want for some classes.
I mean I know it's on the crag but does that necessarily mean it's gone from the lerk, if it is it'll make me a sad panda, I enjoyed being a support lerk, once everyone got too good for me to fight toe to toe it was all I could do effectively :'(.
I mean I know it's on the crag but does that necessarily mean it's gone from the lerk, if so, it'll make me a sad panda, I enjoyed being a support lerk, once everyone got too good for me to fight toe to toe it was all I could do effectively :'(.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The news post about the lerk earlier in the thread makes no mention of it, I can only assume it isn't on it.
Although it's entirely possible a similar ability will be the secondary fire for spores, as the article mentioned they wanted one.
Although that might come too early in the game, well I suppose it could be an unlock with no secondary fire to begin with, or a different one.
Umbra is actually a lot more tactical weapon that spores. Well shot umbra can save a good lerk. Sometimes when I don't bother dying and play at maximum risk I just umbra the marine and then challenge him. Makes it possible to kill even shotguns. Good lerks use it when they escape a battle aswell.
-1 for bite!
-1 for bite!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 both. I loved spikes and I love bite.
Yeah. Let's do what this guy suggests!
You simply don't think about your suggestions at all do you?
I also like the fact that a lerk can be used as an offensive glass cannon as well as heavy support when circumstances dictate. If your game has 9 classes then its ok to have a 100% boring sit around class but NS has much fewer.
I was never a strong lerk, I would always play it like a fade and die when trying to emulate great early game lerks but genuinely listen to Sublime and Buggy, they're both some of the best lerks players ever.
Also, speaking of the fade, I hope to god they don't take my class away á la this. Sucks for you sub
Gorge: Babblers (instead of Bile Bomb)
Lerk: Bite, Spike, <!--coloro:#008000--><span style="color:#008000"><!--/coloro-->Green corrosive fart<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Orange protective fart<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Fade: Bilbomb (instead of Metabolize)
Onos: Primal Scream and Paralyze (instead of Stomp)
You simply don't think about your suggestions at all do you?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's stealth as in 'I am hiding from you' and there's stealth as in 'I am invisible so I can walk up to you and punch you in the face without you knowing'.
One has a counter, one does not. Marines can and should have the ability to see people who are simply hiding by looking for them, however being invisible doesn't have a counter.
Hiding is a fairly integral part of any shooter, or more or less any game at all for that matter because the element of surprise is always valuable. A marine who is clever enough to outsmart a hiding alien will win, because hiding usually means you back into a corner. In the case of the lerk, if the marine is looking for it as soon as it comes into view, then the lerk won't have time to shoot the marine and will either have to run away or die, and it's possible that it won't be able to run away if the marine has both the reflexes to shoot fast and the brain to look in the right places.
Similarly, marines have a similar option to deal with ambushes, send a couple of marines into a room and keep a couple back out of sight to cover them, the ones in the room will probably attract any hiding aliens and the combined firepower of all the marines will likely kill the aliens, with minimal marine losses. Of course this presumes teamwork on the side of the marines but it can be done with even just two marines if one of them thinks to cover the other.
And then you can go further by having the aliens work together by sending a couple of their number to fight the marines who enter the room, but keep the rest back until the other marines come in and then ambush them when they think they're safe.
The wonderful thing about stealth and tactics in games is that, like most of the NS1 weapons, they are so effective that the main balance consideration is who is better at using them. Most of the prerequisites for using them are inherent in any team based game, however a little support from the level designer and a couple of useful mechanics can greatly widen their use.
Exactly. We will just have to play a bit so we can see if it's any good or not.
Secondly, how could you even for a second believe that hard invisibility with no counter is a good idea? It's the antithesis of balance and would remove any amount of skill the game would otherwise require. "OH BUT MARINES COULD USE BAIT AND SWITCH TACTICS TO BEAT PERMA-INVIS ALIENS!!!!!" Tactics doesn't equal some ridiculous game of ambush one-upmanship. If aliens have an invisibility that marines can't possible see, then something like motion tracking isn't overpowered, it's absolutely required. There's no point in playing a shooter if one side can't be detected by the other, even if they're playing intelligently.
You aren't talking about strategy or tactics, you're talking about gimmicks. The scenarios you keep tossing out are so absurd and removed from anything that even resembles NS, I can't help but doubt whether you ever even played it. You've already said you don't even think you'll like NS2 much, so why don't you quite making ridiculous suggestions and derailing the thread. NS2 is meant to be the sequel to the first game, not something that uses similar art but plays completely differently. The game you're fantasizing about may exist somewhere, but I hope to God it isn't NS2.
This is a bad idea and it has been explained why, basicly medpacks counter low rof but read the whole thread to grasp the idea.
Seriously I've had it with the nonsense in this thread. I'm sure glad none of you are game designers.
Secondly, how could you even for a second believe that hard invisibility with no counter is a good idea? It's the antithesis of balance and would remove any amount of skill the game would otherwise require. "OH BUT MARINES COULD USE BAIT AND SWITCH TACTICS TO BEAT PERMA-INVIS ALIENS!!!!!" Tactics doesn't equal some ridiculous game of ambush one-upmanship. If aliens have an invisibility that marines can't possible see, then something like motion tracking isn't overpowered, it's absolutely required. There's no point in playing a shooter if one side can't be detected by the other, even if they're playing intelligently.
You aren't talking about strategy or tactics, you're talking about gimmicks. The scenarios you keep tossing out are so absurd and removed from anything that even resembles NS, I can't help but doubt whether you ever even played it. You've already said you don't even think you'll like NS2 much, so why don't you quite making ridiculous suggestions and derailing the thread. NS2 is meant to be the sequel to the first game, not something that uses similar art but plays completely differently. The game you're fantasizing about may exist somewhere, but I hope to God it isn't NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Er, I didn't say invisibilty with no counter was a good idea, I said it was a bad idea, or at least used it as an example of why actual hiding is a much better. I said there's no counter to invisibility so why would I then go on to list methods of countering it? The counters are for simple hiding tactics, not cloaking devices.
And again, NS2 can do far more complex maps than NS1, a corridor with a bunch of alcoves in it is the simplest structure neccesary and it works because you have marines making a choice, either they run through it without looking and risk ambush, or check every single hole which is slower, and may invite attack from aliens who just wander in and see marines preoccupied with checking for hiding aliens.
The idea of established discrete hiding spots kinda goes out the window when maps can have the kind of geometry you've seen in the mapping forum and alpha. Instead it switches to all areas being somewhere an alien can potentially hide, and so it becomes a matter of being either generally observant, looking carefully around you, or being less observant/more focussed/faster.
However, you seem to have missed my other and perhaps more important discussion on hiding places in maps. If you fill a map full of narrow, cramped, hiding place dense short corridors, you are foolish. We've seen that in NS1 certain maps with these characteristics are heavily alien biased. What you will almost certainly succeed in doing is making the early marine game extremely difficult by requiring great reflexes as well as map knowledge. This will likely frustrate a lot of new players, which is exactly what I'm guessing you don't want considering your aversion to twitch.
Please don't come in here with the notion that medpacks don't have to drop out of the sky. It's in the alpha and they've said nothing about changing the marine commander (apart from the horrible builder bots). I see no reason why I should consider situations where this is not true.
Now to get this thread back on track with how this would affect your rooster spike monger lerk. Certainly, if you made the maps insanely complicated, the lerk could get off a few shots and move to another position. However, because of medpacks this type of gameplay will be nullified. Furthermore skulks would be incredibly effective; coupled with the 0 resource cost and - in your lerk scenario - much faster killing ability, lerks would be a diabolical waste of time in such maps anyway.
Not to mention the idea of being careful in hiding place dense maps is totally at odds with a sprint mechanism - but we shouldn't argue about that here.
However I don't think that is the only possible outcome or implementation of a map with lots of hiding spots hiding spots should be visible from a reasonable distance if you're looking for them, such as hiding them in the ceiling where they are mostly effective because you aren't normally looking up, or making them shallow enough to prevent people from hiding too far in and thus making them visible from further away, or doing things like using grate fences to create a sort of visual clutter which makes it possible to see enemies, but hard to identify them as anything other than part of the background. There's a lot of ways to make a hiding place.
Having marines tank with medpacks seems a bit far fetched to be honest, if a marine is looking for a medpack then he isn't looking for lerks, and if commanders can just drop them straight onto marines constantly and effectively enough to actually make them invincible to all but the most powerful attacks, that's kinda broken don't you think? I mean that argument works against spores better than it does against spikes as spikes by neccesity would have to be more powerful than spores, and things like fade acid rockets don't do as much damage as a bite so surely they should be removed from use by the existence of medpacks. I know later on the comm just fills the floor with medpacks and ammo (something else I dislike as it happens) and that makes marines kinda resistant to anything short of having their face clawed off, but they have armor upgrades by then and usually jetpacks/ha both of which improve damage resistance by avoiding/soaking up damage.
Basically I just don't see medpack tanking as a concern, in the early game you can't exactly afford to spam them every time a lerk shoots a marine, and they shouldn't really be that effective anyway.
The advantage of the lerk doesn't come from being more powerful than the skulk, it comes from being more survivable. A lerk could scatter spikes at a couple of marines and injure both, then move or possibly not be seen at all if he has a good spot, assuming the comm isn't going to spend the cash to keep them healed every time that happens, a couple of volleys of those would kill them. Or if the lerk is closer he could hit one marine with all the spikes in a volley and kill him outright, as the spikes are said to have falloff and spread that means you can improve killing ability over range, so if you can stay hidden enough for a marine to get close to you (as you would with a skulk) then you should be able to kill them with similar effectiveness, although skulks are better suited to offensive movement, corner a skulk and it can rush you and bounce around, corner a lerk and it is a bit less suited to attacking and more suited to getting away. Also skulks can move around in concealment easier, while lerks have to fly/leap in order to move, so skulks again have a slight advantage for close quarters ambushes and fighting. Against single marines I would say lerks should be similar in performance to a skulk, loosing a volley of spikes into a marine at point blank should kill it pretty sharpish.
Against multiple marines they would have to play to their strengths, a skulk can keep dealing damage indefinitely once it gets close, a lerk should be limited to volleys by energy, so they have to keep at range and pick them off. Doing so effectively would be less dangerous than a skulk because once a skulk commits it has to kill everyone or die, but it would also be slower to kill anything compared to the skulk. There's also the point that the two are suited to different environments, NS2 is heavy on rooms rather than corridors, so in tall or otherwise large rooms, the lerk would have an advantage, whereas in tight corridors the skulk has an advantage, so the two should both stay useful if only for that reason. And finally the lerk really needs a support ability, which should also help keep it useful as it does in NS1.
Of course if there's other aliens distracting the marine then you could get away with this but as sublime said, spores do a much better job.
Basically stop shooting yourself in the foot because you don't want to learn to a movement skill
/Thread
Basically stop shooting yourself in the foot because you don't want to learn to a movement skill<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.