Thinking about this situation from the opposite direction, the ONLY way the devs can make the game accessible to people that preorder today, without violating their previous offer of "alpha" only for the special-edition-preorders, is to call build 155+ the "beta <u>phase</u>" (as opposed to THE beta BUILD).
Therefore forget the word "Beta" and just realize it's not about reaching the milestone of "Beta build" as much as getting around the legalities of getting future <u>versions</u> into the hands of people that preorder the "non-special" edition today (or what, should they be forced to wait years to play NS2 for the first time?).
And like i said earlier, then <u>maybe</u> by doing so this will permit NS2 to be listed in the steam store. And even if that's still not possible, this move will stop the situation where people may be refraining from preordering the non-standard edition (via paypal) for the reason that they can't actually play it yet, until some undefined point in time is reached.
So to summarize:
1. More money. 2. More people in online servers, which leads to (4) and (5). 3. Possibly now NS2 will meet the requirements to be sold in the steam store? Which leads to (1) and (2). 4. More bug reports. 5. Community growth.
<!--quoteo(post=1806343:date=Nov 18 2010, 03:51 PM:name=Norton)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Norton @ Nov 18 2010, 03:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806343"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't really understand what has changed. Alpha started as an unplayable feature incomplete lagfest and thats exactly what it is now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^this, to this day i have never been able to play a single game yet (and for the record it's not my PC, i'm capable of running all the latest games on full graphics with good fps, no lag whatsoever.)... every time i try to play it's a major lagfest, input lag, stuttering, you name it... unless you guys were working on some secret patch that will magically fix most of the problems and make the game playable i don't see how NS2 is ready for beta...
<!--quoteo(post=1806343:date=Nov 18 2010, 09:51 PM:name=Norton)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Norton @ Nov 18 2010, 09:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806343"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't really understand what has changed. Alpha started as an unplayable feature incomplete lagfest and thats exactly what it is now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cry baby cry!!! If UWE needs money, then it's perfect. If they know that the alpha could last longer, and then the beta pre-orders are long delayed, it is perfect. If both reasons are true, the better it is.
Some people still say that this alpha is unplayable, but I don't have a good computer, my Intertube connection sucks, and I can play it online. Of course the fps I get is bad, but I can play it. So, stop crying and wait for tomorrow update, then cry if there is something to.
I want to be happy, but actually I'm just concerned. If UWE needs the money to continue it's ok, although highly worrying. Other than that, I can't think of a single reason to label NS2 "Beta" right now.
Is it only I who get more lag in this build? Not to mention crashes.
Seriously, when flying around as a lerk now, I can hardly exit a room. Or when playing as skulk with marines teleporting around I only kill them when I am lucky enough to have them tele into my mouth (ofc they have a hard time killing me as skulks like to tele aswell).
Also, what is up with alot of maps suddenly missing textures? And why do the vent on that non tram map have a vent that you can fly out of? Sure it was fun lerking around ontop of the map, and I <i>could</i> die by nades from ppl with sound systems that pinpoint my pos somehow, but it seems like a very grave glitch if it is left in.
So when i hear the "beta" i ask myself....WHAT ARE THE SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS?
I know it's not what they originally thought it would be so i would assume that's the new requirements would read like this (assuming it it is in there eyes enjoyable experience.
CPU: Enough cores to blot out the sun RAM: You can't get that much VIDEO: The card will be available in 5 years
But you never know, maybe the testers realized they where testing on nuclear powered machines and toned it back to what is realistically feasible for the masses or max replaced one of ";" with one of these ":" and now all is blissful.
PrefixÉirinn go BráchJoin Date: 2006-12-31Member: 59353Members, Constellation
I just heard the news and I'm glad to see there's already a topic on the subject.
No way in hell is this game a beta, please, please, please, don't do this UWE you will ruin public perception of the game. The only advantage of going beta is that you'll have more testers and maybe some publicity.
Firstly you have enough alpha testers, more testers ain't going to help because the game isn't playable yet. Secondly, any good publicity from this move will be completely negated when you put it out like this.
In my opinion you should keep it in alpha until you have finished most of the optimizations, make it playable with proper netcode etc. Use beta for balancing and large hardware testing not for publicity.
This is single handedly the biggest mistake you could make.
<!--quoteo(post=1806396:date=Nov 18 2010, 05:53 PM:name=saltybp53)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (saltybp53 @ Nov 18 2010, 05:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806396"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Flayra needs to post on this thread or hell will blow over.
Theres something labeled "Server Optimization" over on the pivotal tracker page. Its not much, but that tells us something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There are going to be optimization tickets on the tracker from now until release, but I doubt any one of them will ever be a magic cure-all.
<!--quoteo(post=1806402:date=Nov 18 2010, 03:07 PM:name=rutix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rutix @ Nov 18 2010, 03:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806402"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Although i trust UWE in their decision I wish they did some statement on why they started the beta so suddenly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agree.
But for the obvious, programmers,composers,graphics artist and the other 20 specialist needed to build a game aren't cheap. They have degrees and lunches to pay for.
I'm really surprised by this too. I would have thought that they would have gotten the game stable in alpha before moving on to beta.
This is gonna be a wild ride to see how this goes. Since they're letting in the first 10k people who pre-order, there may end up being a lot of angry people here tomorrow (well, if the next patch actually gets released tomorrow that is).
UWE, I love you to death, but I sure hope you guys know what you are doing.
<!--quoteo(post=1806277:date=Nov 18 2010, 03:12 PM:name=w0dk4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (w0dk4 @ Nov 18 2010, 03:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806277"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have a feeling that they are closely running out of money, hence the need to attract more preorders.. if this means that we can have a longer beta phase where the game can be properly polished, then Im all for it.
From a traditional game development point of view I gotta agree though, I dont think NS2 is ready for beta at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The core mechanics of the game are still very rough. The netcode is still far from average, movement still feels very basic, staring at a wall in LAN junction gives me 30-40fps (on a quad-core, HD4850) and the memory consumption is insane.
Notice how the video seemed to running at a low fps? I can't help but wonder if that wasn't just the encoding...
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
All opinions here are based on build 154... What if they actually have fixed the issues in the internal test version. It's not certain we are actually getting the latest version to play around with you know...
Useless thread is useless unless we get something more official <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/biggrin.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<!--quoteo(post=1806417:date=Nov 18 2010, 06:47 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Nov 18 2010, 06:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806417"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All opinions here are based on build 154... What if they actually have fixed the issues in the internal test version. It's not certain we are actually getting the latest version to play around with you know...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> While it's possible they have made sweeping changes with the Fix self shadowing artifacts and Server performance since Tuesday, I don't find it that likely, especially since a lot of these issues have dogged them for the past several months.
<!--quoteo(post=1806417:date=Nov 19 2010, 01:47 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Nov 19 2010, 01:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806417"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All opinions here are based on build 154... What if they actually have fixed the issues in the internal test version. It's not certain we are actually getting the latest version to play around with you know...
Useless thread is useless unless we get something more official <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/biggrin.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you refering to the magic build that was supposed to hit us in Fall 09?
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2010
"since Tuesday" meaning we received build 154 when it was finished. Hehe I'm just curious as to what has been done to... ehm...
Beta 001?
<!--quoteo(post=1806424:date=Nov 18 2010, 11:55 PM:name=Vanillamarine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vanillamarine @ Nov 18 2010, 11:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806424"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you refering to the magic build that was supposed to hit us in Fall 09?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
PlasmaJoin Date: 2003-04-26Member: 15855Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
I don't think they could have fixed the performance issues in a few days, and I would want to confirm my alpha players could actually play the game without lag first before feeling confident it was lag free so that beta was an option.
<!--quoteo(post=1806422:date=Nov 19 2010, 12:53 AM:name=Plasma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Plasma @ Nov 19 2010, 12:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806422"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would so be in support of a beta if the game were playable, unfortunately its not - there is too much lag right now for basic gameplay.
This may really hurt sales and general buzz about the game, <b>and I don't feel confident telling a friend to buy it yet because its not ready</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Same here, I have friends interested in ns2, but I'm not gonna recommend the game for now due to this issues.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1806429:date=Nov 19 2010, 12:01 AM:name=Plasma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Plasma @ Nov 19 2010, 12:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806429"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and I would want to confirm my alpha players could actually play the game without lag first before feeling confident it was lag free so that beta was an option.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Point made and taken! It is in the end a pretty odd decision, which could either blow up in their faces (new pre-orders expecting a playable game) or it could indeed be fixed. But without testing it on a larger "alpha" scale, it is a risky step...
Point is, we canae know, what has not been said yet...
<!--quoteo(post=1806428:date=Nov 19 2010, 12:01 AM:name=NS2HD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2HD @ Nov 19 2010, 12:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't underestimate how fast they are working on this guys. I get the feeling they are moving into a whole new gear, the Beta is going to be good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would like to believe that, but considering the twitter posts such as "We have made major improvements to fps!" only to download 154 and see not that much difference, I highly doubt it. There is no doubt that it did improve, but not massively enough to warrant that kind of language.
Considering how the performance has been taking small steps every release, I can't see why there would suddenly be a 'huge' change this time round a few days after 154.
McGlaspiewww.team156.comJoin Date: 2010-07-26Member: 73044Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1806428:date=Nov 18 2010, 08:01 PM:name=NS2HD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2HD @ Nov 18 2010, 08:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't underestimate how fast they are working on this guys. I get the feeling they are moving into a whole new gear, the Beta is going to be good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I <b>sincerely</b> hope you're right NS2HD. I truly do. You have to admit though, all signs (that the community can see) points to "Not quite yet". The coming Beta has me more concerned about UWE's finances. If they run out of cash, the game is hosed. Unless by some good graces or their own determination, it is worked on in their own personal time, etc. God I hope I'm wrong! I really <i><b><u>really</u></b></i> want UWE to succeed.
On a more optimistic note, it's worth noting the recent task that's now delivered on the progress page: "Delivered: Server Performance"
I'm personally confident about this decission. I saw big industry games in beta state with a worse playable-state than NS2 ( in alpha ) before. If people don't understand what's a closed-beta, I don't care, I'm happy for UWE they've reached this millestone and keep up the good work.
Comments
Therefore forget the word "Beta" and just realize it's not about reaching the milestone of "Beta build" as much as getting around the legalities of getting future <u>versions</u> into the hands of people that preorder the "non-special" edition today (or what, should they be forced to wait years to play NS2 for the first time?).
And like i said earlier, then <u>maybe</u> by doing so this will permit NS2 to be listed in the steam store. And even if that's still not possible, this move will stop the situation where people may be refraining from preordering the non-standard edition (via paypal) for the reason that they can't actually play it yet, until some undefined point in time is reached.
So to summarize:
1. More money.
2. More people in online servers, which leads to (4) and (5).
3. Possibly now NS2 will meet the requirements to be sold in the steam store? Which leads to (1) and (2).
4. More bug reports.
5. Community growth.
^this, to this day i have never been able to play a single game yet (and for the record it's not my PC, i'm capable of running all the latest games on full graphics with good fps, no lag whatsoever.)... every time i try to play it's a major lagfest, input lag, stuttering, you name it... unless you guys were working on some secret patch that will magically fix most of the problems and make the game playable i don't see how NS2 is ready for beta...
X100^100
The move will be even more likely to fail if it's second guessed by the community.
Personally, once I see the lag issue fixed, i'll happily buy another special addition licence.
If UWE needs money, then it's perfect.
If they know that the alpha could last longer, and then the beta pre-orders are long delayed, it is perfect.
If both reasons are true, the better it is.
Some people still say that this alpha is unplayable, but I don't have a good computer, my Intertube connection sucks, and I can play it online. Of course the fps I get is bad, but I can play it. So, stop crying and wait for tomorrow update, then cry if there is something to.
If UWE needs the money to continue it's ok, although highly worrying.
Other than that, I can't think of a single reason to label NS2 "Beta" right now.
Seriously, when flying around as a lerk now, I can hardly exit a room. Or when playing as skulk with marines teleporting around I only kill them when I am lucky enough to have them tele into my mouth (ofc they have a hard time killing me as skulks like to tele aswell).
Also, what is up with alot of maps suddenly missing textures? And why do the vent on that non tram map have a vent that you can fly out of? Sure it was fun lerking around ontop of the map, and I <i>could</i> die by nades from ppl with sound systems that pinpoint my pos somehow, but it seems like a very grave glitch if it is left in.
I know it's not what they originally thought it would be so i would assume that's the new requirements would read like this (assuming it it is in there eyes enjoyable experience.
CPU: Enough cores to blot out the sun
RAM: You can't get that much
VIDEO: The card will be available in 5 years
But you never know, maybe the testers realized they where testing on nuclear powered machines and toned it back to what is realistically feasible for the masses or max replaced one of ";" with one of these ":" and now all is blissful.
Theres something labeled "Server Optimization" over on the pivotal tracker page. Its not much, but that tells us something.
No way in hell is this game a beta, please, please, please, don't do this UWE you will ruin public perception of the game. The only advantage of going beta is that you'll have more testers and maybe some publicity.
Firstly you have enough alpha testers, more testers ain't going to help because the game isn't playable yet. Secondly, any good publicity from this move will be completely negated when you put it out like this.
In my opinion you should keep it in alpha until you have finished most of the optimizations, make it playable with proper netcode etc. Use beta for balancing and large hardware testing not for publicity.
This is single handedly the biggest mistake you could make.
Theres something labeled "Server Optimization" over on the pivotal tracker page. Its not much, but that tells us something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are going to be optimization tickets on the tracker from now until release, but I doubt any one of them will ever be a magic cure-all.
Agree.
But for the obvious, programmers,composers,graphics artist and the other 20 specialist needed to build a game aren't cheap. They have degrees and lunches to pay for.
This is gonna be a wild ride to see how this goes. Since they're letting in the first 10k people who pre-order, there may end up being a lot of angry people here tomorrow (well, if the next patch actually gets released tomorrow that is).
UWE, I love you to death, but I sure hope you guys know what you are doing.
From a traditional game development point of view I gotta agree though, I dont think NS2 is ready for beta at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ditto
The core mechanics of the game are still very rough. The netcode is still far from average, movement still feels very basic, staring at a wall in LAN junction gives me 30-40fps (on a quad-core, HD4850) and the memory consumption is insane.
Notice how the video seemed to running at a low fps? I can't help but wonder if that wasn't just the encoding...
Useless thread is useless unless we get something more official <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/biggrin.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
This may really hurt sales and general buzz about the game, and I don't feel confident telling a friend to buy it yet because its not ready.
While it's possible they have made sweeping changes with the Fix self shadowing artifacts and Server performance since Tuesday, I don't find it that likely, especially since a lot of these issues have dogged them for the past several months.
Useless thread is useless unless we get something more official <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/biggrin.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you refering to the magic build that was supposed to hit us in Fall 09?
Beta 001?
<!--quoteo(post=1806424:date=Nov 18 2010, 11:55 PM:name=Vanillamarine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vanillamarine @ Nov 18 2010, 11:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806424"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you refering to the magic build that was supposed to hit us in Fall 09?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gah, my trickery has been countered!
This may really hurt sales and general buzz about the game, <b>and I don't feel confident telling a friend to buy it yet because its not ready</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Same here, I have friends interested in ns2, but I'm not gonna recommend the game for now due to this issues.
Point made and taken! It is in the end a pretty odd decision, which could either blow up in their faces (new pre-orders expecting a playable game) or it could indeed be fixed. But without testing it on a larger "alpha" scale, it is a risky step...
Point is, we canae know, what has not been said yet...
That wasn't the smoothest or most stable thing ever.
I would like to believe that, but considering the twitter posts such as "We have made major improvements to fps!" only to download 154 and see not that much difference, I highly doubt it. There is no doubt that it did improve, but not massively enough to warrant that kind of language.
Considering how the performance has been taking small steps every release, I can't see why there would suddenly be a 'huge' change this time round a few days after 154.
Not complaining just observing.
On a more optimistic note, it's worth noting the recent task that's now delivered on the progress page:
"Delivered: Server Performance"