Balance?
wlibaers
Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8685Members
Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8685Members
<div class="IPBDescription">related to team size (long)</div> Well, there are a lot of posts here about how one side is better than the other, and should be nerfed. And it's always a different side. Some see that as a sign the game is balanced. Almost, but the situation matters a lot.
In the beginning of the match, aliens tend to have the initiative. There should be only one, or max two builders at that point, so all the others can do is attack, and they don't lose anything by dying. The marines need to stick together and build. Often they complain about skuls rushing. Of course they rush! It's the only sensible thing to do. Marines are in the defensive, but if they're moderately good (some people cover the builders) they'll survive. So tha aliens may have the initiative, but it doesn't make them win.
But there definitely is a team size issue, even if they're equal in size. I'll summarize first:
small teams: aliens win
medium teams: marines win
large teams: aliens win
The limiting factor, for the marines, is the comander. For a small team, one guy who can't shoot or build is a big loss. If you're alone as a marine on the server, you're lost. Even with a few players, it's still a disadvantage. You need a group of marines to survive, which means you're stuck fighting for one position.
For slightly bigger teams, things look better for the marines. The commander can have more than one group, he can send recon teams out while still having some builders. And aliens aren't everwhere on the map. Aliens have less coordination, you can occasionally surprise one, even a gorge, big win.
Big teams: commander gets overwhelmed, doesn't respond to anything, marine groups that should be perfectly capable of handling most things get ignored and slaughtered. And there are enough aliens that even without centralized command they can count on support nearby.
I'm not putting any numbers on it, because it obviously depends on how good the commander is.
I'm pretty bad at it (for those who had to suffer a commander named WL: sorry guys). I'm good as a marine, almost as good as alien, but commander... I'll leave that seat for others.
The problem? Micromanagement, and the commander isn't really part of the team. I'm on a pretty slow computer, that may cause trouble too. The map is slow to move around, the minimap doesn't show much detail, panels get in the way. There's no good view of the big picture. It's hard to identify things on the map (esp. at 640*480).
My proposal: get rid of the minimap, group those build panels in a sidebar (whole side of the screen, not a square bite out of the screen). Seen those overview top-down maps in the forum? That's how I want that interface to look. One view, whole map at once, no scrolling needed, and represent buildings as icons (or even just a one- or two-letter code). Allow a zoom in function to get to the current detail view for placing buildings, but allow most orders or equipment from the big map. Big red flashing signs at stuff that's being attacked.
Second, give more comms to marines. They're on the ground, they often know better than me what they need, and they tell me so, then I waste a minute searching for the guy who needed it, and by that time they're dead. And I don't mean just ammo or health. Give the marines a build menu. Let them ask for a turret factory to be built at their position, and let me jump to it quickly. Without that sort of help, it's hard to manage a two-front battle (and if the aliens are any good, they'll push for a three-front battle).
Also, less micromanagement. We have an ammo factory, why not a medpack factory so marines can heal themselves in a base. It's OK if they need support at a forward position, but not in main base.
And give marines a better map. Show your own position, heading, and own buildings. And show attacks. A marine should not get his own orders menu, but he would definitely benefit from a better picture of the situation. The commander shouldn't have to tell marines a resource point around the corner is under attack, they should see it themselves. An individual marine is physically handicapped compared to aliens, but he also is nearly blind to the tactical situation. Let those guys see the weapons/health/armor of their friends and nearby buildings. Let them know where they are on the map!
As an RTS, NS seems more similar to Starcraft than Total Annihilation. There is the different races approach (inherently difficult to balance, much harder than, e.g. marines vs. marines), and there is the dreaded micromanagement.
In Total Annihilation, I could use the waypoint system to automate the whole battle, with very little need to focus on individuals. Automated repair, build sequences, recon patrols... In Starcraft, I had to order individual units to use their 'magical' attacks. I prefer Total Annihilation.
Also, mostly unrelated: aren't the HMG ans shotgun too similar?
LMG: light weapon, good aim
Pistol: light weapon, good aim
Shotgun: heavy weapon, huge spread
HMG: heavy weapon, huge spread
If I may make a suggestion, make HMG slightly weaker than shotgun, but more accurate. That way, there is a tactical decision: take the risk to get close and do big damage, or stay at a distance but with a bit less power.
In the beginning of the match, aliens tend to have the initiative. There should be only one, or max two builders at that point, so all the others can do is attack, and they don't lose anything by dying. The marines need to stick together and build. Often they complain about skuls rushing. Of course they rush! It's the only sensible thing to do. Marines are in the defensive, but if they're moderately good (some people cover the builders) they'll survive. So tha aliens may have the initiative, but it doesn't make them win.
But there definitely is a team size issue, even if they're equal in size. I'll summarize first:
small teams: aliens win
medium teams: marines win
large teams: aliens win
The limiting factor, for the marines, is the comander. For a small team, one guy who can't shoot or build is a big loss. If you're alone as a marine on the server, you're lost. Even with a few players, it's still a disadvantage. You need a group of marines to survive, which means you're stuck fighting for one position.
For slightly bigger teams, things look better for the marines. The commander can have more than one group, he can send recon teams out while still having some builders. And aliens aren't everwhere on the map. Aliens have less coordination, you can occasionally surprise one, even a gorge, big win.
Big teams: commander gets overwhelmed, doesn't respond to anything, marine groups that should be perfectly capable of handling most things get ignored and slaughtered. And there are enough aliens that even without centralized command they can count on support nearby.
I'm not putting any numbers on it, because it obviously depends on how good the commander is.
I'm pretty bad at it (for those who had to suffer a commander named WL: sorry guys). I'm good as a marine, almost as good as alien, but commander... I'll leave that seat for others.
The problem? Micromanagement, and the commander isn't really part of the team. I'm on a pretty slow computer, that may cause trouble too. The map is slow to move around, the minimap doesn't show much detail, panels get in the way. There's no good view of the big picture. It's hard to identify things on the map (esp. at 640*480).
My proposal: get rid of the minimap, group those build panels in a sidebar (whole side of the screen, not a square bite out of the screen). Seen those overview top-down maps in the forum? That's how I want that interface to look. One view, whole map at once, no scrolling needed, and represent buildings as icons (or even just a one- or two-letter code). Allow a zoom in function to get to the current detail view for placing buildings, but allow most orders or equipment from the big map. Big red flashing signs at stuff that's being attacked.
Second, give more comms to marines. They're on the ground, they often know better than me what they need, and they tell me so, then I waste a minute searching for the guy who needed it, and by that time they're dead. And I don't mean just ammo or health. Give the marines a build menu. Let them ask for a turret factory to be built at their position, and let me jump to it quickly. Without that sort of help, it's hard to manage a two-front battle (and if the aliens are any good, they'll push for a three-front battle).
Also, less micromanagement. We have an ammo factory, why not a medpack factory so marines can heal themselves in a base. It's OK if they need support at a forward position, but not in main base.
And give marines a better map. Show your own position, heading, and own buildings. And show attacks. A marine should not get his own orders menu, but he would definitely benefit from a better picture of the situation. The commander shouldn't have to tell marines a resource point around the corner is under attack, they should see it themselves. An individual marine is physically handicapped compared to aliens, but he also is nearly blind to the tactical situation. Let those guys see the weapons/health/armor of their friends and nearby buildings. Let them know where they are on the map!
As an RTS, NS seems more similar to Starcraft than Total Annihilation. There is the different races approach (inherently difficult to balance, much harder than, e.g. marines vs. marines), and there is the dreaded micromanagement.
In Total Annihilation, I could use the waypoint system to automate the whole battle, with very little need to focus on individuals. Automated repair, build sequences, recon patrols... In Starcraft, I had to order individual units to use their 'magical' attacks. I prefer Total Annihilation.
Also, mostly unrelated: aren't the HMG ans shotgun too similar?
LMG: light weapon, good aim
Pistol: light weapon, good aim
Shotgun: heavy weapon, huge spread
HMG: heavy weapon, huge spread
If I may make a suggestion, make HMG slightly weaker than shotgun, but more accurate. That way, there is a tactical decision: take the risk to get close and do big damage, or stay at a distance but with a bit less power.
Comments
I like the current view from commander. Maybe you need a better computer if you're just using 640*480.
And yes, I'd like to see less micromanagement, not because I can't handle it, it's because in StarCraft or Total Annihilation, your units don't scream or whine for something. A weapon locker and a med station would both be nice, but might require some tinkering.
ahh well one day ill get a new comp
Ever since the patch, I've seen the Marines win about five games and I play for many hours every day. If the alien side knows how to act as a team, they win. It's really that simple.
Example: We had a bunch of Lerks Umbra a Marine Turret farm and everyone rushed in and destroyed everything. No one died. It was prolly the most beautiful team work I think I've ever seen in a game so far. We managed to take down not only their mini base, but all the Heavy Armour Marines as well. It was extremely sweet.
The problem is that nade spamming is **obscenity** and I've been madly frusterated when Marines just lob grenades around corners and take an entire base out before we can even use the Movement Chambers to get there, or trying to kill a Marine with a Heavy MachineGun, but you can't expect to Rambo it alone and win. Not happening. But then, if the aliens are good enough, they can madly delay the Marines from getting those guns and before you know it, they've got Onos inside their base before they've got anything.
The other problem is bugs, ya, it sucks evolving into an Onos only to get stuck trying to jump over Defense Chambers, or what have you, but then you can't expect a developer to nail down everything, especially a small non-professional team with very little budget. Besides, look at Counter-Strike. They have had two years of patching and they're finally getting bug free.
I think it would totally make sense, and reduce the amount of micro.. slightly...
-Lazerus--
I think it's best that we refrain from saying what is unbalanced or what needs to be changed. Maybe one month from now, but only if a person has played many games of NS.
The team has spent a long time balancing the game, they woulden't of released it without feeling that both sides are reasonably balanced. Sometimes something in a mod will get bitched about for being unbalanced, but people don't know how to use it properly or find a way to counter it. Sometimes only a pro will know how to use something. So if someone thinks that the aliens are too weak, perhaps they are not using them right, same with marines.
I'll give you an example. A friend tells me he is playing NS, im like "WHOA IT'S OUT NOW!". He says that he thinks the marine side is overpowered, more people play marines and that the turrets are too powerful.
After loading up a game of NS, I sort of start getting worried. But after thinking about it some, I realize that everything should be fine.
Take those turrets for example. They can only aim up or down 30 degrees. Level 1 can walk along the celing right?(I've never tried, but you can climb walls with him so that should be possible) Level 3 can fly over them, level 4 can blink past them. Level5 can tear them all up. That's only direct tactics, there's other tactics for professionals im sure.
You see I think it's that EVERYONE is a n00b, n00bs will have more trouble playing aliens no doubt. People have to learn how to use their abilities. After telling my friend my thoughts, he sorta agreed with me. He didn't read the manual yet. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
So what's wrong with complaining though?
1)Many complainers are un-qualified. They are new to the game, haven't played it enough, haven't learnt better tactics, or simply have trouble with HL mods.
2)When people complain, it may end up distorting the views of those who don't normally complain. They may start to view something as real even though they don't have a problem with it. So they may start disliking something, they may rally behind the complainer, or they may agree and not bother debating against his viewpoint.
3)The will of the people prevails, eventually the team starts nerfing stuff, it creates a rift. Many of the pros start getting upset that alot of unnesscary changes have been done to their beloved game. So they to start complaining, complaining that the team has over-compensated, or worse, fixed a non-problem. Now the poor team must play a ping pong game of problem fixing, when the perfection could of stayed if many a person had kept their mouth shut and waited.
Now maybe the team would rather risk these problems, then take the chance that a true problem goes unfixed, but it's their game after all. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm not so sure about the medpack/ammo stuff. Because that might make it TOO easy. Yes it may be annoying...but that causes teamwork -> people stick together and learn to gravitate towards bases if they want anything, and that if they go out alone they will be killed. The more self-service you make it, the less incentive the marines actually have to <b>rely</b> on the commander, and the less teamwork <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Sure the comm view could use some touchups. Didn't flayra say he was going to do that anyway? I'm not so sure I like this self-service idea. It is a slippery slope.
Other than that, bilebomb damage against structures should be increased, but I believe that was just a bug that' going to be fixed. With the current situation, you often get a standoff where aliens own the map but find it very difficult to get past the turret farms in a marine base, while the marines have no hope in hell of ever getting out of their base due to a dozen fades at the entrance, but they still manage to hold it almost indefinitely. I expect there to be fewer stalemates once that is fixed. Bile bomb should be something like the siege cannon: you get it when you own most of the map, and it finishes the game if you use it correctly.
I think it would totally make sense, and reduce the amount of micro.. slightly...
-Lazerus--<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
gooooo u! sifnt armory give medpacks