I believe there will be more fallout from changing the system to an unfamiliar one (the letters system). Even though I would prefer a letter system, just go with the grid since everyone associates it with NS already.
<!--quoteo(post=1809410:date=Nov 23 2010, 03:14 PM:name=Feha)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Feha @ Nov 23 2010, 03:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809410"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I <i>really</i> want wasd to be movement keys for the commander, as it is highly uncomfortable to play with criss-crossed arms (like this: X).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was hoping for a way to drag the screen rather than dragging my cursor to the end of the screen. At the moment the best way of getting around is clicking on the minimap. Using the arrow keys has a slight delay, and the mouse does as well but sometimes will lag and skip to the other end of the map.
<!--quoteo(post=1809434:date=Nov 23 2010, 09:37 PM:name=Dauntl3ss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dauntl3ss @ Nov 23 2010, 09:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809434"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is one example of why I don't want grid style hotkeys.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> On NS type of game things can be avoided since you don't have to select units so much. In NS1 any alternative setup for recycling and cancelling would've eliminated practically any overlap.
Apart from the recycle issue, I can't recall too many moments where I'd have misdropped things on a familiar keyboard. Mines and ammopacks maybe shouldn't be in the same key since you can't tell the difference until it's too late, but that has happened maybe twice during the ridiculous amount of games I've commed.
All in all, both key layouts are fine with some smart design and thinking.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2010
Funny thing is the video you linked, I find the T being very annoyingly located as well. Kinda hints at the fact that the letter system being all over the place is just crazy to work with :D
[edit1]What I truly miss currently is the middlemouse button for moving around in a small area
[edit2]I tend to use the minimap now for that small area movement purpose
If it's at all possible I'd like the 3 options....letters, grid, custom. I'm only just getting brave enough to attempt the command chairs and using the letters initially is confidence building...I'm sure with experience, I'd want the grid though :-)
Neither of these approaches are necessarily correct. You need to actually design a setup that is enjoyable to play, rather than merely stick to 'letters' or 'grid' indiscriminately. In the letters approach for example it's wrong to just chose a key that is free and think that it will suffice. Consider the classic starcraft 1 setup which was what you might describe as 'letters'. For a Protoss player making pylons and probes required the use of the 'P' key, which was at the wrong side of the keyboard. Making zealots was on Z. This forced good protoss players to have to use 8,9,0 hotkeys for their nexuses so they could make probes and pylons easier. Then they would actually have to switch hand positions when they went to macro their army or control their forces.
Starcraft 2's default shortcut setup smartly moved all common keys close to the left side of the keyboard. So probes and pylons are now on E. This is not 'grid', nor is it 'letters'. It's far more important that you consider things like this and design the defaults appropriately, rather than thinking that you need to make the shortcut keys 'easy to learn'. The fact is that learning shortcut keys is not difficult no matter where they are on the keyboard. It just isn't. You learn it once through play and then you'll pick it up very quickly.
Grid has it's own problems in that it also applies the shortcuts indiscriminately. For example, in Starcraft 2 using grid means that common functions such as zerg's 'select larvae' is on Q. But I don't want to have to keep hitting this with my pinky finger when I'm spamming to select my larvae throughout the game. It's far better for it to be in a good location like S that I can hit with a nice finger. So in this case you can use 'letters', but it is secondary to the key's prime location on the keyboard. Also, all of the unit spell abilities like storm, fungal growth are on the bottom row indiscriminately. This makes it slightly worse to cast a psi storm for example, instead of hitting '3+T' which is easy. 3 being where you might hotkey your high templars, of course.
Also merely the fact that they are on a grid I don't even think makes it any easier to learn at all. It sounds like it would, but when I see the command card I can't immediately associate a command's location with the appropriate keyboard button. I still have to actually learn what the button is in the normal way. But maybe that's just the way my brain works.
While you are right, Charlie, standard hotkeys make more "sense" in the short term, the hotley grid removes the middleman of self doubt and forethought in terms of the relation of keys and their individual meanings.
hotkeys are a kinesthetic action meant to be quick.. as quick as your fingers can move with little thought involved.
i'm fine with either, although letter is the one i'm used to. just please fix medspam - every time i drop a med pack or ammo pack on a squad overlay area, or on a marine, it selects the squad/marine and i have to reselect the cc to continue dropping meds.
I'm used to "letter" hotkeys, to be honest. However, I'd make an exception if the grid operates in a specific way. If the commander interface has, say, a 3x3 grid in the bottom right, and 3x3 keys on the keyboard are mapped to each slot, I could learn that. Then add some extra keys to take care of other functions not found in the 3x3 button grid.
I have honestly never heard of the grid system, although I only recently started using hotkeys at all, I still don't use them much (other than medpack spam in NS1).
I think that a simple first letter system is better, if you want something just press the letter and it gives you it, it takes work to make it work for a lot of stuff, but with some thought as to what you really need to do (issue common orders, build common units, use common powers) you can make it entirely intuitve for most people, and access stuff normally deep inside the interface.
Unless I can press a key and get something I would normally have to go through menus to use, I probably wouldn't ever need hotkeys.
<!--quoteo(post=1809463:date=Nov 23 2010, 09:25 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Nov 23 2010, 09:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809463"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i'm fine with either, although letter is the one i'm used to. just please fix medspam - every time i drop a med pack or ammo pack on a squad overlay area, or on a marine, it selects the squad/marine and i have to reselect the cc to continue dropping meds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Letter system seems easier to learn but only in theory, that's because idealy even with a letter system you want all your keys to be on the same side of the keyboard. And at that point you basicly just use random letters from the words instead of the beginning letters. Which leads to the whole thing beeing even more difficult to learn because it's not consistent.
I also hate how SC2 did go trough the trouble of hiding the grid option somewhere in the options, by the time i discovered it had grid i allready learned most of the letters so i didn't want to learn from scratch again with the grid and then you would have custom maps that use a pseudo grid to control stuff....
As someone who hasn't commanded a real game in more than half a decade, I voted for the Grid system. Just makes sense, if you ask me. Seems easier to learn, faster to use, and more flexible than the letter system.
EDIT: What happened to that break, guys? Stepping away from your work for a little while sounds well deserved to me. It is also a great way to get a fresh new look on previous work, and helps you approach frustrating problems from a new angle, or with a new attitude. Taking a break can literately save the day!
is it really that hard to have both implemented?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doesn't sound like it, but I think their asking which one should be the default option. I voted for letter, but as long as its customizable, it shouldn't really matter. I do ask that you make it so the grid system can fit on the numpad (i.e. a 3x3 grid system) if possible. I'm a bit weird in RTS/FPS hybrid games that I like my wasd keys to be movement in both the fps and rts modes (so both a letter and left sided grid system wouldn't work for me).
<!--quoteo(post=1809361:date=Nov 23 2010, 03:27 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Nov 23 2010, 03:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809361"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good point. But actually, we're changing the alien commander HUD to be more standard and like the marine HUD.
Every time we try to make a "custom" commander UI, we end up going with the more traditional one! Lesson learned...again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Awww... I really love the alien comm UI right now.Why would you change it?
If you can dynamically set the grid it would be great.
QWERTY ASDFG ZXCVB
These keys are off centre, where as if you could map it to the numpad as well, that would be great.
The only issue you have to deal with is visual representation, so I gather you are looking at hotkey methods first because this will effect the final layout.
Not sure how difficult it would be, but could you select a grid size - 3333 vs 444 and then individually pick the keys for the positions in the menu? E.g:
[1][2][3] [4][5][6] [7][8][9] [Ins][Del][Enter]
or
[q][w][e][r] [a][s][d][f] [z][x][c][v]
Also, the most important and used keys should be on the top line... and that will have to relate to the menu as well.
So for the build bot [Q] would be build menu..
The alien hud is nice in its current form, but I think it is the styling and sounds that are really making it work. As long as you do not have 'bold' square outlines and keep the buttons fading into the alpha channel, it should be very similar.
I think the Grid system is much better as you don't have to look at your keyboard at all, even during the first games, so you can focus on the game.
I really wouldn't want the Infantry Portal to be on 'I' for example. Can you imagine the jump with the hand ? I'd rater have it under my fingers, with my hand not moving except going up/down.
QWER / ASDF / ZXCV is really good in my opinion.
Plus let's admit that the letter system is more intuitive (which I do not agree with), then the Armory and the (let's say) Advanced Armory, makes you use a key that is not intuitive, in a system where keys are not easily reachable. Sounds like lose-lose to me.
But I understand the argument of those who use keys. So I'd go for allowing an option :)
I'd still put Grid default. So much easier to pick up really.
<!--quoteo(post=1809378:date=Nov 23 2010, 08:40 PM:name=Racer1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racer1 @ Nov 23 2010, 08:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809378"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Most newb commanders won't be using the hotkeys anyways -- they will be clicking on the UI buttons with their mouse. Once they are comfortable enough to learn the buttons, they can figure out the grid method intuitively.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1809388:date=Nov 23 2010, 08:55 PM:name=Stakhanov)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stakhanov @ Nov 23 2010, 08:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809388"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The grid system made NS1 commanding much easier. If it ain't broke...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
Grid, and only grid. Beginners will use mouse anyway. Grid works great in NS. And then everyone will use the same system. No need to ask what key something is as it's stated in the GUI and the grid makes sense for both sides.
..<a href="http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/415P1SK791L.jpg" target="_blank">maybe it's just the designer in me</a>. ;)
grid system is not only faster but its more logical.
Games like heroes of newerth use the grid system and newbies pick it up very quickly.
I don't think you guys should use the 'letter' system, your mind can associate positions of buttons to positions under your finders in a grid format much quicker then you can mouse over and remember 'b' is for build and remember to get your finger to b each time.
Comments
I was hoping for a way to drag the screen rather than dragging my cursor to the end of the screen. At the moment the best way of getting around is clicking on the minimap. Using the arrow keys has a slight delay, and the mouse does as well but sometimes will lag and skip to the other end of the map.
On NS type of game things can be avoided since you don't have to select units so much. In NS1 any alternative setup for recycling and cancelling would've eliminated practically any overlap.
Apart from the recycle issue, I can't recall too many moments where I'd have misdropped things on a familiar keyboard. Mines and ammopacks maybe shouldn't be in the same key since you can't tell the difference until it's too late, but that has happened maybe twice during the ridiculous amount of games I've commed.
All in all, both key layouts are fine with some smart design and thinking.
[edit1]What I truly miss currently is the middlemouse button for moving around in a small area
[edit2]I tend to use the minimap now for that small area movement purpose
The reason is that you can change the button layouts without causing huge issues for existing players.
Starcraft 2's default shortcut setup smartly moved all common keys close to the left side of the keyboard. So probes and pylons are now on E. This is not 'grid', nor is it 'letters'. It's far more important that you consider things like this and design the defaults appropriately, rather than thinking that you need to make the shortcut keys 'easy to learn'. The fact is that learning shortcut keys is not difficult no matter where they are on the keyboard. It just isn't. You learn it once through play and then you'll pick it up very quickly.
Grid has it's own problems in that it also applies the shortcuts indiscriminately. For example, in Starcraft 2 using grid means that common functions such as zerg's 'select larvae' is on Q. But I don't want to have to keep hitting this with my pinky finger when I'm spamming to select my larvae throughout the game. It's far better for it to be in a good location like S that I can hit with a nice finger. So in this case you can use 'letters', but it is secondary to the key's prime location on the keyboard. Also, all of the unit spell abilities like storm, fungal growth are on the bottom row indiscriminately. This makes it slightly worse to cast a psi storm for example, instead of hitting '3+T' which is easy. 3 being where you might hotkey your high templars, of course.
Also merely the fact that they are on a grid I don't even think makes it any easier to learn at all. It sounds like it would, but when I see the command card I can't immediately associate a command's location with the appropriate keyboard button. I still have to actually learn what the button is in the normal way. But maybe that's just the way my brain works.
While you are right, Charlie, standard hotkeys make more "sense" in the short term, the hotley grid removes the middleman of self doubt and forethought in terms of the relation of keys and their individual meanings.
hotkeys are a kinesthetic action meant to be quick.. as quick as your fingers can move with little thought involved.
Give us an option though!
is it really that hard to have both implemented?
+1
I think that a simple first letter system is better, if you want something just press the letter and it gives you it, it takes work to make it work for a lot of stuff, but with some thought as to what you really need to do (issue common orders, build common units, use common powers) you can make it entirely intuitve for most people, and access stuff normally deep inside the interface.
Unless I can press a key and get something I would normally have to go through menus to use, I probably wouldn't ever need hotkeys.
<!--quoteo(post=1809463:date=Nov 23 2010, 09:25 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Nov 23 2010, 09:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809463"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i'm fine with either, although letter is the one i'm used to. just please fix medspam - every time i drop a med pack or ammo pack on a squad overlay area, or on a marine, it selects the squad/marine and i have to reselect the cc to continue dropping meds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also consider hotkey to select nearest CC.
Letter system seems easier to learn but only in theory, that's because idealy even with a letter system you want all your keys to be on the same side of the keyboard. And at that point you basicly just use random letters from the words instead of the beginning letters. Which leads to the whole thing beeing even more difficult to learn because it's not consistent.
I also hate how SC2 did go trough the trouble of hiding the grid option somewhere in the options, by the time i discovered it had grid i allready learned most of the letters so i didn't want to learn from scratch again with the grid and then you would have custom maps that use a pseudo grid to control stuff....
But I cant make my mind on this.
Grid is sure more efficient, only competitive players will use them and pub players will stick to the letter.
EDIT: What happened to that break, guys? Stepping away from your work for a little while sounds well deserved to me. It is also a great way to get a fresh new look on previous work, and helps you approach frustrating problems from a new angle, or with a new attitude. Taking a break can literately save the day!
is it really that hard to have both implemented?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doesn't sound like it, but I think their asking which one should be the default option. I voted for letter, but as long as its customizable, it shouldn't really matter. I do ask that you make it so the grid system can fit on the numpad (i.e. a 3x3 grid system) if possible. I'm a bit weird in RTS/FPS hybrid games that I like my wasd keys to be movement in both the fps and rts modes (so both a letter and left sided grid system wouldn't work for me).
Every time we try to make a "custom" commander UI, we end up going with the more traditional one! Lesson learned...again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Awww... I really love the alien comm UI right now.Why would you change it?
QWERTY
ASDFG
ZXCVB
These keys are off centre, where as if you could map it to the numpad as well, that would be great.
The only issue you have to deal with is visual representation, so I gather you are looking at hotkey methods first because this will effect the final layout.
Not sure how difficult it would be, but could you select a grid size - 3333 vs 444 and then individually pick the keys for the positions in the menu? E.g:
[1][2][3]
[4][5][6]
[7][8][9]
[Ins][Del][Enter]
or
[q][w][e][r]
[a][s][d][f]
[z][x][c][v]
Also, the most important and used keys should be on the top line... and that will have to relate to the menu as well.
So for the build bot [Q] would be build menu..
The alien hud is nice in its current form, but I think it is the styling and sounds that are really making it work. As long as you do not have 'bold' square outlines and keep the buttons fading into the alpha channel, it should be very similar.
Just makes more sense and easier for people to comm.
I've been in games in NS1 where people weren't Johnny on the spot with commands because they where new to the game or comm'ing.
I really wouldn't want the Infantry Portal to be on 'I' for example. Can you imagine the jump with the hand ? I'd rater have it under my fingers, with my hand not moving except going up/down.
QWER / ASDF / ZXCV is really good in my opinion.
Plus let's admit that the letter system is more intuitive (which I do not agree with), then the Armory and the (let's say) Advanced Armory, makes you use a key that is not intuitive, in a system where keys are not easily reachable. Sounds like lose-lose to me.
But I understand the argument of those who use keys. So I'd go for allowing an option :)
I'd still put Grid default. So much easier to pick up really.
<!--quoteo(post=1809388:date=Nov 23 2010, 08:55 PM:name=Stakhanov)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stakhanov @ Nov 23 2010, 08:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809388"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The grid system made NS1 commanding much easier. If it ain't broke...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
Grid, and only grid. Beginners will use mouse anyway. Grid works great in NS. And then everyone will use the same system. No need to ask what key something is as it's stated in the GUI and the grid makes sense for both sides.
..<a href="http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/415P1SK791L.jpg" target="_blank">maybe it's just the designer in me</a>. ;)
I didn't have to reach across the keyboard to do a simple task without having to worry about hitting the wrong key.
+1
<3 SC2
Games like heroes of newerth use the grid system and newbies pick it up very quickly.
I don't think you guys should use the 'letter' system, your mind can associate positions of buttons to positions under your finders in a grid format much quicker then you can mouse over and remember 'b' is for build and remember to get your finger to b each time.