Grenade launcher a bit to powerfull?
GeneralBowser
Join Date: 2010-05-19 Member: 71801Members
Join Date: 2010-05-19 Member: 71801Members
I'm sure its been said, but since I don't see it on the progress log I figured Idd make a post..
Well as it is now as soon as I got that grenade launcher I'm invinsible. I kill all alliens in 1 hit, apart from fade who goes down in 2 hits. I also can outrun the fade so the only way he has a chance is if he blinks right next to me...
I know that we still need to see the onos, but it seems to me grenade launcher should be at least tier 3 the way it is now..
The grenade launcher should def do friendly fire aswell...
Well as it is now as soon as I got that grenade launcher I'm invinsible. I kill all alliens in 1 hit, apart from fade who goes down in 2 hits. I also can outrun the fade so the only way he has a chance is if he blinks right next to me...
I know that we still need to see the onos, but it seems to me grenade launcher should be at least tier 3 the way it is now..
The grenade launcher should def do friendly fire aswell...
Comments
As you can see, one of the fixes already in is that the GL can't do damage trough walls. Then i think there is a problem with the structural damage of it.
And in the end the current costs are not representative, because everything costs too little, because like that it is easier to test it.
The tech advancement needs to slow down to allow enjoyable fights inbetween each tier, hopefully the costs will be higher too. It'd be great too if the Armory needed time to spawn in more weapons, it would stop the constant wave of Flamethrowers/Grenade Launchers which can make it tough for the Kharaa to push or defend against.
A gl needs reloading between each shoot (good skulk can dodge wiht leap), is not instant at reaching the target (nade flies trough air first), and a fade that is hit can still flee (no flames blocking view).
I do agree it needs some serious nerfing though, preferably damaging the player who use it (even when ff is off), not damaging trough walls, make damage falloff by distance to center (so hitting a skulk should kill it, hitting a bit away from it should only damage it severly), and cost more (but also make rine gain res for the kills).
Maybe also make armory replenish nades slower?
This makes nading at feets not as smart, and it gets more of a structure killing role.
But flamethrower is what needs the biggest changes :P. To much dmg, to much range, view obstructing, persisting after death, pierce trough walls, very cheap, alo of ammo, and so on :P.
As for the flamethrower, in addition to severely toning down the blinding effect, alien players (and structures) that are on fire should be able to ignite marines on contact. This will make players more cautious with its use, as a flaming alien can easily give the flame wielder a taste of his own medicine. Leaping skulks would make poor flamethrower targets, for example.
It would also be cool if whips on fire could also ignite players with their default attack, and hydras on fire would fire flaming needles that do extra damage.
It is beyond my imagination how the hell did you not add friendly fire as default, I think we have seen enough of retards spamming gl at their feet or emptying LMG clip to a friendly marine in NS1.
@Donner & Blitzen
Cool -read stupid- things can wait lets add something more of value.
Cool -read stupid- things can wait lets add something more of value.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is of value. Like I said, it promotes less careless spamming of the flamethrower, as your own flames can hurt you.
The GL has already had teh problem with its blast going through walls fixed, it will get friendly fire damage, at least to the marine who is firing it, it will probably have its blast radius brought down a bit, and its damage values will probably get tweaked, as well.
The flamethrower was always meant to be more for burning DI and alien structures, so that is going to get nerfed against players as well. Also the obnoxious screen covering flame effect is getting changed. It was just using the 3rd person flame effect and didn't have its own first person effect yet, but that was being worked on last week.
--Cory
Making the flamethrower an almost entirely utility weapon and not effective in combat would make carrying it suicide. Better to make it powerful in the sense you don't need to aim it, but weak in the sense you perhaps need to reload it often or wait for it to cool down, or perhaps the shotgun can get a range extension making the flamethrower the shortest range weapon in the game, or some other limitation.
Don't make it weak, just don't make it universally better.
Why not instead incorporate the minimum safe arming distance like that used in 40mm grenades. In this way the user is not killed by a shot at his feet, the grenade will not explode, and we don't see marines doing suicide kills with the gl.
Also explode on impact and explode after delay (after bouncing against a few walls) are both kind of primitive. Why not adopt an air-burst feature for the grenades so they blow up when they're close to an enemy, in flight, with explode on impact as the default if no enemy is close enough (perform distance calculations between the grenades 3d position and enemies in the room at some interval during flight [tweak the delay between repeated distance calculations until optimal]... and use squared-euclidean-distance-metrics to avoid the need to perform square roots in your distance calculations). <a href="http://defensetech.org/2010/05/06/army-sending-precision-grenade-launcher-to-afghanistan/" target="_blank">http://defensetech.org/2010/05/06/army-sen...to-afghanistan/</a>
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The GL has already had teh problem with its blast going through walls fixed, it will get friendly fire damage, at least to the marine who is firing it, it will probably have its blast radius brought down a bit, and its damage values will probably get tweaked, as well.
The flamethrower was always meant to be more for burning DI and alien structures, so that is going to get nerfed against players as well. Also the obnoxious screen covering flame effect is getting changed. It was just using the 3rd person flame effect and didn't have its own first person effect yet, but that was being worked on last week.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thank you for putting that to rest.
Making the flamethrower an almost entirely utility weapon and not effective in combat would make carrying it suicide. Better to make it powerful in the sense you don't need to aim it, but weak in the sense you perhaps need to reload it often or wait for it to cool down, or perhaps the shotgun can get a range extension making the flamethrower the shortest range weapon in the game, or some other limitation.
Don't make it weak, just don't make it universally better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats why u travel in a team......
and to the other guy that said turn the grenade launcher into a mini- heat seeking missle launcher, ffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
And do what exactly?
Shoot the flamethrower at the walls?
I don't think that is going to be a very popular role to play.
Much better to make that a secondary function and give the flamethrower user an option to take a direct part in the combat.
The one carrying the flamethrower will be like a gorge with heal spray, you need him.
Shoot the flamethrower at the walls?
I don't think that is going to be a very popular role to play.
Much better to make that a secondary function and give the flamethrower user an option to take a direct part in the combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hey man if u dont like it, dont grab a freakin flamethrower. Having 12 guys walking down hallways all with flamethrowers just on god mode untouchable doesnt sound very fun to me either
It would also be cool if whips on fire could also ignite players with their default attack, and hydras on fire would fire flaming needles that do extra damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hope the devs already had this in mind and, if not, that they see this post and implement this. I think Aliens and Whips setting marines on fire would be awesome (and funny) and will add a lot of dimension to using the flamethrower. For some reason I'm not crazy about the Hydra's shooting flaming needles though - I don't think it would be fair, especially since they will probably nerf the range of the flamethrower.
that is a great idea, and would slow down the flamehtrower a little bit, nto to mention funny, sitting there flaming up some alien buildings, and one of your newbie teammates walks by and catches on fire lol, while you just rofl.
A viewpoint I imagine most people would share, which is the problem. There is no point having a weapon that people won't use.
<!--quoteo(post=1811396:date=Nov 28 2010, 04:53 AM:name=thecowsaysmoo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (thecowsaysmoo @ Nov 28 2010, 04:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811396"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having 12 guys walking down hallways all with flamethrowers just on god mode untouchable doesnt sound very fun to me either<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hence why you don't make it god mode?
I did say to balance it, for example you could make it so that no matter how many flamethrowers you have going at you, it doesn't cause any more damage, because you're already on fire. Combine that with a very short range and things like lerks being able to entirely stay out of range, and fades being able to blink behind the marine before they get into range, and you have some fairly big limitations on the flamethrower. To say nothing of the onos bone shield meaning that walking down hallways is going to be very hard if the marines run up against just one onos.
Like I said, niche powers, not overall weakness. It's good on its own, but more than one doesn't help too much against attacking aliens, although several could be used to clear a room. It's good against rushing skulks and gorge structures, and perhaps could do limited damage against bone shielding onoses, but against the fade with its teleport and the lerk lurking in the rafters it won't be very good, you need more range to deal with both of those.
The lerk would be the best counter but a good fade could probably deal with a flamethrower guy quite easily once they fix the blinding effect.
<!--quoteo(post=1811415:date=Nov 28 2010, 07:11 AM:name=Warmonger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Warmonger @ Nov 28 2010, 07:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811415"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hope the devs already had this in mind and, if not, that they see this post and implement this. I think Aliens and Whips setting marines on fire would be awesome (and funny) and will add a lot of dimension to using the flamethrower. For some reason I'm not crazy about the Hydra's shooting flaming needles though - I don't think it would be fair, especially since they will probably nerf the range of the flamethrower.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It'd add the dimension of people hating you for using it because it makes the aliens infinitely more dangerous.
Why on earth would you make a gun that is more a danger its user and the team than to the enemy?
The GL has already had teh problem with its blast going through walls fixed, it will get friendly fire damage, at least to the marine who is firing it, it will probably have its blast radius brought down a bit, and its damage values will probably get tweaked, as well.
<b>The flamethrower was always meant to be more for burning DI and alien structures</b>, so that is going to get nerfed against players as well. Also the obnoxious screen covering flame effect is getting changed. It was just using the 3rd person flame effect and didn't have its own first person effect yet, but that was being worked on last week.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Squee!!!
<!--quoteo(post=1811434:date=Nov 28 2010, 04:19 AM:name=zombii?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zombii? @ Nov 28 2010, 04:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811434"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Over heating meter is a great idea!!!! +1<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When the damage value is broken, implementing a limitation to the high damage is going about the problem backward. Trying to fix something broken by adding another variable of complexity is really tough. Just fix the single broken variable you have; just nerf the flamethrower's damage.
Then we can think about making the flamethrower cool and complex. Overheating sounds interesting :D
Then we can think about making the flamethrower cool and complex. Overheating sounds interesting :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is that if you just nerf the damage output of a weapon which deals a steady stream of damage, then you make it quite slow to kill things.
NS is full of high DPS weapons which have a limited usage time. The shotgun does massive amounts of damage but it does it in an instant and then has cooldown. The rifle does a lot of damage but you empty the clip quickly. The flamethrower on the other hand takes a while to empty, but if you just nerf the damage you end up with aliens being able to kill you even if you hit them constantly, because your DPS is so low.
Limiting the duration of the damage output brings it more in line with the other weapons and thus should make it more balanced.
Of course high damage output but low immediate DPS is an interesting mechanic, very good for things that aren't an immediate threat, such as the onos or structures, with those you aren't facing something which is neccesarily faster or which is going to immediately kill you if you don't kill it now, so a long duration weapon would be more powerful against those.
Perhaps the flamethrower should fire a lower DPS stream as its secondary fire, but its primary fre is a higher DPS burst mode which is more suitable for things like skulks and fades, more like a shotgun in fact, but which causes overheating when used two or three times in a row, so it would have a disadvantage over the shotgun.