<!--quoteo(post=1813042:date=Dec 3 2010, 04:53 PM:name=Schimmel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schimmel @ Dec 3 2010, 04:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1813042"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i was reading (almost) the whole thread, and I had an idea: we currently have to research the weapons before the marines can buy them at the armory. so, just keep this system, but attach the upgrades to the armory you researched it (its like the armory produces the weapons you upgraded).
as even flayra said before, you should be able as commander to drop weapons for plasma, but i would like to see that the commander doesnt need to research the upgrades. The weapon drop (and upgrades) still should keep their prerequisites.
if too many people run around with shotguns -> drop a few flamethrowers / gls. any marine will pick up the "free" weapon and will be happy. you would be able to balance weapons compositions in your squads.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm currently reading this as "commander doesn't have to research X tech before dropping X advanced weapon, but tech must be researched for marines to purchase for themselves"
In which case.... no. Cap a res node, turtle for 5 min, Flamethrower rush, GG.
If I read it wrong, I have no clue what you actually meant.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
edited December 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1813042:date=Dec 3 2010, 05:53 PM:name=Schimmel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schimmel @ Dec 3 2010, 05:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1813042"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The weapon drop (and upgrades) still should keep their prerequisites.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
besides of that, a weapon would not cost 1 plasma...
<!--quoteo(post=1812658:date=Dec 2 2010, 06:12 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Dec 2 2010, 06:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1812658"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you get personal res from RT's...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1812479:date=Dec 2 2010, 02:19 PM:name=deathshroud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (deathshroud @ Dec 2 2010, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1812479"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i would prefer a system were, the commander has to build each weapon using resource and they are then picked up at hte armory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
This is massively needed. So commander able to manage team res.
It is imperative to understand the effect of contingent rewards :
"Do X, Get Y."
This isn't good, because we're doing X only for Y, we lose the intrinsic motivation in the task. Player finds a way to exploit the task to make it more "Get Y." Result = ###### game.
A better, more satisfying game would be :
"Defend this area while we build"(So we can win the game, because that is what we're here for) "Ok, nice work holding off those skulks while we got the RT Player1" (drop Player1 a shotgun next time he spawns)
We've got the same result, Marine completes task and receives a reward. But what is different is in the first example he was motivated not by the intrinsic merit of the task but by the promise of reward.
In the second instance the player completes the task because it is of benefit to the team, when he receives a reward without it being prescribed, the sense of accomplishment is better and he is now motivated to complete these tasks by the value of the TASK (playing a game) than the REWARD (better weaponry).
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
i more and more dislike the idea that the commander has to build/drop the weapons. It just seems like waaaay to much micromanagement. The current system absolutely works, after many rounds of playing ns2 i don't see any problem with it..
I haven't read the thread as a whole, so I might be reating more than a few things. However, the thing I'd like to point out is how vital the commander dropped weapons are for spontantenous adaptation.
You simply can't yell: "Team, get 2 shotguns, 1 GL and 2 welders" and push a location. It simply doesn't happen. Some marine doesn't have res for anything, 3 guys all get GLs or the squad has no welders. Even for an organised team it might take a while to figure out a reliable pattern to get everything checked quickly.
So, what I really hope is that there will be strategical decisions more complex than "Aliens have X, I get Y if I can afford it."
My worries are mostly that NS2 might turn out to be:
a) Randomized: Everyone gets stuff what they feel and the amount of difficult-to-control factors gets unbearably high for any kind of advanced long term strategies to exist below the very top level of organised play.
b) Patternized: Everyone gets stuff on a predefined pattern that then proceeds into the predefined response depending on what the opponent does.
I guess comm dropped guns existing alongside the individual pools might work. Individual pools alone on the other hand sounds extremely chaotic for strategical thinking.
Edit: OK, Flayra says he's adding it on page 2. I think it's a good start. The individual pool effect probably diminishes though, but I hope there's a good middle ground where both pools are meaningful and add value to the game.
I prefer if commanders give weapons - it feel like you're part of a squad and there's some solidarity. People buying their own weapons is weird and doesn't even make sense to me. What are they actually exchanging for the weapon? 'Personal plasma'? What is that?
Don't mind if the armoury can give marines options to get items like better armour or laser sights etc, but the most important things should be given by commander otherwise you don't get the marine hierarchy feel.
<!--quoteo(post=1813541:date=Dec 5 2010, 05:13 AM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Dec 5 2010, 05:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1813541"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I prefer if commanders give weapons - it feel like you're part of a squad and there's some solidarity. People buying their own weapons is weird and doesn't even make sense to me. What are they actually exchanging for the weapon? 'Personal plasma'? What is that?
Don't mind if the armoury can give marines options to get items like better armour or laser sights etc, but the most important things should be given by commander otherwise you don't get the marine hierarchy feel.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes your're right lets remove personal res because the concept of personal res doesn't make sense, despite the fact the aliens had this since forever in ns1 along with the freedom to play as any lifeform as often as they wanted (but now that their's an alien commander, we can suspend these freedoms >:D).
We must improve the alien-commanders relationship with the aliens by preventing just anyone from going fade/onos/gorge/lerk otherwise you don't get the alien hierarchy feel, as you say.
I'll summarize the outcome of this:
First: The devs would need to seriously buff the amount of resources that the commander gets from rts (because their's just not enough for both structure building and weapon buying).
Second: You can guarantee a pile of flamethrowers next to the ips, which will be the indicator of a good com.
Third: A lot of good fades will be forced to play as skulks and other low-impact lifeforms. No more of the "i'll just go fade/onos/lork/gorge every time i respawn" (lawl).
Fourth: We accomplished nothing with regards to improving the commander-player relationship (The ONLY way to improve this is by improving the commander UI to allow him to order marines about more efficiently while also getting a better idea of what squads are where on the map, and a marine-minimap would help :P).
Fifth: Marines will adapt to the lack of high power weapons (which means the rifle gets a damage improvement for balance reasons... Their's no hmg in ns2 and remember how good the ns1 lmg was against skulks? >:D), and we see more turret farming [we have far to many marine commanders that swear by turrets being 100% essential right now, and they aren't] (turrets get a damage improvement to make them more then useless... more like the ones in the movie Aliens, so 2 can pretty much protect against anything :P).
Sixth: Mines and hand grenades get added to offset the lack of high power weapons for every marine, for early-to-mid game structure+alien killing.
Comments
so, just keep this system, but attach the upgrades to the armory you researched it (its like the armory produces the weapons you upgraded).
as even flayra said before, you should be able as commander to drop weapons for plasma, but i would like to see that the commander doesnt need to
research the upgrades. The weapon drop (and upgrades) still should keep their prerequisites.
if too many people run around with shotguns -> drop a few flamethrowers / gls. any marine will pick up the "free" weapon and will be happy.
you would be able to balance weapons compositions in your squads.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm currently reading this as "commander doesn't have to research X tech before dropping X advanced weapon, but tech must be researched for marines to purchase for themselves"
In which case.... no.
Cap a res node, turtle for 5 min, Flamethrower rush, GG.
If I read it wrong, I have no clue what you actually meant.
besides of that, a weapon would not cost 1 plasma...
orly? Personal Plasma?
+1
This is massively needed. So commander able to manage team res.
"Do X, Get Y."
This isn't good, because we're doing X only for Y, we lose the intrinsic motivation in the task. Player finds a way to exploit the task to make it more "Get Y." Result = ###### game.
A better, more satisfying game would be :
"Defend this area while we build"(So we can win the game, because that is what we're here for)
"Ok, nice work holding off those skulks while we got the RT Player1" (drop Player1 a shotgun next time he spawns)
We've got the same result, Marine completes task and receives a reward. But what is different is in the first example he was motivated not by the intrinsic merit of the task but by the promise of reward.
In the second instance the player completes the task because it is of benefit to the team, when he receives a reward without it being prescribed, the sense of accomplishment is better and he is now motivated to complete these tasks by the value of the TASK (playing a game) than the REWARD (better weaponry).
The current system absolutely works, after many rounds of playing ns2 i don't see any problem with it..
You simply can't yell: "Team, get 2 shotguns, 1 GL and 2 welders" and push a location. It simply doesn't happen. Some marine doesn't have res for anything, 3 guys all get GLs or the squad has no welders. Even for an organised team it might take a while to figure out a reliable pattern to get everything checked quickly.
So, what I really hope is that there will be strategical decisions more complex than "Aliens have X, I get Y if I can afford it."
My worries are mostly that NS2 might turn out to be:
a) Randomized: Everyone gets stuff what they feel and the amount of difficult-to-control factors gets unbearably high for any kind of advanced long term strategies to exist below the very top level of organised play.
b) Patternized: Everyone gets stuff on a predefined pattern that then proceeds into the predefined response depending on what the opponent does.
I guess comm dropped guns existing alongside the individual pools might work. Individual pools alone on the other hand sounds extremely chaotic for strategical thinking.
Edit: OK, Flayra says he's adding it on page 2. I think it's a good start. The individual pool effect probably diminishes though, but I hope there's a good middle ground where both pools are meaningful and add value to the game.
Don't mind if the armoury can give marines options to get items like better armour or laser sights etc, but the most important things should be given by commander otherwise you don't get the marine hierarchy feel.
Don't mind if the armoury can give marines options to get items like better armour or laser sights etc, but the most important things should be given by commander otherwise you don't get the marine hierarchy feel.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes your're right lets remove personal res because the concept of personal res doesn't make sense, despite the fact the aliens had this since forever in ns1 along with the freedom to play as any lifeform as often as they wanted (but now that their's an alien commander, we can suspend these freedoms >:D).
We must improve the alien-commanders relationship with the aliens by preventing just anyone from going fade/onos/gorge/lerk otherwise you don't get the alien hierarchy feel, as you say.
I'll summarize the outcome of this:
First: The devs would need to seriously buff the amount of resources that the commander gets from rts (because their's just not enough for both structure building and weapon buying).
Second: You can guarantee a pile of flamethrowers next to the ips, which will be the indicator of a good com.
Third: A lot of good fades will be forced to play as skulks and other low-impact lifeforms. No more of the "i'll just go fade/onos/lork/gorge every time i respawn" (lawl).
Fourth: We accomplished nothing with regards to improving the commander-player relationship (The ONLY way to improve this is by improving the commander UI to allow him to order marines about more efficiently while also getting a better idea of what squads are where on the map, and a marine-minimap would help :P).
Fifth: Marines will adapt to the lack of high power weapons (which means the rifle gets a damage improvement for balance reasons... Their's no hmg in ns2 and remember how good the ns1 lmg was against skulks? >:D), and we see more turret farming [we have far to many marine commanders that swear by turrets being 100% essential right now, and they aren't] (turrets get a damage improvement to make them more then useless... more like the ones in the movie Aliens, so 2 can pretty much protect against anything :P).
Sixth: Mines and hand grenades get added to offset the lack of high power weapons for every marine, for early-to-mid game structure+alien killing.