Sentry / hydra spam
[R8]DJBourgeoisie![[R8]DJBourgeoisie](https://forumstest.unknownworlds.com/uploads/ipb/nav-62176.jpg)
Join Date: 2007-09-05 Member: 62176Members
Join Date: 2007-09-05 Member: 62176Members
<div class="IPBDescription">What can be done about it</div>I don't understand why you can place a sentry turret without any required structure other than a power node. I realize the power node is meant to replace the turret factory structure (I think anyways), but right now there is no penalty for spamming turrets or hydras. Why not bring back the turret factory and limit the number of turrets that can be linked to that particular turret factory. That turret factory should also have a large radius that prevents dropping another turret factory near it. The hydras could also require something like a crag or a new structure, or simply make each hydra have a detection in a radius that also limits the number of them. On a side note why are hydras projectile based instead of raycast? Seems like an unnecessary expense, why if it shoots should it ever have a chance to miss?
So in summary, a turret factory would have 2 radius's...
<ul><li>The first radius is used for turret placement within it and controls the number of turrets (4 for example)</li><li>The second radius is much larger and disallows another turret factory to be placed within it</li></ul>
I'd love to see phase gates come back as well, and use the same system to prevent multiple phase gates in hives, but thats a whole other topic. Thoughts?
So in summary, a turret factory would have 2 radius's...
<ul><li>The first radius is used for turret placement within it and controls the number of turrets (4 for example)</li><li>The second radius is much larger and disallows another turret factory to be placed within it</li></ul>
I'd love to see phase gates come back as well, and use the same system to prevent multiple phase gates in hives, but thats a whole other topic. Thoughts?
Comments
We know this aint gonna happen so probably better limit hydra to like 1 per 2min and turrets 2 / zone.
This way a larger area can have more of them, and smaller areas are limited to a few. No need for another model to be created and clogging up the hallways and rooms either. because we can simply use the already present powergrid and the future DI
It could also be indicated somewhere on the HUD to show you how many structures are currently "powered" by your team in any given area. And it will also show how many slots are still available:
<b>Maintenance (8/10)</b>
<b>Cargo Hold (4/15)</b>
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><i>- Maybe with icons similar to how resources are displayed on the commander HUD</i><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
This would be much easier to balance and understand ingame as well. And will give the feeling back that buildings are more precious instead of being freely spammed as they are right now... Resource Collectors and Command Facilities/Hives should be excluded from these numbers I guess...
Firstly, there is nothing in the game that will take out structures effectively. So it is hard to comment too much on this.
The real question is 'why is there Spam?'.
# For marines sentries are ineffective. Instead of 2 being able to completely cover an entrance, you require 10 that still do not do the job.
# There is no way of effectively taking alien chambers down - the flame thrower does everything well, why not make it do one thing very well.
The alien team is currently very balanced compared to the marines (how you defend/attack), where as the marines struggle in both areas.
The problem is - how do you make it so the game does not become a stalemate. You can't have teams building structures as easily as they go down.
The key is to relate it then, not to 'front on' fire power - but to ingenuity and strategy. Such as how aliens get behind sentries to kill them. The siege is a great example of this - and huge fights occur when they start being placed. But obviously it is not in place yet - but more importantly at what tier will you obtain it?
This is copied and pasted from another thread in regard to sentries.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>NS1:</b>
On publics they were spammed, clan matches not used - why?
Because even though they were designed to look after your assets, you had to look after the assets that looked after your assets. You should be able to destroy them, but not as easily as you could. But people spammed it because you had to have 6 in one rooms to stop an attack. A waste of res.
<b>NS2:</b> (Beta, I know)
Currently aliens have the whip. It pretty much stops anyone entering a room when combined with a crag, and you can be instantly killed if two hit you at once. Combined with the other chambers and aliens flying at you - very hard work.
So why are the sentry guns useless, considering it is their only defensive structure (at this point)?
<b>Build 157:</b>
A skulk can still run the whole marine start, and only die after 30 meters of 2 sentry guns firing constantly - Targeting seems broken maybe? The huge negative of having a turret that has a FOV of 90 degrees should be outweighed by huge fire/stopping power. A big visual extravaganza of extreme ROF, but low damage.
<img src="http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/5549/1bad.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<b>Why?</b>
Because it makes for an interesting dynamic. The marines should be able to set up forward bases in secrecy, that are relatively secure. Areas that can be used as hopping points later on, or caches before a hive is attacked near by. Even just for the fact of being area secure that the aliens find all too easy at the moment.
<img src="http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/7125/2bad.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I am not saying this set up should be impenetrable (maybe from the front) but the fact that aliens have nooks and crannies, props, vents and the possibility of diversionary tactics would make for some interesting game play. Once they are behind them it is game over anyway, and the fade just makes mince meat of everything now.
# Less spam
# Area control
# Get used from publics - professional play<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Marines:</b>
For me the solution is to have less sentries - hugely effective stopping power. The negative aspect being that they can be eaten easily from the rear - requiring strategy and a longer route for aliens. Vents, etc...
<b>Aliens:</b>
Can be placed anywhere, as is - but sieges should be obtained early on, as a way of moving through the level. Whilst very effective, when deployed the fight will be drawn to that area. Firstly from aliens trying to stop it, and marines trying to support it.
Having the flame thrower do a similar (but more covert job) would fill that 'overt' gap.
An upkeep penalty for more than X sentries could be used to limit the amount of sentries.
Limit the hydras by limiting their lifespan unless close to a crag, hive etc, or healed by gorge(suggested before by someone else).
The lerk attack should do less damage to structures, and the gorge attack should do more. Then maybe the gorge will be more usefull, and you cant use the lerk for everything.
This sounds a bit more like NS1 though :p
As per map builders placing the limits....arghhh....to much for mapping already....lets let the devs balance the game and mappers just adjust to that spec. The structures are actually large and not much will fit in a small space anyways. By the end i am sure they will not overlook structure limits. Good 'ol mine spam server crashes ring a bell?
5 Turrets set in a 5 point star pattern facing each other are very effective, anything trying to get behind one will be shot by at least 2 to 3 others. A strategic placement of structures will be the commanders responsibility to ensure the maximum life span while under attack.
Additionally a mac with a weld order should be able to be left unattended and jump from structure to structure in an area welding until order is canceled or death. (aliens have crags that do just that)
If you have electrifying a late game upgrade because marines have expanded into the map and are finding it hard to cover every area effectively - fair game.
Don't on the other hand have a useless sentry, that require lots of useless spam, and furthermore require an upgrade that electrifies everything.
Big sigh.
Although easy to 'spray and pray', it is hard to maintain a stream of flame on a moving target. This means significant damage from direct contact will work well on structures which are stationary while allowing the aliens some ability to fight back (if they don't run straight into oncoming flame).
This would definitely help solve both the difficult to take down alien structures and the OP nature of the flamethrower against players.
As for the sentries maybe upping damage slightly or making them spin up quicker maybe?
That said, (Incoming thread derailment) I think regardless of the changes we see made, we won't be able to actually have a solid feel for NS2 until Dynamic Infestation makes it into the beta. It is basically the other half of the Power Node system. Depending on how hard it is to clear, it could change the pace and feel of the game entirely. If it is anything like the developers have made it out to be, I'm not sure there is any point to balancing a game that is lacking such a major core mechanic.
Although easy to 'spray and pray', it is hard to maintain a stream of flame on a moving target. This means significant damage from direct contact will work well on structures which are stationary while allowing the aliens some ability to fight back (if they don't run straight into oncoming flame).
This would definitely help solve both the difficult to take down alien structures and the OP nature of the flamethrower against players.
As for the sentries maybe upping damage slightly or making them spin up quicker maybe?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As an alien I can:
# Build 2 Whips that effectively stop marines from entering the room.
# Build Hydras that fire at me.
# Build Crags that repair everything.
# (Soon) Build a Shift that will cloak everything (maybe)
As a marine I can:
# Build a sentry
# It can't kill anything quickly
# Can't repair automatically
# Can not cloak
# Can be attacked from one direction and be destroyed.
Pretty much sums up 'area' control for marines at the moment - it just needs to be a wall of death from one side. Beef it up big time - sorted.
Just make it so it is fairly low powered first tier, 2nd tier a lot more powerful (you also get flame thrower at this point - so this this is possibly the low armour covert option) and even more powerful/range 3rd tier. It is slow, and there is plenty of opportunity to take it down.
That means from the start, both have an equal ground in terms of taking out structures - Skulk bite/Siege Punch
It also means both can have 'area control' - **** hot sentry, hydra/whip/crag spam
I don't actually mind aliens spamming stuff, it is a good thing and looks right.
The marines should be an efficient force - everything has good purpose.
Aliens should be the infesting force that they are - it's a jungle out there! Burn that ****
As for them being too powerful. Before the GL was nerfed it would take one or two rines to wipe out an entire area with nades. Now it seems the FT allows rines to swiftly deal with hydras. Before they get to that point it is unbalanced. There should be a cool down on the gorge to prevent spamming them quickly.
The turrets are useless. Most times as a fade I can blink in the middle of three of them. Take one down before any of them target me. At that point I usually blink out as a rine will come to their aid. As a skulk I can leap in and deal damage before it targets. Most times I can do 33 to 50 percent of its health and leap out once it starts firing. Rinse and repeat. If aiming for the com or ip they are easily ignored altogether.
So to recap. Targeting is to slow. Damage is to low. Health is fine, but without the previous two issues its moot.
As for structures, GLs were great a taking them out - but not flame throwers.
You still have to fire non stop into a whip for 10seconds+ to take it down, and it does not even effect the hive.
Most people now go into the hive, get out a switch axe and hack away. In the mean time one guy with flame thrower stands by and watches for enemies, or just gets them out when they need to.
Like I have suggested, it is essentially an overpowered (not in damage) LMG that you do not have to aim.