Considering you can't actually play a real competitive game right now and it's not going to be possible to even test balance with any real input until the performance issues are figured out, continually arguing and fighting against current game mechanics being implemented, in favour for what you want from a past game is pretty pointless.
The attitude of the competitive scene is simply summed up in what Jiriki has said about inviting another player to the discussion, it's all about how NS was, there's no room for thought, after all NS is about evolution, maybe it's about time it's competitive scene followed suit and went with that evolution.
Rather than arguing you want the game balanced for a 6v6 climate, where you can run around like a bunnyhopping ninja, with fully lit maps and blah blah blah like NS1 was, you patiently await a v1.0 release; and do some testing yourself when v1.0 comes out and see how you can take the competitive community forward in NS2. Whether that be 5v5, 6v6, 8v8 etc. you need to work with what you are given, balance it how you can with what you are given. I can't stress enough that taking your anger out on developers to balance a competitive mode how you want it will not work, how you want an older game which has a completely different play style to be imposed on the new game with a completely different play style.
Heck, I know I'd still be playing competitive TF2 rather than pratting around if they kept it not far off vanilla, there's no use whining at developers to balance it. Instead, the TF2 community evolved with the updates and even imposed their own league structure which had restraints and rules etc.
Learn from the TF2 community, work what you're given with and be supportive to what you're given. Even if you despise it to the core, it's something that can be best worked with together.
Albeit though, the underlying problem with such resentment for NS2 competitively from NS1 players still stems from the lack of a game functional enough that you can experience and begin to understand how you can tackle the game in order to make a competitive environment for it. The server performance in time will get better, when it's at a level everyone can play well enough that will be the time to look at forming competitive matches and trying out your own mechanics and rules to kick start a competitive scene. More positivity, less trash talk.
EDIT: I do believe there is a modification in planning or under way in order to re-create the NS classic gameplay in NS2 which hey, I'm all for and I might even get involved in with the level design process at a later stage. I would like to see how classic will work eventually, once things are all sorted, v1 etc.
<!--quoteo(post=1838071:date=Mar 20 2011, 10:25 PM:name=gorge.ous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gorge.ous @ Mar 20 2011, 10:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838071"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Reminds me on the multiple-buildings-selection an infinite-unit-selection in SC2. When this detail reached the internet all the boards were full of self-apointed pros who doomed SC2 to be a skill-less game. Different game, different genre, same issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think SC2 is a pretty interesting attempt to leave the old mechanics behind. On some areas it did a good job, on others it kind of fell short, I think.
One big difference there is compared to NS is that Blizzard actually very visibly tried to build alternative challenges to make up for the easier macro mechanics. Every race has the new added macro mechanic, units have quite lot more activatable abilities than in SC1 and so on. The new mechanics are also quite diverse and add new strategical options. Also, the macro system itself is already quite demanding with all the balancing with build orders, resoucres and timings. I can play SC2 relatively active and I feel I'm still more than challenged by the macro mechanics.
Meanwhile NS2 seems to be built around NS1 mechanics and then just dropped the more challenging part away. Sprint is a new one, although it doesn't really get me as interested as let's say SC2 chronoboost, zerg creep spread or terran mule/scan balance.
SC2 also has quite small margins partitially due to the 'easy' mechanics. Because the basics of building up and controlling the army are nearly trivial, you can't outplay your opponent on that many areas. Since you can't outmicro, outmacro or outmultitask your opponent that easily, you need to match his army at all times to have any chance to fight your opponent. While in theory that allows more emphasis on strategy, in practise it often means memorizing awfully lot of stuff to have consistent victories. In SC you had a lot more breathing space, since there were a lot more of ways you could outplay your opponent and save the day. As a result SC1 feels a lot more fun to play in a creative off the wall way.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I didn't start this thread. And to me, OP doesn't strike as a competitive player either. Most competitive players have left these forums. I tried to ask one skilled player to reply but he said that its useless, there's no point anymore. Perhaps I'll leave aswell.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Besides the fact this thread started nearly 4months ago, and my viewpoint might have changed a little bit... Do i have to be a competitive oldskewl ns player to have the right to question mechanics? I ve around 10 years of fps history isnt that enough? (Do i have to list all my league/ladder historys and k/d ratios of various fps games for you or what?)
I dont care what any of your "skilled" players have to say - i already know most(of this small minority) want to blindly stick to the old ns1 mechanics. And i already know they dont have the imagination too see any possible improvements or alternatives... so no reason to discuss anything if your are not open to any change.
Sure we could just take the old stuff and try to recreate it in ns2, but we could as well put our energy in developing new improved alternatives to it(or cut them out if it doesnt feel right to do in ns2 - or because of the progress fps games made after those 6years?) - instead of QQing and trying to "blackmail" devs in saying we "proZ" leave, yoo! - if you dont do it! (Pll say a lot - but in the end... not so many really stand to their words - remember the CoD:MW2 boycott?)
Fact is, movement is still under heavy development and not final. (As far as i know or saw on the tracker) - The whole game is.
PS: UWE got ninelegends dux as a dev - what is he for you?
<!--quoteo(post=1838210:date=Mar 21 2011, 12:47 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Mar 21 2011, 12:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838210"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dont care what any of your "skilled" players have to say - i already know most(of this small minority) want to blindly stick to the old ns1 mechanics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You guys need to get this out of your heads. Most oldschool NS1 players are not looking for all the same mechanics, but they ARE looking for a similar experience to the first game (one that provided years of fun not a few months before moving on to the next game simply due to the shallow game play of this 'era'). Why should we expect otherwise? It is a sequel after all, and those who chose to play its predecessor competitively were some of the most dedicated to analyzing and understanding the deepest mechanics of the game. Having been there myself it's sad to have recently seen many old familiar faces around here only to have them turn and leave out of frustration from what are essentially people arguing mechanics strictly out of opinion and much less experience in the NS realm (and NS2 realm.. a lot of us have been 'playing' this for 3/4 of a year now don't forget). The depth of game play and ability to continuously learn new skills/tricks (such as air control) were huge parts in what kept people playing for so long. Without a certain depth (that might not be so obvious to some) it's just another FPS game with some RTS abilities to be briefly enjoyed by casual players who will soon move on to the next shiny thing that catches their eye.
I see people are really getting worked up over this, and that's understandable, we really had something special going with NS1. But I'm still holding on to the fact that our hands aren't at all tied to what flayra&co decides regarding these matters, namely that the Lua-source is out there for anyone who wants it. So, what this really is about, is what will be considered as 'mainstream' within this game. The fact that it will be a more casual version of NS1 doesn't bother me so, as I'm not at all affraid to split this community via the way of modding the game. Arguably NS1 should've already done this, but was forcibly held together, resulting in sometimes good public games, but often just aggravation all around.
Personally I liked how bunnyhopping was implemented in post-1.04 NS (before that it was just a bit too annoying for skulks when marines were making easy get-aways using it).
<!--quoteo(post=1838213:date=Mar 21 2011, 05:33 PM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Mar 21 2011, 05:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838213"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You guys need to get this out of your heads. Most oldschool NS1 players are not looking for all the same mechanics, but they ARE looking for a similar experience to the first game (one that provided years of fun not a few months before moving on to the next game simply due to the shallow game play of this 'era').<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> When it comes to NS2, I think most of what can be said without a more mature discussion has been said quite a few times. If the devs haven't picked up the ideas and thoughts they want, they never will.
The thing I mostly want right now is that people reading and lurking on these forums would understand that NS1 movement system is something that may be very much worth looking into. It's not for everyone, but for some people it has ended up being the very defining system when it comes to FPS gaming and I'd like to see people having an open mind and giving it a try and thought rather than just hearing that it's a silly exploit and accepting the CoD standards and controls we've got right now.
I personally am in favour of a movement system, but nothing like Bunny Hop. The Lerk is really fun, you can swirl the crosshair and bob it for momentum, as you gain more speed aiming below the horizon then you loose from looking above it.
If this sort of 'simple' but 'extra skill level' was added to Marines/Aliens, I would be all for it.
But binding a mousewheel to jump and having a movement method like Bunny Hopping is just too much imo.
<!--quoteo(post=1838221:date=Mar 21 2011, 06:59 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Mar 21 2011, 06:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838221"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But binding a mousewheel to jump and having a movement method like Bunny Hopping is just too much imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why do you keep repeating things about scripts and mousewheel? That will be the first thing to fix if there's any kind of chained jump movement ever. Quake has already fixed the whole issue in a very elegant way.
Quake also has a relatively intuitive hop system, which could offer a nice middle ground system that makes the speed gain mechanic easier while it still preserves the jumping motion, acceleration and a lot of the good and interesting stuff that creates depth into the movement.
I think I talked about the lerk in another thread; I'm very doubtful the lerk movement is going to work well as long as it can't dodge while attacking. Once the lag and FPS are improved and the veteran FPS'ers move in lerk is going to have a lot harder time doing anything except spiking from a safe position.
<!--quoteo(post=1838221:date=Mar 21 2011, 02:59 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Mar 21 2011, 02:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838221"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But binding a mousewheel to jump and having a movement method like Bunny Hopping is just too much imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Understandable and why I could care either way for bhop (although having learned it I do have respect for it). The problem however is that the driving force behind it (air control) is not in the game either and this was what defined the HL (and NS) movement system from others when you left the ground. Even TFC players made entire maps comparable to a game of minigolf (conc maps) that were essentially training courses for understanding how to move in such a way. You do not have to have bhop to have air control, and the benefits of air control are rather subtle (unless floating in 0 gravity or bhopping) but useful to those who want to spend time improving how they maneuvered instead of just "deciding to turn and use the new run feature because you have no chance if the skulk gets near you because your movement has been nerfed to make it easier for the skulk because a few new players complained they couldn't catch the marine even though the opinion of skilled players is often the opposite but doesn't matter because they must want ns1 only". Why does movement often feel slow in comparison to ns1 (a valid comparison to make) without any obvious clear cut answers why? It would in part have to do with the subtle mechanics behind the movement of the first game you would think right?
EDIT: And Bacillus makes a good point on alternatives to hl1 bhop.
To tell the truth, I bring up movement and many other things with the rest of the team because I like to know what everyone thinks of something. I am a huge competitive player and still play ns1 competitively to this day. Charlie has mentioned many times that getting the movement as close as possible to NS1 is a big priority. What you see now is obviously not a finished product so you can say the same about the movement.
All I'm saying bacillus is that any movement system that is implemented should be relatively easy to pick up. Apologise for the cliche, but easy to learn hard to master.
It depends how far uwe want to take things.
You either emphasise the team play element by making it so everyone has to look at for each other. (CS/L4D)
Or make make it so a limited few can take it to the next level in the competitive hardcore community, but risk alienating casual players. (TFC)
Even if people are not cheating, exploiting, what have you. The majority of casual gamers will get frustrated if they can't achieve something someone else can, and I really don't want to see the kinds of accusations and community breakdown that occurs from that.
I think the big problem with complex movement methods, is that the casual gamer neither understands it or wants to spend time trying to achieve that. But then this is the PC gaming scene and personally I do miss things like the above.
But like I say, I have seen too much division in regard to accusations of one kind or another.
It also is sort of like a side game in itself, in that people spend hours trying to achieve perfection and the actual game mechanics get a bit lost.
Also, I'm not saying the Lerk is perfect. But the ability to understand the movement methods is very simple and does not detract from playing the important part of the game.
Although this skulk appears to maybe have celerity, you can see the ns2 skulk is nothing in speed comparison but with the lag right now I'm glad. You can also clearly see how to get around with bhop. Even when not hopping the skulk is still significantly quicker. Not exactly proposing the skulk be quite <i>this</i> fast again, but fast skulks = no need to complain about marine backpedaling away to shoot.
Also another example: <center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/OmiaX1lpUgA"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/OmiaX1lpUgA" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
Oh and I found this in the process lol: <center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/CFdYACmUrWk"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/CFdYACmUrWk" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
Bunnyhop to get from cover to cover quick enough, transition into wallwalk, walk a bit to attract less attention and to stay in cover, hop over a gap, continue the hop and transition it into an accurate dive - all in one continuous motion without any notable stops.
All that without using any purposefully designed map elements or artificial movement mode selection and absolutely no previous planning from the player required. All controlled by the very basic FPS key layout of jump, directional keys and mouse. The only movement related thing you can't control is the jump height.
Without the air curve mechanic it would be very awkward to control the jump distances and dives because the computer controls don't do a very good job at mimicing actual body control and the finesse of having different kind of muscle strength and direction put into things. On your average FPS movement system the ceiling acrobatics would have required probably a bit of back and forth to get the jump distances right, reorienting between the jumps and even then the dive itself would have been pretty difficult to control, since you can really accurately pick the exact arc you do. Probably you'd have to practise it on a empty server first to know how the jumps go and from which spot you could land on the specific marine.
I guess that's what makes NS1 skulk work so well for me. The whole acrobatic sequence could be executed fluently on the first try on the first moment you realized it might be worth a shot. You could also have done it in quite a few different ways: add a bit of more hopping on the ceiling or do a dive from a different direction or maybe dive back to ground level and attack from there, all in one motion. Also, there was absolutely no need for the mapper to design the room to allow any specific route or dive, it was all about having the architecture there and letting the player to figure out how to use it.
I take back calling bunnyhopping skulks/rines bunnyhopping ninjas. They're more like salmon.
Bunnyhopping in Quake/GoldSrc was an unwanted biproduct of movement code and a player exploit. If the team want you to go that fast, I think they'll implement skulk speed going that fast.
Again though, it's waiting to play the game at full experience, with the performance being right in order to ascertain the best speed.
If you never learned bhop, or at the least air control in hl1, then you simply don't get what you don't get. I find an odd scarcity of people coming in here boasting "I learned bhop/air control and find it very unfair I don't want to see it again" vs "I don't like bhop (failure to mention never learning it)". See what I'm getting at? Those who learned and informed themselves don't seem to mind. If anything they often encourage it. To them it added both depth and a system which felt as if they were fighting for every extra inch of distance between hops and some control of where they were going instead of 'I'll let the game decide exactly where I land when I jump with no control on my part". What happened to rewarding skilled players for being experienced at a <i>video game</i>? Without anything like this they often learn the game and move onto the next thing much sooner than they might have... usually with an unlock system and slow/minimal dodging capabilities that cater specifically to the new player.
<!--quoteo(post=1838376:date=Mar 22 2011, 09:28 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Mar 22 2011, 09:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838376"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunnyhopping in Quake/GoldSrc was an unwanted biproduct of movement code and a player exploit. If the team want you to go that fast, I think they'll implement skulk speed going that fast.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well for me it's not only about speed, it's about movement, fun, freedom, control, creativity, striving to improve and learn new things.
If people don't want to learn air control or bhop then fine, but at least let those who like it enjoy those aspects. :)
I never really had much control over bhop in NS1, but I was glad it was there. I really don't like the ultra slow backward movement speed in NS2.
There's a reason we don't all play the same games forever, when there's a limit to what you can do there comes a point where you've done everything in the game. Why keep playing?
The movement in NS1 always allowed room for improvement (well, before marine movement was gimped).
Yes I guess it was unfair for new players but it quickly taught them what not to do. Don't charge directly into marines, and always keep a look out for skulks.
I see both sides of the argument, pluses and minuses, but at least bunny hopping type movement offers some variety. If you take it out and are limited to walking/crouching/jumping then it really cuts down on the possibilities of gameplay.
Out of all the excellent players I used to play with in ns1, no one ever thought bunny hopping was unfair. Nor did they spend all their time bunny hopping. A good backwards-bhopping marine was very difficult to deal with but usually only gave an edge in situations where a marine should have killed a skulk anyway. It was never unpredictable.
Since UWE plans to release an xbox version of ns2 - ns1 bhop wont happen. (Just look at the jobs page "Console experience (we'll probably be moving to the 360 after v1.0)")
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Out of all the excellent players I used to play with in ns1, no one ever thought bunny hopping was unfair. Nor did they spend all their time bunny hopping. A good backwards-bhopping marine was very difficult to deal with but usually only gave an edge in situations where a marine should have killed a skulk anyway. It was never unpredictable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats the best argument for <b><u>and against</u></b> it - since it was very situational anyways, why keep it? Bhopping Marines destroy the atmosphere(i hate this mass jump sounds *hughhh* *hughh* *hughh* in games like Quake or UT + NS is still way slower and different than these games to make it really usefull) only for a little feature that might be sometimes usefull but usually is not. (at least in ns for anything else then moving faster from place a to b ... we got sprint(and fly, blink, leap, belly slide etc) for that)
Also, just because it isnt in vanilla doesnt mean that it cant be done... you can still make a "pro" mod i guess
I think people need to remember that marines could not bunny hop like aliens in NS1, only uphill (or a crouching jump to standing jump double jump). Bunny hopping as alien allowed you to blend movement and attacking into one, it was more then just pressing W and Mouse1. It took what would have been a very ordinary game with skulks just waiting around corners and ambushing as the norm, and gave them a lot of other options to close the gap with a marine, creating a much more interesting early game. NS1 was a fast paced game, and IMO NS2 should largely follow that.
As far as the 360 version killing bunny hopping, that is honestly just plain false i think. I believe valve did an experiment where they mixed console players with PC, and it failed horribly. The game would need significant changes to be a console title, that is just one more thing that could be disabled.
we should turn this thread into a poll if possible. this is one topic where it would be interesting to see who likes it how it is or who would like the backpedaling to be faster. i think the game would feel better if it was faster. it just feels incredibly unnatural.
<!--quoteo(post=1838102:date=Mar 20 2011, 04:10 PM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Mar 20 2011, 04:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838102"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you see two skulks, and your response is to turn and run, you're a bad player and will just get eaten. Horrible example.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm pretty sure a running Marine is faster, or as fast as a Skulk. How is that a horrible example? Do you realize how many times I've survived because I deduced that I would lose the engagement? Why buy another shotgun when I can just huff it back to base (which takes all of twenty seconds) and heal up and re-arm?
*Edit*
I just tested it. A running Marine is as fast as a Skulk is. If I see you, and run efficiently, I _WILL_ make it back to base alive provided you don't parasite me to death. I've defeated your argument by showing my example is, in fact, NOT horrible.
Try not to be so condescending because it makes people not want to consider your point of view. You said I was a bad player for using a tactic you weren't familiar with. Maybe instead of whining about the back-pedal speed because you can't be m@d 1337 and kite 50 Skulks to death, you should be good at judging when you're going to lose and run and LIVE.
Jumping around in circle does take some skill. But it looks so stupid it completely destroys the game immersion. I might be okay with it in the game, if they can tweak the animation so it doesn't look so retarded (next to impossible task).
That's pretty much the main reason I would prefer faster back paddling speed, but limit the hopping frequency.
<!--quoteo(post=1838447:date=Mar 23 2011, 12:51 AM:name=danshyu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (danshyu @ Mar 23 2011, 12:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838447"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Jumping around in circle does take some skill. But it looks so stupid it completely destroys the game immersion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also, this. This kind of nonsense was completely excusable back when video games weren't able to immerse the player with incredible graphics, photo-realistic textures, and smooth animation. Now we have the technology to make a SKILL based shooter that doesn't involve our avatars hopping around the room like a bunch of idiots. Positioning, setup (planning), reinforcements, and the ability to judge the importance of taking a risk or not can make an equally rewarding, and exciting SKILL based shooting experience. NS2 is well on its way of achieving this now.
Comments
The attitude of the competitive scene is simply summed up in what Jiriki has said about inviting another player to the discussion, it's all about how NS was, there's no room for thought, after all NS is about evolution, maybe it's about time it's competitive scene followed suit and went with that evolution.
Rather than arguing you want the game balanced for a 6v6 climate, where you can run around like a bunnyhopping ninja, with fully lit maps and blah blah blah like NS1 was, you patiently await a v1.0 release; and do some testing yourself when v1.0 comes out and see how you can take the competitive community forward in NS2. Whether that be 5v5, 6v6, 8v8 etc. you need to work with what you are given, balance it how you can with what you are given. I can't stress enough that taking your anger out on developers to balance a competitive mode how you want it will not work, how you want an older game which has a completely different play style to be imposed on the new game with a completely different play style.
Heck, I know I'd still be playing competitive TF2 rather than pratting around if they kept it not far off vanilla, there's no use whining at developers to balance it. Instead, the TF2 community evolved with the updates and even imposed their own league structure which had restraints and rules etc.
Learn from the TF2 community, work what you're given with and be supportive to what you're given. Even if you despise it to the core, it's something that can be best worked with together.
Albeit though, the underlying problem with such resentment for NS2 competitively from NS1 players still stems from the lack of a game functional enough that you can experience and begin to understand how you can tackle the game in order to make a competitive environment for it. The server performance in time will get better, when it's at a level everyone can play well enough that will be the time to look at forming competitive matches and trying out your own mechanics and rules to kick start a competitive scene. More positivity, less trash talk.
EDIT: I do believe there is a modification in planning or under way in order to re-create the NS classic gameplay in NS2 which hey, I'm all for and I might even get involved in with the level design process at a later stage. I would like to see how classic will work eventually, once things are all sorted, v1 etc.
I think SC2 is a pretty interesting attempt to leave the old mechanics behind. On some areas it did a good job, on others it kind of fell short, I think.
One big difference there is compared to NS is that Blizzard actually very visibly tried to build alternative challenges to make up for the easier macro mechanics. Every race has the new added macro mechanic, units have quite lot more activatable abilities than in SC1 and so on. The new mechanics are also quite diverse and add new strategical options. Also, the macro system itself is already quite demanding with all the balancing with build orders, resoucres and timings. I can play SC2 relatively active and I feel I'm still more than challenged by the macro mechanics.
Meanwhile NS2 seems to be built around NS1 mechanics and then just dropped the more challenging part away. Sprint is a new one, although it doesn't really get me as interested as let's say SC2 chronoboost, zerg creep spread or terran mule/scan balance.
SC2 also has quite small margins partitially due to the 'easy' mechanics. Because the basics of building up and controlling the army are nearly trivial, you can't outplay your opponent on that many areas. Since you can't outmicro, outmacro or outmultitask your opponent that easily, you need to match his army at all times to have any chance to fight your opponent. While in theory that allows more emphasis on strategy, in practise it often means memorizing awfully lot of stuff to have consistent victories. In SC you had a lot more breathing space, since there were a lot more of ways you could outplay your opponent and save the day. As a result SC1 feels a lot more fun to play in a creative off the wall way.
Besides the fact this thread started nearly 4months ago, and my viewpoint might have changed a little bit...
Do i have to be a competitive oldskewl ns player to have the right to question mechanics? I ve around 10 years of fps history isnt that enough? (Do i have to list all my league/ladder historys and k/d ratios of various fps games for you or what?)
I dont care what any of your "skilled" players have to say - i already know most(of this small minority) want to blindly stick to the old ns1 mechanics. And i already know they dont have the imagination too see any possible improvements or alternatives... so no reason to discuss anything if your are not open to any change.
Sure we could just take the old stuff and try to recreate it in ns2, but we could as well put our energy in developing new improved alternatives to it(or cut them out if it doesnt feel right to do in ns2 - or because of the progress fps games made after those 6years?) - instead of QQing and trying to "blackmail" devs in saying we "proZ" leave, yoo! - if you dont do it!
(Pll say a lot - but in the end... not so many really stand to their words - remember the CoD:MW2 boycott?)
Fact is, movement is still under heavy development and not final. (As far as i know or saw on the tracker)
- The whole game is.
PS: UWE got ninelegends dux as a dev - what is he for you?
You guys need to get this out of your heads. Most oldschool NS1 players are not looking for all the same mechanics, but they ARE looking for a similar experience to the first game (one that provided years of fun not a few months before moving on to the next game simply due to the shallow game play of this 'era'). Why should we expect otherwise? It is a sequel after all, and those who chose to play its predecessor competitively were some of the most dedicated to analyzing and understanding the deepest mechanics of the game. Having been there myself it's sad to have recently seen many old familiar faces around here only to have them turn and leave out of frustration from what are essentially people arguing mechanics strictly out of opinion and much less experience in the NS realm (and NS2 realm.. a lot of us have been 'playing' this for 3/4 of a year now don't forget). The depth of game play and ability to continuously learn new skills/tricks (such as air control) were huge parts in what kept people playing for so long. Without a certain depth (that might not be so obvious to some) it's just another FPS game with some RTS abilities to be briefly enjoyed by casual players who will soon move on to the next shiny thing that catches their eye.
Personally I liked how bunnyhopping was implemented in post-1.04 NS (before that it was just a bit too annoying for skulks when marines were making easy get-aways using it).
When it comes to NS2, I think most of what can be said without a more mature discussion has been said quite a few times. If the devs haven't picked up the ideas and thoughts they want, they never will.
The thing I mostly want right now is that people reading and lurking on these forums would understand that NS1 movement system is something that may be very much worth looking into. It's not for everyone, but for some people it has ended up being the very defining system when it comes to FPS gaming and I'd like to see people having an open mind and giving it a try and thought rather than just hearing that it's a silly exploit and accepting the CoD standards and controls we've got right now.
If this sort of 'simple' but 'extra skill level' was added to Marines/Aliens, I would be all for it.
But binding a mousewheel to jump and having a movement method like Bunny Hopping is just too much imo.
Why do you keep repeating things about scripts and mousewheel? That will be the first thing to fix if there's any kind of chained jump movement ever. Quake has already fixed the whole issue in a very elegant way.
Quake also has a relatively intuitive hop system, which could offer a nice middle ground system that makes the speed gain mechanic easier while it still preserves the jumping motion, acceleration and a lot of the good and interesting stuff that creates depth into the movement.
I think I talked about the lerk in another thread; I'm very doubtful the lerk movement is going to work well as long as it can't dodge while attacking. Once the lag and FPS are improved and the veteran FPS'ers move in lerk is going to have a lot harder time doing anything except spiking from a safe position.
Understandable and why I could care either way for bhop (although having learned it I do have respect for it). The problem however is that the driving force behind it (air control) is not in the game either and this was what defined the HL (and NS) movement system from others when you left the ground. Even TFC players made entire maps comparable to a game of minigolf (conc maps) that were essentially training courses for understanding how to move in such a way. You do not have to have bhop to have air control, and the benefits of air control are rather subtle (unless floating in 0 gravity or bhopping) but useful to those who want to spend time improving how they maneuvered instead of just "deciding to turn and use the new run feature because you have no chance if the skulk gets near you because your movement has been nerfed to make it easier for the skulk because a few new players complained they couldn't catch the marine even though the opinion of skilled players is often the opposite but doesn't matter because they must want ns1 only". Why does movement often feel slow in comparison to ns1 (a valid comparison to make) without any obvious clear cut answers why? It would in part have to do with the subtle mechanics behind the movement of the first game you would think right?
EDIT: And Bacillus makes a good point on alternatives to hl1 bhop.
Hey!
To tell the truth, I bring up movement and many other things with the rest of the team because I like to know what everyone thinks of something. I am a huge competitive player and still play ns1 competitively to this day. Charlie has mentioned many times that getting the movement as close as possible to NS1 is a big priority. What you see now is obviously not a finished product so you can say the same about the movement.
The end.
It depends how far uwe want to take things.
You either emphasise the team play element by making it so everyone has to look at for each other. (CS/L4D)
Or make make it so a limited few can take it to the next level in the competitive hardcore community, but risk alienating casual players. (TFC)
Even if people are not cheating, exploiting, what have you. The majority of casual gamers will get frustrated if they can't achieve something someone else can, and I really don't want to see the kinds of accusations and community breakdown that occurs from that.
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I think the big problem with complex movement methods, is that the casual gamer neither understands it or wants to spend time trying to achieve that. But then this is the PC gaming scene and personally I do miss things like the above.
But like I say, I have seen too much division in regard to accusations of one kind or another.
It also is sort of like a side game in itself, in that people spend hours trying to achieve perfection and the actual game mechanics get a bit lost.
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Also, I'm not saying the Lerk is perfect. But the ability to understand the movement methods is very simple and does not detract from playing the important part of the game.
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Although this skulk appears to maybe have celerity, you can see the ns2 skulk is nothing in speed comparison but with the lag right now I'm glad. You can also clearly see how to get around with bhop. Even when not hopping the skulk is still significantly quicker. Not exactly proposing the skulk be quite <i>this</i> fast again, but fast skulks = no need to complain about marine backpedaling away to shoot.
Also another example:
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Oh and I found this in the process lol:
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It was a great feeling :)
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In addition to what dux posted, I think this one demonstrates a bit on how fluently the whole skulk movement blends together.
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Bunnyhop to get from cover to cover quick enough, transition into wallwalk, walk a bit to attract less attention and to stay in cover, hop over a gap, continue the hop and transition it into an accurate dive - all in one continuous motion without any notable stops.
All that without using any purposefully designed map elements or artificial movement mode selection and absolutely no previous planning from the player required. All controlled by the very basic FPS key layout of jump, directional keys and mouse. The only movement related thing you can't control is the jump height.
Without the air curve mechanic it would be very awkward to control the jump distances and dives because the computer controls don't do a very good job at mimicing actual body control and the finesse of having different kind of muscle strength and direction put into things. On your average FPS movement system the ceiling acrobatics would have required probably a bit of back and forth to get the jump distances right, reorienting between the jumps and even then the dive itself would have been pretty difficult to control, since you can really accurately pick the exact arc you do. Probably you'd have to practise it on a empty server first to know how the jumps go and from which spot you could land on the specific marine.
I guess that's what makes NS1 skulk work so well for me. The whole acrobatic sequence could be executed fluently on the first try on the first moment you realized it might be worth a shot. You could also have done it in quite a few different ways: add a bit of more hopping on the ceiling or do a dive from a different direction or maybe dive back to ground level and attack from there, all in one motion. Also, there was absolutely no need for the mapper to design the room to allow any specific route or dive, it was all about having the architecture there and letting the player to figure out how to use it.
Bunnyhopping in Quake/GoldSrc was an unwanted biproduct of movement code and a player exploit. If the team want you to go that fast, I think they'll implement skulk speed going that fast.
Again though, it's waiting to play the game at full experience, with the performance being right in order to ascertain the best speed.
unplanned biproduct.
If you never learned bhop, or at the least air control in hl1, then you simply don't get what you don't get. I find an odd scarcity of people coming in here boasting "I learned bhop/air control and find it very unfair I don't want to see it again" vs "I don't like bhop (failure to mention never learning it)". See what I'm getting at? Those who learned and informed themselves don't seem to mind. If anything they often encourage it. To them it added both depth and a system which felt as if they were fighting for every extra inch of distance between hops and some control of where they were going instead of 'I'll let the game decide exactly where I land when I jump with no control on my part". What happened to rewarding skilled players for being experienced at a <i>video game</i>? Without anything like this they often learn the game and move onto the next thing much sooner than they might have... usually with an unlock system and slow/minimal dodging capabilities that cater specifically to the new player.
Well for me it's not only about speed, it's about movement, fun, freedom, control, creativity, striving to improve and learn new things.
If people don't want to learn air control or bhop then fine, but at least let those who like it enjoy those aspects. :)
There's a reason we don't all play the same games forever, when there's a limit to what you can do there comes a point where you've done everything in the game. Why keep playing?
The movement in NS1 always allowed room for improvement (well, before marine movement was gimped).
Yes I guess it was unfair for new players but it quickly taught them what not to do. Don't charge directly into marines, and always keep a look out for skulks.
I see both sides of the argument, pluses and minuses, but at least bunny hopping type movement offers some variety. If you take it out and are limited to walking/crouching/jumping then it really cuts down on the possibilities of gameplay.
Out of all the excellent players I used to play with in ns1, no one ever thought bunny hopping was unfair. Nor did they spend all their time bunny hopping. A good backwards-bhopping marine was very difficult to deal with but usually only gave an edge in situations where a marine should have killed a skulk anyway. It was never unpredictable.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Out of all the excellent players I used to play with in ns1, no one ever thought bunny hopping was unfair. Nor did they spend all their time bunny hopping. A good backwards-bhopping marine was very difficult to deal with but usually only gave an edge in situations where a marine should have killed a skulk anyway. It was never unpredictable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats the best argument for <b><u>and against</u></b> it - since it was very situational anyways, why keep it? Bhopping Marines destroy the atmosphere(i hate this mass jump sounds *hughhh* *hughh* *hughh* in games like Quake or UT + NS is still way slower and different than these games to make it really usefull) only for a little feature that might be sometimes usefull but usually is not. (at least in ns for anything else then moving faster from place a to b ... we got sprint(and fly, blink, leap, belly slide etc) for that)
Also, just because it isnt in vanilla doesnt mean that it cant be done... you can still make a "pro" mod i guess
As far as the 360 version killing bunny hopping, that is honestly just plain false i think. I believe valve did an experiment where they mixed console players with PC, and it failed horribly. The game would need significant changes to be a console title, that is just one more thing that could be disabled.
I'm pretty sure a running Marine is faster, or as fast as a Skulk. How is that a horrible example? Do you realize how many times I've survived because I deduced that I would lose the engagement? Why buy another shotgun when I can just huff it back to base (which takes all of twenty seconds) and heal up and re-arm?
*Edit*
I just tested it. A running Marine is as fast as a Skulk is. If I see you, and run efficiently, I _WILL_ make it back to base alive provided you don't parasite me to death. I've defeated your argument by showing my example is, in fact, NOT horrible.
Try not to be so condescending because it makes people not want to consider your point of view. You said I was a bad player for using a tactic you weren't familiar with. Maybe instead of whining about the back-pedal speed because you can't be m@d 1337 and kite 50 Skulks to death, you should be good at judging when you're going to lose and run and LIVE.
That's pretty much the main reason I would prefer faster back paddling speed, but limit the hopping frequency.
Also, this. This kind of nonsense was completely excusable back when video games weren't able to immerse the player with incredible graphics, photo-realistic textures, and smooth animation. Now we have the technology to make a SKILL based shooter that doesn't involve our avatars hopping around the room like a bunch of idiots. Positioning, setup (planning), reinforcements, and the ability to judge the importance of taking a risk or not can make an equally rewarding, and exciting SKILL based shooting experience. NS2 is well on its way of achieving this now.