Ask a TSA Ninja
Silverwing
bulletsponge Join Date: 2003-11-23 Member: 23395Members, Constellation
bulletsponge Join Date: 2003-11-23 Member: 23395Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Where is the PG?</div>Yesterday, during an epic battle on Rockdown, I snuck into Alien Start as a marine. I sat there for a bit, watching skulks run out and talking to the commander. I told him where I was and his response was: What can I do? I suggested jokingly that he drop me a PG but as we know, that isn't a feature in NS2.
This got me thinking. Why even try to ninja it? That was one of the most thrilling experiences in NS but it is completely absent in NS2. The best suggestion I could come up with is to drop turrets but that seems just silly.
Any ideas?
On a slightly related note: 1 Marine with a shotgun (not sure if it was w1,2 or 3) will do something like 50% damage to a Hive Mass... THAT might be a reason to ninja, but only in pairs =)
This got me thinking. Why even try to ninja it? That was one of the most thrilling experiences in NS but it is completely absent in NS2. The best suggestion I could come up with is to drop turrets but that seems just silly.
Any ideas?
On a slightly related note: 1 Marine with a shotgun (not sure if it was w1,2 or 3) will do something like 50% damage to a Hive Mass... THAT might be a reason to ninja, but only in pairs =)
Comments
Building turrets does not seem that bad. build 3-4, only complete them to 99% and then finish them all at once. That in the hiveroom might put the alien team in some serious trouble.
That beeing said, a lone marine in the hive should not be a game ender.
I disagree. It's a cunning, high risk move that can be guarded against; it should be rewarded accordingly.
What he said.
Besides the alien commander if he's paying any attention to the mini map will see the red dot in the hive room and can alert the aliens. Other aliens respawning should be aware of their surroundings.
This being said a lone marine in a hive room that is some how evading the detection of enemy forces without cheating (Taking advantage of a glitch) should be rewarded accordingly. Not entirely a game ender.... but yeah he can probably get some serious damage done, enough to have the marine team rush and open fire to finish off the hive at the very least.
They did mention to prevent marines from building in the main hive though, hence the reason there is no powernode
agreed
I disagree, if you're talking about rushing the hive with shotties, then yes, thats a high risk move. 1 lone marine rambo-ing around the game isn't my definition of a 'cunning' high risk-move.
Hell I do that just when I'm tired of playing/about to quit/feeling stupid.
If one marine is a huge danger for the aliens then this game will be over fast.
No. It's just one marine-- the definition of low risk. Not only that, but it is the <i>lowest possible risk</i> next to one MAC. Cunning and clever, but this is cheap.
Now, getting the entire marine team in a hive is the definition of high risk. Bring all the workers and recycle base and that's the highest risk, an all-in.
This lowest possible risk hive attack should be somewhat more effective than fighting in the rest of the map (a marine can kill super vulnerable targets like tech buildings, upgrading builds(!), spawner eggs, evolving eggs, and spawn camp startled spawning skulks), but it shouldn't be instant end game.
Or rather, it shouldn't be instant game over until deep mid-game, like Tier 2.5 or Tier 2.66 if I want to be silly with my name conventions. Definitely not in the early game.
Otherwise the game is way too much rocket tag in my opinion.
Phase gates are retarded and not in the endearing way (For some reason they had higher than average hp with 2000+, and only cost 15 resources... LOL balance?). I'm guessing marine sprint replaces phase gates. If that's true, alright. It seems to make sense. NS1 marines got phase gates to offset their slower running speed. If it's not true, I couldn't care less. Phase gates are gone and I'm happy.
Now, a mid-game or late-game tech which could spell game over if just a single alien or marine got into enemy base and was left alone for 30 seconds... That is something exciting and dramatic. But that's icing on the top. It won't magically solve a thoroughly terrible game (and will probably just make a terrible game more mental), but it could make a feature complete game with a dynamic meta-game into something a bit more intense (and thus good).
Phase gates must be changed from NS1 to be weaker, and should only be implemented when NS2's tech trees are complete and the most obvious imbalances fixed. So probably after release. It could work as a version 1.1 or version 1.2 patch, if done correctly (and weaker than NS1). I'm still wary though.
Then a lone gorge should be able to swallow a CC whole, if that's your definition of "cunning".
100% correct. Taking this away takes away from variety and strategy, but in it's defense is was never in this game.. but adding it in would make things far more interesting and create more choices/diversity to constantly keep the game fresh.
People aren't understanding why this would be high risk. Everyone knows the Marines are at a disadvantage early game and their strength comes from the end game, if they last, now if a commander WASTE resources on something like this, and the aliens counter it and end it fast, it puts the marines at a massive disadvantage allowing the aliens to pretty much clean up the rest of the marines. I don't think people understand how important every single move and choice the marines early game decisions are, one little mistake and its game over.
<!--quoteo(post=1818550:date=Dec 22 2010, 05:34 PM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Dec 22 2010, 05:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818550"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then a lone gorge should be able to swallow a CC whole, if that's your definition of "cunning".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Apparently you haven't played alpha/beta long enough to witness this, and I have MULTIPLE times.
Well, yesterday I was playing on a server where the marines build sentries and armoury inside the main hive. Don't know if this is like it is or they just need to add the restriction.
YMMD :-)
As a future feature, it's not in right now. My bad, I forgot to note it as a feature to be added
If the willingness of one person to get killed (which is a fairly minimal risk considering you can just respawn) can be sufficient to end the game, why bother with teams at all?
It is low risk in all possible ways, it costs almost nothing, the marine in question can lose at most a gun and a minute of walking time, the team can lose even less if it fails.
You are rewarding people for being stupid. You are sacrificing a team to reward one player doing something that is not likely to help.
The essence of team play is division of labour, everyone does something important, if half the team is off doing important things away from the hive, they are in no way to blame if the hive is attacked, so they do not 'deserve' to lose anything.
The idea is very flawed.
Just as skulk rushes are exploited. You might argue that "that's because the alien team is working in tandem so they should be rewarded", how exactly is that fair for the marine team, because the game has clearly given them an opening in the early minutes of the game? It doesn't have to be fair. When a skulk rush fails you give marines an opportunity to expand and increase their power base, even though there has been no investment (and thus loss) in resources.
Ninja'ing does not involve one player - at the most pessimistic interpretation it involves two players: the ninja and the commander; at an optimistic interpretation it involves the whole team, for doing their thing around the map, intentionally or unintentionally keeping the aliens at bay and keeping them distracted.
Where regular marine play may be to amass military might, take territory, and push forward forcefully (like the US), this would be the NS equivalent of 'sabotage and espionage' (the volition of smaller nations). You might call it dirty, but I call it cunning.
I think you are falsely specifying here.
Investment and risk are synonyms. The risk is high from the point of view of one player (as if players didn't respawn, which they do). But it's just one player. NS2 is a team game in case you forgot. There's a whole team to pick the slack of one ninja. Even if that one ninja fails, the loss is invisible compared to losing a resource harvester or tech expansion.
Zero upgrade zero equipment marines in hives can still do higher than average damage. Killing tech structures, upgrading structures, spawner eggs, evolving eggs, spawn camping startled skulks. The same goes for equally for zero upgrade zero equipment skulks in marine bases.
Now, if that one player had a flamethrower or fade, that's a bigger risk. It should have more rewards. If that one player got 50 carbon worth of Super Mega Ninja buildings dropped (something like a phase gate or alien equivalent), those 50 carbon should have a high reward to match their high risk.
But a single player running into the enemy base ending the game at the start of the game with no equipment, no upgrades, no Drifters/MACs, and no commander buildings? No. That is a terrible idea. I don't think that's what you were saying, I'm being rigorous.
The big thing to me is how far up the tech tree and how cost effective the Ninja Buildings are. I don't want anything below Tier 2. If I want to be silly with my name convention, Tier 2.5 is good. It shouldn't be the last possible tech, though. Also, it needs to be vulnerable (meaning high/normal cost, low HP). NS1 phase gates had an enormous amount of HP, higher than average. Nydus worms in both SC2 and SC1 had, like 100. In NS terms, that's two marines of HP or three skulks of HP or half of one senty turret's HP. Crushable. If the enemy team is very aware, they should absolutely thrash any single Ninja Building attempt, meaning you must drop two Ninja Buildings in two distant locations to get any where against a worthy enemy team.
A phase gate rush should be very difficult to pull off. It shouldn't be "Comm, drop me 10 res of mines to hard counter 90% of all attacks on this ninja building". It should be "Holy, ###### there's a marine close to the canal!" because the thing only has 300 NS2 hp and dies if a marine sneezes within 50 feet. It should be crushable if the <b>entire ninja team</b> is not very careful.
Otherwise the game is too much rocket tag in my opinion. "LOL, one skulk got in base, gg". I don't like that, I really don't like that. That's just my opinion though. If a lot of people want 1 minute games on average, then NS2 should have 1 minute games on average.
*Note that 'risk' (noun) by definition is "chance taken". An investment is certainly a chance taken. It just depends how free with language you are. But that's all semantics.
I'll just go back to what I said before. It's sneaky, it's clever, it's cunning. It can be guarded against. It has a high risk of failure. It should be well-rewarded.
Squad spawning.
If anyone has tried it (it does work but you get a crazy sound bug), drop an obs as a marine commander, get the transponder upgrade technology, upgrade your infantry portals with transponders, and use it on the back of the IP. You will spawn to the location of a marine. This is what will be replacing phasegates.
The transponder has been pretty well known ever since the IP reveal. I'm really saddened by everyone in this thread with no one really knowing about this :(
Well, as stated, two marines with shotguns can take a hive down fairly quickly so by the time the squad starts arriving, it is moot. Sure, everyone is behind enemy lines but every alien on the map knows where they are...
*Note that 'risk' (noun) by definition is "chance taken". An investment is certainly a chance taken. It just depends how free with language you are. But that's all semantics.
I'll just go back to what I said before. It's sneaky, it's clever, it's cunning. It can be guarded against. It has a high risk of failure. It should be well-rewarded.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In any case, the risk or investment risk or investment of a single zero upgrade zero equipment zero building support zero drifter/MAC support player rushing into enemy base is the lowest possible of all base rushes in NS2 (perhaps beaten by a single Tier 0 drifter/MAC instead of a player).
No matter what terminology used, there is almost no cost associated with such a choice, and there is little expected pain in case of failure. Thus, since there is almost zero cost, there should be little reward.
In any case, a single zero upgrade zero equipment zero building support zero drifter/MAC support player rushing into enemy base is already quite powerful. They can kill tech structures, upgrading structures, spawner eggs, evolving eggs, vulnerable lifeforms, and spawn camp startled skulks. This is quite a list of additional offensive power available to any player rushing into enemy base. Enough in my opinion.
Now, if the one player had a flamethrower or a fade, or the commander dropped 50 resources of buildings, or if there were five builder bots supporting, or if commander dropped 50 resources of ammo packs and med packs, or if there were five players instead of just one, there would be some cost and visible loss in case of failure. Thus, this more expensive choice should be more effective.
If the Super Ninja Building cost 50 resources and research time and research resources and only had 300 hp, that's an actual start up cost and failure cost is high. Thus, the Super Ninja Building should have potential for high efficiency, even win games just by itself.
Do you disagree?
I only said cost should relate to reward. Not once did I say hugely obscene resource expenditures should be allowed. In fact, I have spoken on these forums against such mistakes made in NS1 multiple times. The most obvious failure is the NS1 fade, costing 50 resources and having no weakness (Just being a "super skulk" as we say). I am absolutely against the fade being transported untouched into NS2, as it was. Fade health has been reduced from 600 to 500 in build 160, but the cost remains 50 plasma.
You can run a search for posts by me with the word "fade" in them and they'll all probably be arguments against exactly what you (Harimau) are saying I believe in.
You are putting words in my mouth. Stop being recalcitrant. Tell me what you disagree with instead of "my philosophy". Otherwise, I will assume you agree with me completely and can only offer feeble resistance to my arguments by either intentionally lying or unintentionally reaching for any counter argument, logically valid or not. You may not like that I am right and you are wrong, but that changes nothing. Respond with a logically consistent counter argument or accept defeat.
Squad spawning.
If anyone has tried it (it does work but you get a crazy sound bug), drop an obs as a marine commander, get the transponder upgrade technology, upgrade your infantry portals with transponders, and use it on the back of the IP. You will spawn to the location of a marine. This is what will be replacing phasegates.
The transponder has been pretty well known ever since the IP reveal. I'm really saddened by everyone in this thread with no one really knowing about this :(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I had no clue these actually worked. So there is a not-so-obvious "button" you have to press on the IP after the upgrade is completed? How does it determine which squad/marine you are teleported to? Is there any obvious indication from a marine perspective that the IP is upgraded?