<!--quoteo(post=1820951:date=Jan 2 2011, 06:04 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Jan 2 2011, 06:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820951"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href="http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3408/the_cabal_valves_design_process_.php" target="_blank">http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3408...gn_process_.php</a> First few paragraphs. In 98 Half-Life was just amazing. (the one they released after working more on it)
With respect to CS:S and balance, they all play both sides anyway so what's the point? Double elites are underused and with dynamic pricing they were cheap enough to get used in common strategies. But it's all longer story anyway - during porting CS to Source from HL2 they lost fun factor somewhere.
<!--quoteo(post=1820875:date=Jan 1 2011, 11:19 PM:name=Drfuzzy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Drfuzzy @ Jan 1 2011, 11:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820875"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fat people can't even play portal. Not even Gabe himself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1820955:date=Jan 2 2011, 07:30 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Crispy @ Jan 2 2011, 07:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820955"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry, I should have specified I wanted to play TF2 vanilla <i>with other people</i>!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Is there a plugin for that? There probably is. If not, there should be. Either way, I suspect that servers that would run it would be chronically underpopulated. I suspect that the vast majority of TF2 players have a series of additions and changes since vanilla they don't like, but that they'll pick "all of them" if the only alternative is "none of them." Habitual medic players will probably argue that the Blutsauger adds crucial survivability to an otherwise mercilessly hunted class, while other people will never want to be without their Sandvich again. And so on and so forth.
<!--quoteo(post=1821176:date=Jan 3 2011, 04:07 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Jan 3 2011, 04:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821176"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can create your own server, with a plugin and a script to restrict weapons. So effectively you can set up TF2 vanilla by just restricting items.
The Euro TF2 League restricts everything via a script, but it is possible to get round that if you know how.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yes I think you kinda proved my point: that you have to change the game to get this result. In general if it's not supported by the devs, then it's not going to get much community support. The path of least resistance generally wins out.
I didn't actually mind the upgrades when they were considered; before they began superceding the existing weapons outright, or were ill-fitting the the class' original role. For instance; why would a Soldier not carry the Pickaxe? It's a complete no-brainer because the times when a Soldier has to resort to melee are when he's out of ammo for both RL and Shotty, and most likely to be taking more damage than he can deal out. And giving the Demoman increased explosive damage resistance and a big stupid sword + charge completely removed his vulnerability to close range rushes, which was the main thing keeping him balanced. I still believe TF2 vanilla to be one of the best examples of game balance in history, but now it's a shadow of its former self. It's the only multiplayer game I've bought from Valve that in my eyes has actually depreciated in value as all the new free content has been added.
<!--quoteo(post=1821035:date=Jan 3 2011, 02:47 AM:name=MOOtant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MOOtant @ Jan 3 2011, 02:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821035"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With respect to CS:S and balance, they all play both sides anyway so what's the point? Double elites are underused and with dynamic pricing they were cheap enough to get used in common strategies. But it's all longer story anyway - during porting CS to Source from HL2 they lost fun factor somewhere.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The point is that if Duals are underused they should be improved or reduced in price. The simplest solution to the very few weapons that were UP is not to throw the rest of the game's balance into constant flux.
I suspect Valve were wondering if they could use raw userdata to balance a game's economy <i>without any manual interpretation</i>. The answer is 'no, because players have many differing behaviours'. There are those who choose an optimal strategy, those who enjoy variety/roleplaying, those who enjoy deliberately making things difficult for themselves, those who find a certain weapon easier to use, even though they can never output the same damage as another weapon, etc.. In a game like CS, the first group is in the vast majority, so all this serves to do is create a cycle where the optimal strategy is in constant flux (because most people are using the best guns, and these 'best guns' will constantly change), which means this mechanic is having a much greater influence on wins/losses than it should do versus player skill and teamwork. Imagine if you threw dynamic pricing into an RTS; that's right: utter chaos. You need to consider why players are producing the information they are before acting on it; whether its user-submitted feedback or precise user-generated data it's still subject to <i>subjective</i> user behaviour.
<!--quoteo(post=1821194:date=Jan 3 2011, 11:50 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Crispy @ Jan 3 2011, 11:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821194"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes I think you kinda proved my point: that you have to change the game to get this result. In general if it's not supported by the devs, then it's not going to get much community support. The path of least resistance generally wins out.
I didn't actually mind the upgrades when they were considered; before they began superceding the existing weapons outright, or were ill-fitting the the class' original role. For instance; why would a Soldier not carry the Pickaxe? It's a complete no-brainer because the times when a Soldier has to resort to melee are when he's out of ammo for both RL and Shotty, and most likely to be taking more damage than he can deal out. And giving the Demoman increased explosive damage resistance and a big stupid sword + charge completely removed his vulnerability to close range rushes, which was the main thing keeping him balanced. I still believe TF2 vanilla to be one of the best examples of game balance in history, but now it's a shadow of its former self. It's the only multiplayer game I've bought from Valve that in my eyes has actually depreciated in value as all the new free content has been added.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It was tolerably balanced in it's first release, but "one of the best examples of game balance in history" is a stretch. There are many things with TF2 that caused old TF players a lot of grief, and it wasn't just an issue of learning new skills and adapting, the game was just built more for the casual player in mind than it was ultimately balanced. I don't really like the new addons, but they are targeted to the appropriate market. Casual players have always been the goal of TF2 oddly enough.
Vanilla TF2 without respawn time changes was one of most boring games in history. Fortress Forever + dustbowl was still relatively popular back then and it was fully visible - in FF I was capturing while carrying flag and flying over houses (no, not retarded TFC medic + bh + conc style, just normal rocket jump) and in TF2 you simply killed defenders and had 20 s to move up.
<!--quoteo(post=1821627:date=Jan 5 2011, 08:48 AM:name=MOOtant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MOOtant @ Jan 5 2011, 08:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821627"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Vanilla TF2 without respawn time changes was one of most boring games in history. Fortress Forever + dustbowl was still relatively popular back then and it was fully visible - in FF I was capturing while carrying flag and flying over houses (no, not retarded TFC medic + bh + conc style, just normal rocket jump) and in TF2 you simply killed defenders and had 20 s to move up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tweaked respawntimes is complete bull###### in any TF2 pub game. It may suck for red at the first point where they might have to both wait and then walk but they are not really supposed to be able to hold out fairly on cp1. The chokepoints right outside blu spawn should give some meaningful advantage though. When it comes to the second point however, it's complete nuts to allow red to spawn faster than a blu can ever walk to even get near the front. Teleporters can tip this but a single uber easily fixes that and pushes blu back again and again. In my experience it has only worked "fairly" when red completely disregard their lives and you get a lucky roll tru half the map. Or blu is vastly superior. It's enough problem with normal times to get people to push all the time without facing the entire red team in the middle again and again.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually, the only class I play as vanilla is the Scout. I just have no use for his other weapons as his originals are far superior...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I strongly disagree. Shortstop is amazing once you get past the new aiming (very concentrated pellets) and the milkman kit adds incredible survivability, you can ever take a pointblank DH with it! It deals around 70 damage point blank, 40 medium range and 15-25 long range. It also crits all four shots for 144 damage each (all pellets hit). Throw some milk at a heavy and you can outheal his damage output with some dodging.
From someone who played moderately okay in the Euro TF2 League and still keeps in contact with some decent players, Vanilla scout is still the best scout there is.
It's better at medium range due to tighter pellet spread though. Not quite as strong as the pistol, but close enough that you can free up the pistol slot for something else. We all know how annoying it is to burn to death and have your corpse literally fall on top of the medpack you were trying to reach. That doesn't happen when you can douse yourself in soothing milk. Whether Scattergun or Shortstop is THE best weapon is not an argument we're going to settle anyway.
Oh, and the fish is just better than the aluminium bat. The bat is far too loud. Calls too much attention to you. With the fish you can usually get two hits in before they even notice you.
<!--quoteo(post=1821627:date=Jan 5 2011, 07:48 AM:name=MOOtant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MOOtant @ Jan 5 2011, 07:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821627"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Vanilla TF2 without respawn time changes was one of most boring games in history. Fortress Forever + dustbowl was still relatively popular back then and it was fully visible - in FF I was capturing while carrying flag and flying over houses (no, not retarded TFC medic + bh + conc style, just normal rocket jump) and in TF2 you simply killed defenders and had 20 s to move up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Hmm, it's difficult to say which version of TF2 I mean. Before the upgrades was pretty good (although I do really like the first Medic upgrades - no idea if he's got other upgrades now but when people are talking about the 'fish' and 'milk' I suspect he has some sort of hilarious useless/OP/completely out of character weapon). But I can't really say that day 1 release TF2 was amazing because a lot of important yet subtle map and class changes got made after that (spawn times, map geometry, class max ammo/mag counts).
When I talk about the balance I'm partially talking about the maps but mostly about the classes. There were people who were pretty decent in all classes and it's one of the few games where I felt that if our team didn't have one of a particular class, I should change to that class so our team was well-rounded. I ended up 'specialising' in about 4 or 5 classes that I really, really liked playing; when most FPS games boil down to learning one or two all-powerful loadouts/roles/styles. And while some class combinations were very powerful, it never felt like any one class was completely useless (ok maybe Heavy, but it still fulfilled an important role overall), or any other class was crazy-OP. All the vanilla weapons the classes had struck a balance with eachother and fitted the classes well. I wasn't a fan of crits, but it wasn't the end of the world.
And that's before you talk about the game's usability: character design, autochatter, etc.; every time you consider a weak point in another FPS, the answer is often to be found in TF2. I'll admit TF2 felt slow compared to other FPSes, but I'd like to hear of any major imbalances with the game that weren't fixed very quickly. I really don't think there were that many... in the early days, that is.
<!--quoteo(post=1821691:date=Jan 5 2011, 04:30 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 5 2011, 04:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821691"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->pfft Milkman, you're not supposed to get hit as a scoot man :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tell that to soldiers in tunnels, you don't got a chance in hell when they shoot their feet and blow you up with two shots. DH takes some aiming, but again, tunnels.
lolfighter, not as strong as the pistol you say? The power or the spread? It sure as hell packs a harder punch at all ranges except sniping distances, but that's mostly due to having less ammo.
As for imbalances, it depends on how early you mean. Indestructable stickys were in for a long time before they allowed bullets to destroy them, but generally you're right.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1821704:date=Jan 5 2011, 04:34 PM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Svenpa @ Jan 5 2011, 04:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821704"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tell that to soldiers in tunnels, you don't got a chance in hell when they shoot their feet and blow you up with two shots. DH takes some aiming, but again, tunnels.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Stay out of the tunnels :P
There are ALWAYS tunnels to get to the final cp! I won't jump around the first cap with the rest of my afraid-to-die teammates until the clock dooms us.
Well, towards the far end of medium range I believe the pistol does more damage than the shortstop. The shortstop's more front-loaded, but the pistol catches up when the shortstop reloads. Anyway, my point was not to compare the merits of shortstop vs. pistol, but shortstop vs. scattergun. The shortstop is good enough at medium range that you don't need the pistol, which frees up that weapon slot.
<!--quoteo(post=1821704:date=Jan 5 2011, 04:34 PM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Svenpa @ Jan 5 2011, 04:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821704"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tell that to soldiers in tunnels, you don't got a chance in hell when they shoot their feet and blow you up with two shots. DH takes some aiming, but again, tunnels.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You pot shot them and force them to low health by dodging their long range rockets. When you can a judge to have done say, 60-80 damage you move in for your two shot wonder. You should remain fairly unscathed so long as you use your strafe keys ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1821764:date=Jan 5 2011, 09:41 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Jan 5 2011, 09:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821764"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You pot shot them and force them to low health by dodging their long range rockets. When you can a judge to have done say, 60-80 damage you move in for your two shot wonder. You should remain fairly unscathed so long as you use your strafe keys ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure what kind of wallhacks or tunnels you are imagining but in Dustbowl part 1 and 2 there are a few tunnels with something called corners, what comes behind them might surprise you and no amount of dodging will get you away from a soldier closer than 5m. Unless you get lucky, which can always happen but not that often.
Play with me sometime, I'll teach you how you should play scout ;)
Although I actually thought you were referring to longer tunnels like one of the second pieces of dustbowl where there are 2. Admittadly though in the 3rd part of dustbowl that underground tunnel is a death trap due to its size and the models blocking any strafing, but the rest are all fully workable from that tactic.
The 2nd dustbowl choke point with tunnels requires you just to know when to jump.
Honestly, this sounds a bit like "no true irishman." "A good scout could have dodged that." "At that range, nobody could have dodged that." "Well, nobody who isn't a good scout at least." That's what it SOUNDS like. Hear me out.
That said, I have been in that very situation, as a soldier (though I have to say I've never been a very good soldier), and had my ass soundly handed to me by a player who is simply more skilled at the game than I am. I have played more than a few hours as a scout, and while this has sadly not turned me into the kind of deadly whirlwind that some scouts are, it has given me a good eye for good scout players. And the fact is, a good scout can dodge a whole lot of ######. But there's some degree of <a href="http://www.sirlin.net/articles/yomi-layer-3-knowing-the-mind-of-the-opponent.html" target="_blank">yomi</a> involved. At medium-close to close range, it's impossible to dodge a rocket if you react to it after the enemy soldier fires it. There's too much blast radius, and you'll probably get knocked about which makes it easier for the soldier to land the second rocket which kills you to death. You need to anticipate the rocket and dodge it before the soldier fires, at which point he might anticipate that you anticipate it and shoot in the direction you'd dodge, which you can then in turn anticipate etc. etc. etc.
What my point boils down to is that it is possible to defeat a soldier in a tunnel by correctly anticipating his actions. His advantage isn't so great that you can't defeat him by being better than him. But the advantage does rest with him, because the close quarters limit your options to avoid his attacks. If you're better at predicting his actions, you can probably kill him. If he is just as good at predicting where you're going to dodge as you are at predicting where he's going to fire, he'll probably turn you into irish stew. Which no true irishman does not enjoy.
<!--quoteo(post=1822583:date=Jan 8 2011, 06:30 AM:name=marks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (marks @ Jan 8 2011, 06:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822583"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How dare those talented developers try to make money off their hard work !!
/fistshake<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I presume that's a direct response to the OP's tripe at the beginning of this thread.
We already paid Valve for TF2. Some people are pissed because they paid for a completely different game to what they have now. Most of us know what it means to agree to a EULA, but Valve really stretched that to its limit with TF2. I wouldn't exactly call it a gentleman's contract.
I don't personally mind micropayments or DLC fluff, as long as they're not shoved somewhere that's not purposed to have stuff shoved in and they don't get in the way like an OCD kid holding a bare candyfloss stick.
That's a fair criticism in my view, but at the end of the day what can you do? PC isn't a closed platform like 360 and PS3 are. Maybe thats for better and maybe its for worse - but it is what it is.
edit: yeah it was, I didn't read the whole thread!
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1821854:date=Jan 6 2011, 01:16 AM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Svenpa @ Jan 6 2011, 01:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821854"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dustbowl<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There's your problem, the most spam heavy map ever!
BTW Svenpa, I'm just jerking your chain in this here thread :P
I am really annoyed that my (otherwise) favourite server has instant respawn. It breaks map balance. I'm thinking about dropping it. The Doomy's times were the best. :(
<!--quoteo(post=1822955:date=Jan 9 2011, 08:54 PM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Svenpa @ Jan 9 2011, 08:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822955"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hope you're all not playing 2fort with changed respawntimes and rolldice mods.
Because then I really am talking to deaf ears.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I only ever make guest appearances for teams at ETF2L and play TF2 Lobbies @ TF2Lobby.com
That being said I stick to one server for pub play, which is normally for scatter gun / soldier rocket aim practice. That's the EU server Uberium.
Comments
<a href="http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3408/the_cabal_valves_design_process_.php" target="_blank">http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3408...gn_process_.php</a> First few paragraphs. In 98 Half-Life was just amazing. (the one they released after working more on it)
With respect to CS:S and balance, they all play both sides anyway so what's the point? Double elites are underused and with dynamic pricing they were cheap enough to get used in common strategies. But it's all longer story anyway - during porting CS to Source from HL2 they lost fun factor somewhere.
I see what you have done there.
Is there a plugin for that? There probably is. If not, there should be. Either way, I suspect that servers that would run it would be chronically underpopulated. I suspect that the vast majority of TF2 players have a series of additions and changes since vanilla they don't like, but that they'll pick "all of them" if the only alternative is "none of them." Habitual medic players will probably argue that the Blutsauger adds crucial survivability to an otherwise mercilessly hunted class, while other people will never want to be without their Sandvich again. And so on and so forth.
The Euro TF2 League restricts everything via a script, but it is possible to get round that if you know how.
The Euro TF2 League restricts everything via a script, but it is possible to get round that if you know how.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yes I think you kinda proved my point: that you have to change the game to get this result. In general if it's not supported by the devs, then it's not going to get much community support. The path of least resistance generally wins out.
I didn't actually mind the upgrades when they were considered; before they began superceding the existing weapons outright, or were ill-fitting the the class' original role. For instance; why would a Soldier not carry the Pickaxe? It's a complete no-brainer because the times when a Soldier has to resort to melee are when he's out of ammo for both RL and Shotty, and most likely to be taking more damage than he can deal out. And giving the Demoman increased explosive damage resistance and a big stupid sword + charge completely removed his vulnerability to close range rushes, which was the main thing keeping him balanced. I still believe TF2 vanilla to be one of the best examples of game balance in history, but now it's a shadow of its former self. It's the only multiplayer game I've bought from Valve that in my eyes has actually depreciated in value as all the new free content has been added.
<!--quoteo(post=1821035:date=Jan 3 2011, 02:47 AM:name=MOOtant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MOOtant @ Jan 3 2011, 02:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821035"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With respect to CS:S and balance, they all play both sides anyway so what's the point? Double elites are underused and with dynamic pricing they were cheap enough to get used in common strategies. But it's all longer story anyway - during porting CS to Source from HL2 they lost fun factor somewhere.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The point is that if Duals are underused they should be improved or reduced in price. The simplest solution to the very few weapons that were UP is not to throw the rest of the game's balance into constant flux.
I suspect Valve were wondering if they could use raw userdata to balance a game's economy <i>without any manual interpretation</i>. The answer is 'no, because players have many differing behaviours'. There are those who choose an optimal strategy, those who enjoy variety/roleplaying, those who enjoy deliberately making things difficult for themselves, those who find a certain weapon easier to use, even though they can never output the same damage as another weapon, etc.. In a game like CS, the first group is in the vast majority, so all this serves to do is create a cycle where the optimal strategy is in constant flux (because most people are using the best guns, and these 'best guns' will constantly change), which means this mechanic is having a much greater influence on wins/losses than it should do versus player skill and teamwork. Imagine if you threw dynamic pricing into an RTS; that's right: utter chaos. You need to consider why players are producing the information they are before acting on it; whether its user-submitted feedback or precise user-generated data it's still subject to <i>subjective</i> user behaviour.
I didn't actually mind the upgrades when they were considered; before they began superceding the existing weapons outright, or were ill-fitting the the class' original role. For instance; why would a Soldier not carry the Pickaxe? It's a complete no-brainer because the times when a Soldier has to resort to melee are when he's out of ammo for both RL and Shotty, and most likely to be taking more damage than he can deal out. And giving the Demoman increased explosive damage resistance and a big stupid sword + charge completely removed his vulnerability to close range rushes, which was the main thing keeping him balanced. I still believe TF2 vanilla to be one of the best examples of game balance in history, but now it's a shadow of its former self. It's the only multiplayer game I've bought from Valve that in my eyes has actually depreciated in value as all the new free content has been added.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was tolerably balanced in it's first release, but "one of the best examples of game balance in history" is a stretch. There are many things with TF2 that caused old TF players a lot of grief, and it wasn't just an issue of learning new skills and adapting, the game was just built more for the casual player in mind than it was ultimately balanced. I don't really like the new addons, but they are targeted to the appropriate market. Casual players have always been the goal of TF2 oddly enough.
Tweaked respawntimes is complete bull###### in any TF2 pub game. It may suck for red at the first point where they might have to both wait and then walk but they are not really supposed to be able to hold out fairly on cp1. The chokepoints right outside blu spawn should give some meaningful advantage though. When it comes to the second point however, it's complete nuts to allow red to spawn faster than a blu can ever walk to even get near the front. Teleporters can tip this but a single uber easily fixes that and pushes blu back again and again. In my experience it has only worked "fairly" when red completely disregard their lives and you get a lucky roll tru half the map. Or blu is vastly superior. It's enough problem with normal times to get people to push all the time without facing the entire red team in the middle again and again.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually, the only class I play as vanilla is the Scout. I just have no use for his other weapons as his originals are far superior...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I strongly disagree. Shortstop is amazing once you get past the new aiming (very concentrated pellets) and the milkman kit adds incredible survivability, you can ever take a pointblank DH with it! It deals around 70 damage point blank, 40 medium range and 15-25 long range. It also crits all four shots for 144 damage each (all pellets hit). Throw some milk at a heavy and you can outheal his damage output with some dodging.
The short stop is fun but it's not scatter gun.
Oh, and the fish is just better than the aluminium bat. The bat is far too loud. Calls too much attention to you. With the fish you can usually get two hits in before they even notice you.
When I talk about the balance I'm partially talking about the maps but mostly about the classes. There were people who were pretty decent in all classes and it's one of the few games where I felt that if our team didn't have one of a particular class, I should change to that class so our team was well-rounded. I ended up 'specialising' in about 4 or 5 classes that I really, really liked playing; when most FPS games boil down to learning one or two all-powerful loadouts/roles/styles. And while some class combinations were very powerful, it never felt like any one class was completely useless (ok maybe Heavy, but it still fulfilled an important role overall), or any other class was crazy-OP. All the vanilla weapons the classes had struck a balance with eachother and fitted the classes well. I wasn't a fan of crits, but it wasn't the end of the world.
And that's before you talk about the game's usability: character design, autochatter, etc.; every time you consider a weak point in another FPS, the answer is often to be found in TF2. I'll admit TF2 felt slow compared to other FPSes, but I'd like to hear of any major imbalances with the game that weren't fixed very quickly. I really don't think there were that many... in the early days, that is.
Tell that to soldiers in tunnels, you don't got a chance in hell when they shoot their feet and blow you up with two shots. DH takes some aiming, but again, tunnels.
lolfighter, not as strong as the pistol you say? The power or the spread? It sure as hell packs a harder punch at all ranges except sniping distances, but that's mostly due to having less ammo.
As for imbalances, it depends on how early you mean. Indestructable stickys were in for a long time before they allowed bullets to destroy them, but generally you're right.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZzU5Db_-yg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZzU5Db_-yg</a>
This sums up that crap box. Nail on the head for Episode 3 too lol.
Stay out of the tunnels :P
You pot shot them and force them to low health by dodging their long range rockets. When you can a judge to have done say, 60-80 damage you move in for your two shot wonder. You should remain fairly unscathed so long as you use your strafe keys ;)
I'm not sure what kind of wallhacks or tunnels you are imagining but in Dustbowl part 1 and 2 there are a few tunnels with something called corners, what comes behind them might surprise you and no amount of dodging will get you away from a soldier closer than 5m. Unless you get lucky, which can always happen but not that often.
Although I actually thought you were referring to longer tunnels like one of the second pieces of dustbowl where there are 2. Admittadly though in the 3rd part of dustbowl that underground tunnel is a death trap due to its size and the models blocking any strafing, but the rest are all fully workable from that tactic.
The 2nd dustbowl choke point with tunnels requires you just to know when to jump.
That said, I have been in that very situation, as a soldier (though I have to say I've never been a very good soldier), and had my ass soundly handed to me by a player who is simply more skilled at the game than I am. I have played more than a few hours as a scout, and while this has sadly not turned me into the kind of deadly whirlwind that some scouts are, it has given me a good eye for good scout players. And the fact is, a good scout can dodge a whole lot of ######. But there's some degree of <a href="http://www.sirlin.net/articles/yomi-layer-3-knowing-the-mind-of-the-opponent.html" target="_blank">yomi</a> involved. At medium-close to close range, it's impossible to dodge a rocket if you react to it after the enemy soldier fires it. There's too much blast radius, and you'll probably get knocked about which makes it easier for the soldier to land the second rocket which kills you to death. You need to anticipate the rocket and dodge it before the soldier fires, at which point he might anticipate that you anticipate it and shoot in the direction you'd dodge, which you can then in turn anticipate etc. etc. etc.
What my point boils down to is that it is possible to defeat a soldier in a tunnel by correctly anticipating his actions. His advantage isn't so great that you can't defeat him by being better than him. But the advantage does rest with him, because the close quarters limit your options to avoid his attacks. If you're better at predicting his actions, you can probably kill him. If he is just as good at predicting where you're going to dodge as you are at predicting where he's going to fire, he'll probably turn you into irish stew. Which no true irishman does not enjoy.
/fistshake
/fistshake<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I presume that's a direct response to the OP's tripe at the beginning of this thread.
We already paid Valve for TF2. Some people are pissed because they paid for a completely different game to what they have now. Most of us know what it means to agree to a EULA, but Valve really stretched that to its limit with TF2. I wouldn't exactly call it a gentleman's contract.
I don't personally mind micropayments or DLC fluff, as long as they're not shoved somewhere that's not purposed to have stuff shoved in and they don't get in the way like an OCD kid holding a bare candyfloss stick.
edit: yeah it was, I didn't read the whole thread!
There's your problem, the most spam heavy map ever!
BTW Svenpa, I'm just jerking your chain in this here thread :P
Because then I really am talking to deaf ears.
Because then I really am talking to deaf ears.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I only ever make guest appearances for teams at ETF2L and play TF2 Lobbies @ TF2Lobby.com
That being said I stick to one server for pub play, which is normally for scatter gun / soldier rocket aim practice. That's the EU server Uberium.