Those other maps sound great and are what expect. Hell, even rockdown LOOKS great even if the balance for it is way off. But I personally feel the art direction is right where it needs to be, feels very Aliens like (too bad AvP doesn't understand this) and with just throwing in some unique rooms like that Biodome or an outdoors area (at night preferably) intermingled with the tight, constraining hallways is a great idea. Just that brief view of the mineshaft map looks great.
<!--quoteo(post=1820777:date=Jan 2 2011, 01:14 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jan 2 2011, 01:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820777"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In addition to all the performance and gameplay balance issues there is still a ton of new stuff left to go into the game. Off the top of my head: at 35$ cost.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Dissapointed to not see skill-based movement on list, things like skulk and marine are a wreck especially since those are probably most time spent role wise.
The problem is Cory to the heavy forum reader that's obvious. To a newcomer it seems it isn't.
Maybe it's the lack of available patch notes via things like Steam or it's not apparent enough that you need to set *TEST* tag or something on to the map file names for the in-game menus.
Funny you should mention MW2 being $40-60 and lacking dedicated server support Barlow. Didn't it also feature sacking most of the design team and closed-source developer tools too? :)
<!--quoteo(post=1820840:date=Jan 2 2011, 04:44 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jan 2 2011, 04:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820840"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dissapointed to not see skill-based movement on list, things like skulk and marine are a wreck especially since those are probably most time spent role wise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If there's bunny hopping for skulk or anything similarly stupid I leave and tell all my friends to never buy it. Yes, drama queen style. :P
<!--quoteo(post=1820840:date=Jan 2 2011, 12:44 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jan 2 2011, 12:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820840"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dissapointed to not see skill-based movement on list, things like skulk and marine are a wreck especially since those are probably most time spent role wise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What do you mean with "skill-based movement"? If you mean scripting so you can make multiple things pressing 1 button (nothing to do with skill), yeah it will be added. And as above, bh is not a good thing. I remember those flying skulks that never touch the ground and kill everything in front of them. A combination of bh and leap, funny to see one time, annoying the rest of life.
<!--quoteo(post=1820748:date=Jan 2 2011, 02:22 AM:name=Mkilbride)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkilbride @ Jan 2 2011, 02:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820748"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And you're mistaken about it not covering it; it's called selling on volume,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly this, and the best part of this is, because it's a digital product and digital distribution, the capital per additional unit sold is only whatever the selling fee is that they pay to paypal or valve or the bank or whoever - everything else is revenue. The limit then, is how many people will want to buy NS2 at that price point. If you could simulate the demand curve, and the cost, revenue, and profit, you could determine the best price point for optimal maximum profit. Demand curves change with perceptions (perceived value) and time, and I have no doubt that $35 is not the optimal price point at this point in time (because the game is incomplete) - the question is, in the future, will the developers be able to deliver, such that the game has a 'perceived worth' of $35.
Cory: Thank you for clarifying. Having read your reasoning, it all makes sense and you have my support. Having said that, $35 is certainly not in impulse buy territory. But that's fine, because the game isn't complete yet; and also because the game you make, although independently developed, is not "indie" in its ambition (and low official price points on release have certain repercussions on the reputation of the game and the company). I only hope that that high ambition comes to fruition. I only hope that you make the game worth the $35 or $40 we paid for it. :)
PlasmaJoin Date: 2003-04-26Member: 15855Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2011
I'd pay $35.
Link Dead (mm.soldat.pl) which I've played twice, I paid $50 for when it was 'pay whatever you want'. He's now selling the game for $5.00.
Probably paid too much, I don't really care though!
Upping the price is hard to do, so starting off at your most expected price is always the best decision (discounts are always received well by potential customers, increases, not so much!).
Corey, don't axe Rockdown, its a great map imo. I think you may mean Junction?
As for DLC (I know it's a long way off), cosmetic things like having a different gorge belly glow (eg blue instead of orange) or a pretty new rifle skin I'd pay a few bucks for.
DLC that segments the community (eg, DLC only maps like BF BC2) are always horrible imo.
There are of course probably other money streams you haven't even considered seriously yet (DLC, experimenting with free weekends, in-game items ala TF2 or something, cross game promotion, engine licensing for commercial use etc).
One thing you may want to consider (read The Referral Engine book): Make it painless for your customers to refer you. Let me press a button in-game to automatically send a 'hey check out NS2' sort of email/message via Steam to my contacts, or enter an e-mail address, etc for them to check it out.
People go out of their way to promote products they like, if you make it painless for them to promote the game to friends/Steam contacts/etc perhaps you will get some further boosts in sales.
<!--quoteo(post=1820777:date=Jan 1 2011, 11:14 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jan 1 2011, 11:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820777"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We also need to generate enough income from NS2 to continue supporting and adding more to the game after release. New maps, new weapons, new alien classes, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that's what people are worrying about. Can you generate enough income to keep the development alive till release? With all the pre-order sales, it's basically like you're paying today's need with tomorrows paycheck. At the moment it just seems to me that there's only two way this is gonna go. The worst scenario. Not enough income funding the development, UW goes under, NS2 dead before ever going gold. The best scenario. NS2 was made to relatively bug free, and gone gold. However, the most of the potential customers already bought the pre-orders. Not enough income post-release, UW goes under soon afterward.
I loved NS1 and feel NS2 has displayed amazing potentials. But I honestly can't help but be worried about the future of NS2 and UW.
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
thats the risk of a indie dev team. but it seems to work currently, i'm sure it's not easy, but i had many many great games with ns2 and there is good progress. so i don't worry too much :)
I honestly don't understand the issues with price point for this. Might just be that I'm coming from an aussie perspective where games over here start at $90, and I've seen some up to $130 for so called AAA - that's with our dollar currently stronger than the american aswell.
Up until recently buying through steam etc has also meant converting to our dollar/rates and paying at least 15-20% more + currency conversion. To me paying $35 for a completely new fps game engine, any fps, or any indie game that is actually complex - is pretty much a steal... all three combined... Get over it, it will be good, buy it if you agree - and tell your friends to.
I think danshyu said most of it a few posts above this one.
Also, I don't know if this is the right thread to discuss this, but since Cory mentioned it:
<!--quoteo(post=1820777:date=Jan 2 2011, 12:14 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jan 2 2011, 12:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820777"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We also need to generate enough income from NS2 to continue supporting and adding more to the game after release. New maps, new weapons, new alien classes, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Adding too much new content sounds harmful from the RTS and/or competetive point of view. Part of the charm in RTS games is that you can go: "Ok, I've got this set of tools to solve this kind of problems. What kind of plan should I have?" And then you start learning how to understand and manipulate the specific tools and specific playground to your advantage.
Now, if there is a constant stream of bigger and smaller features added constantly, the game never really reaches a state where the teams have a stable dialogue between each other. There's constantly something imbalanced or unpredictable going on and you never really have a game of controlled strategy. And this is without talking about the actual balancing act in a melee vs ranged RTS/FPS which has been proven extremely tricky on its own.
I'm more than willing to pay for a well designed expansion pack here and there, but I'm not sure whether I'd enjoy a game that never reaches a state where it's allowed to sit back and grow on its own for a while. Of course it might be interesting to try to survive on a playing field that constantly changes, but I don't think its a safe basis for a longer lasting depth gaming experience.
---
I guess from the funding point of view I'm worrying about UWE being able to finish a game that is feature complete enough so that it actually can offer a deeper gameplay experience rather than a game that just gets mixed up on the surface with the new features through the whole lifetime of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1820925:date=Jan 2 2011, 10:03 AM:name=danshyu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (danshyu @ Jan 2 2011, 10:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820925"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that's what people are worrying about. Can you generate enough income to keep the development alive till release? With all the pre-order sales, it's basically like you're paying today's need with tomorrows paycheck. At the moment it just seems to me that there's only two way this is gonna go. The worst scenario. Not enough income funding the development, UW goes under, NS2 dead before ever going gold. The best scenario. NS2 was made to relatively bug free, and gone gold. However, the most of the potential customers already bought the pre-orders. Not enough income post-release, UW goes under soon afterward.
I loved NS1 and feel NS2 has displayed amazing potentials. But I honestly can't help but be worried about the future of NS2 and UW.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let's let UWE worry about their own future. Honestly, you feel that UWE is going bankrupt either way but, I'm assuming, you have no experience in the video game industry, have no idea what UWE's current financial state is, and have no way of predicting demand once NS2 is released. I don't think there's a reason to be worried. Both Cory and Flayra are seasoned veterans of game development and I'm going to take their word above someone else or even my own.
The one nice thing about video games is that you get <i>a lot</i> of free advertising upon release (magazine / online reviews, social media, etc) and with NS2 being on Steam they'll have the option to advertise and run promotions for NS2 as well. NS2 is going to have to be one giant piece of crap for it to bankrupt UWE.
Someone at Valve must be following this, if not Gabe himself. If you buy NS2, free TF2 hats for all ! Thats the one thing i never ever understood why Valve didn't try to get theire hands on this IP. It's one if not the most orginal multiplayer shooters created in the last ten years.
<!--quoteo(post=1820942:date=Jan 2 2011, 05:39 PM:name=sypro)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sypro @ Jan 2 2011, 05:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820942"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Someone at Valve must be following this, if not Gabe himself. If you buy NS2, free TF2 hats for all ! Thats the one thing i never ever understood why Valve didn't try to get theire hands on this IP. It's one if not the most orginal multiplayer shooters created in the last ten years.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was when it was a mod, but there are now tons of RTS / FPS Hybrids. Not so rare anymore. Also UWE probably wants to remain Indie, I agree it'd be great if they went with Valve though, it'd solve alot of issues, I'd imagine.
I mean heck, Nuclear Dawn is coming out in Q1 2011, and looks awesome. Same concept, different setting.
You guys need to quit insulting the team that are working their asses off for this game and just chill out. You don't know their sales numbers and you don't know their costs. You're just assuming the worst about their financial situation with no basis whatsoever.
<!--quoteo(post=1820954:date=Jan 2 2011, 06:24 PM:name=Mkilbride)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkilbride @ Jan 2 2011, 06:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820954"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was when it was a mod, but there are now tons of RTS / FPS Hybrids. Not so rare anymore. Also UWE probably wants to remain Indie, I agree it'd be great if they went with Valve though, it'd solve alot of issues, I'd imagine.
I mean heck, Nuclear Dawn is coming out in Q1 2011, and looks awesome. Same concept, different setting.
Natural Selection can no longer sell off it's gameplay alone, is all I mean. There are dozens of RTS / FPS games these days.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was talking about the complete package and not just the genre. I know games such as Savage 2 aswell but the whole Aliens vs Marines in very technical maps makes for some very unique gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=1820954:date=Jan 2 2011, 06:24 PM:name=Mkilbride)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkilbride @ Jan 2 2011, 06:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820954"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was when it was a mod, but there are now tons of RTS / FPS Hybrids. Not so rare anymore. Also UWE probably wants to remain Indie, I agree it'd be great if they went with Valve though, it'd solve alot of issues, I'd imagine.
I mean heck, Nuclear Dawn is coming out in Q1 2011, and looks awesome. Same concept, different setting.
Natural Selection can no longer sell off it's gameplay alone, is all I mean. There are dozens of RTS / FPS games these days.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please list 12+ games that are RTS/FPS, that aren't a pile of crap, that have been released in the past 5 years, let alone "these days". I could probably cut off your left arm, and half your fingers on your right hand, and you would still have leftover fingers after counting. Off the top of my head...
Savage Savage2 (sequel) Empires (sucks, mod) Nuclear Dawn (not released)
So technically...I count two. One if you don't count sequels. The fact remains is that the RTS/FPS hybrid genre is still largely untapped, as there has not been a breakout game from that category since, arguably, Battlezone and Dungeon Keeper. And those came out 12 years ago. UWE has a real chance here.
<!--quoteo(post=1820983:date=Jan 2 2011, 09:08 PM:name=Avalon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Avalon @ Jan 2 2011, 09:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820983"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please list 12+ games that are RTS/FPS, that aren't a pile of crap, that have been released in the past 5 years, let alone "these days". I could probably cut off your left arm, and half your fingers on your right hand, and you would still have leftover fingers after counting. Off the top of my head...
Savage Savage2 (sequel) Empires (sucks, mod) Nuclear Dawn (not released)
So technically...I count two. One if you don't count sequels. The fact remains is that the RTS/FPS hybrid genre is still largely untapped, as there has not been a breakout game from that category since, arguably, Battlezone and Dungeon Keeper. And those came out 12 years ago. UWE has a real chance here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Natural Selection Natural Selection 2 ----- Savage series Empires Tremulous Nuclear Dawn Urban Assault Project Reality Zombie Master Iron Grip series Rise & Fall: Civilizations at War Dungeon Keeper series Command & Conquer: Renegade X Warsoup Battlezone Battlezone 2 Refusion Battle Realms
And regardless if you think a game sucks or not, it doesn't change that it is part of the RTS / FPS Genre.
The issue I see here with most people is that those who haven't purchased the game yet aren't seeing a good return on investment. Of course the single largest factor here is time and patience. The amount of time still needed to complete the game coupled with the lack of patience of some people here leads them to think that the $35 pricetag is steep. Assuming that the current version of NS2 is very similar to the final copy then this is a concern I would share. I would not and have not paid $35 for the game as it stands. Of course as Cory has already clarified, this is not close to the final product even though the current price is set to reflect upon the final product.
Further, Cory has also stated that there has been no marketing efforts towards selling the game at this point. This is justly so, as if the team were to try and market the game to the large audience now, they would essentially shoot themselves in the foot. For one, if they began large scale marketing now they would waste time and money that could go into the development of the game, and secondly they would also ruin credibility as potential customers would purchase a half finished game and creating negative perception of the game. This marketing blitz must be strategically executed and will be done once the developers are confident in their products ability to stand by itself. This is of course why the product hasn't hit the Steam store yet.
For the my final opinion I feel that <u>UWE is doing exactly what it should be</u>; completing the product under support from its community. Further, they aren't going around and trying to solicit support for an incomplete product because as I said before that would create a negative reputation for the game and developers. UWE is fortunate to have a community such as this, but luck has nothing to do with this fact. They provided a great product for what it was worth (NS1) which for its cost of free created a great fan base. And don't for a second think that this community is the only support base UWE has. The amount of exposure NS1 had was in fact very large, as many users may have been either long time users who switched to other games and haven't participated in this community for some time, or were short time users who did get satisfaction from NS1 and have changed priorities in life (School, Work, outside influences which hinder game playing time). I certainly know this is the case for me, as I played heavily in high school but lost free time in College/the 'real' world. But to touch upon the first set of users who played NS1 for a long time and moved onto other games, these users will see NS2 when the media blitz occurs and most likely purchase it. After all, these are users who have the ability to purchase AAA titles for $40-60 as they change to newer trending games. Many times have I seen user comments on a trailer saying things along the lines 'I used to play NS1 back in the day and will probably purchase this game when it is finalized'
<b>So what can we do as a community?</b> Continue to support the developers and wait for the final product. The fact that they have pushed backed the release date is something that can be expected with a product such as this. Remember the size of the team, the conditions on which they work and resources at their disposal. To expect the game to be released on time is foolish as a patron of this community. And obviously, the developers understand the needs of the community and provide as they can updates (Also keep in mind the Devs understand the pressure that the community is pushing onto their small team). Remember they don't have a marketing/PR guy and at this point there is no reason to expect one. NS2HD's commentary on the game as it develops is a great resource for the Devs (Something they have realized by granting NS2HD access to Dev information). And remember this community is what keeps the game alive and strong. The feedback provided by an early Alpha and Beta release have cut production times extensively. The Devs win by quickly squashing bugs and the community wins by having early access to their highly anticipated game. I would say that for some paying $35 would provide the satisfaction of knowing not only do they have the ability to play the game as it develops but they were also a key part of the development process and responsible member of their established community (And yes, believe it or not but being a responsible member of the community does influence sales). So let the game develop know that you are helping the game evolve. Also know that UWE is playing its cards right and not trying to create a huge hype now while they don't have a credible product.
For my final note, if you are arguing that $35 dollars won't appeal to outside players then please take the time to read my post at least three times. Further, if you complain about the price you may exercise the greatest of abilities and <u>not purchase the game until its done.</u> Then once it is done you can make a determination whether the game will provide a reasonable ROI (Which I'm quite sure it will).
<!--quoteo(post=1820925:date=Jan 2 2011, 03:03 PM:name=danshyu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (danshyu @ Jan 2 2011, 03:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820925"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However, the most of the potential customers already bought the pre-orders. Not enough income post-release, UW goes under soon afterward.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> NS1 had numbers in the hundreds of thousands of people who downloaded and played. So far, pre orders for NS2 has been a very very small fraction of that number, and has kept us in business for a year and a half. Many games these days need sales in the millions in order to see a profit due to their expenses, but with our relatively low cost overhead compared to most companies, and without having had the duration of the project funded by a publisher that needs to first see a return on their investment before paying out to the developer, we can survive off a much smaller number of sales. It is pretty unlikely that we won't be able to generate further sales beyond our pre order base once the game is finished and released, and if that is the case then something has gone terribly wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=1820935:date=Jan 2 2011, 04:00 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jan 2 2011, 04:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820935"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Adding too much new content sounds harmful from the RTS and/or competetive point of view. If there is a constant stream of bigger and smaller features added constantly, the game never really reaches a state where the teams have a stable dialogue between each other.
I'm more than willing to pay for a well designed expansion pack here and there, but I'm not sure whether I'd enjoy a game that never reaches a state where it's allowed to sit back and grow on its own for a while.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> To clarify my earlier statement regarding new content post release, I am not referring to a constant stream of new features being added. Most patches will address bug fixes and some balance tweaks, and anything major like new weapons or new aliens would be part of a full expansion pack type of release, and would have been tested and very much worked into the overall game design flow. Most likely it would include a lot of features and assets that we have already thought about quite a bit, but that we know we don't have the time and money to fit into NS2 v 1.0
I think you need to take your last post and a lot of your posts on the forums Cory, collate them and put them in to one big press release addressing a lot of the issues you have replied on.
I can see it's painful for you having to constantly reply to the same sort of things over and over again on here.
<!--quoteo(post=1820991:date=Jan 2 2011, 09:57 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jan 2 2011, 09:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820991"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is pretty unlikely that we won't be able to generate further sales beyond our pre order base once the game is finished and released, and if that is the case then something has gone terribly wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah your game has to be pretty terrible to make more on preorder than on/after launch. Most games sell far more after launch than before.
<!--quoteo(post=1820992:date=Jan 2 2011, 10:03 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Jan 2 2011, 10:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820992"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you need to take your last post and a lot of your posts on the forums Cory, collate them and put them in to one big press release addressing a lot of the issues you have replied on.
I can see it's painful for you having to constantly reply to the same sort of things over and over again on here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You'd also have to repost it every week and put it at the top of every forum page and require a detailed quiz on the topic as part of the registration process.
<!--quoteo(post=1820987:date=Jan 2 2011, 04:17 PM:name=Death_by_bullets)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Death_by_bullets @ Jan 2 2011, 04:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820987"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The issue I see here with most people is that those who haven't purchased the game yet aren't seeing a good return on investment. Of course the single largest factor here is time and patience. The amount of time still needed to complete the game coupled with the lack of patience of some people here leads them to think that the $35 pricetag is steep. Assuming that the current version of NS2 is very similar to the final copy then this is a concern I would share. I would not and have not paid $35 for the game as it stands. Of course as Cory has already clarified, this is not close to the final product even though the current price is set to reflect upon the final product.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The current price reflects the final product because you are buying the final product. Being able to play the beta now is just a pre-order perk.
I said within the past 5 years. That leaves us with...
NS2 (unreleased) Empires Nuclear Dawn (unreleased) Zombie Master (can't find the release date and it's a source mod, so I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt) Iron Grip Rise and Fall Warsoup (unreleased) Refusion (I can't find anything on this?) Savage 2
Not counting unreleased games, because they are obviously not out yet, my point still stands. There are practically zero commercial FPS/RTS games out there, and the genre is hugely untapped.
Even a AAA game developer do pre-orders. Look at Crysis 2. They also give some tasty good stuff with it (no beta access so far and a hell to use mod tools) because they need this cash flow. And they are a big company with an small budget of millions. Just for the multiplayer part they have 70 developers.
UWE is just fine and is doing the same thing the AAA developers do, plus giving us a better multiplayer game and an incredibles well designed tools. If I can make a map you know how easy is to work with this tools.
And if you still have doubts about UWE finishing the game and keep working on it for a long time, and then release other amazing games becoming on a AAA developer, talk to your friends and make them buy the game so the cash flows and there will be no further troubles. Just saying.
NS was and still is the best mod ever made. NS2 will be the same but bigger. Did you notice that almost all the game magazines/sites love NS and NS2?
Comments
This is amazing haha.
Genius.
at 35$ cost.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dissapointed to not see skill-based movement on list, things like skulk and marine are a wreck especially since those are probably most time spent role wise.
Maybe it's the lack of available patch notes via things like Steam or it's not apparent enough that you need to set *TEST* tag or something on to the map file names for the in-game menus.
Funny you should mention MW2 being $40-60 and lacking dedicated server support Barlow. Didn't it also feature sacking most of the design team and closed-source developer tools too? :)
If there's bunny hopping for skulk or anything similarly stupid I leave and tell all my friends to never buy it. Yes, drama queen style. :P
What do you mean with "skill-based movement"?
If you mean scripting so you can make multiple things pressing 1 button (nothing to do with skill), yeah it will be added.
And as above, bh is not a good thing. I remember those flying skulks that never touch the ground and kill everything in front of them. A combination of bh and leap, funny to see one time, annoying the rest of life.
Exactly this, and the best part of this is, because it's a digital product and digital distribution, the capital per additional unit sold is only whatever the selling fee is that they pay to paypal or valve or the bank or whoever - everything else is revenue. The limit then, is how many people will want to buy NS2 at that price point. If you could simulate the demand curve, and the cost, revenue, and profit, you could determine the best price point for optimal maximum profit. Demand curves change with perceptions (perceived value) and time, and I have no doubt that $35 is not the optimal price point at this point in time (because the game is incomplete) - the question is, in the future, will the developers be able to deliver, such that the game has a 'perceived worth' of $35.
Cory: Thank you for clarifying. Having read your reasoning, it all makes sense and you have my support.
Having said that, $35 is certainly not in impulse buy territory. But that's fine, because the game isn't complete yet; and also because the game you make, although independently developed, is not "indie" in its ambition (and low official price points on release have certain repercussions on the reputation of the game and the company). I only hope that that high ambition comes to fruition. I only hope that you make the game worth the $35 or $40 we paid for it. :)
Link Dead (mm.soldat.pl) which I've played twice, I paid $50 for when it was 'pay whatever you want'. He's now selling the game for $5.00.
Probably paid too much, I don't really care though!
Upping the price is hard to do, so starting off at your most expected price is always the best decision (discounts are always received well by potential customers, increases, not so much!).
Corey, don't axe Rockdown, its a great map imo. I think you may mean Junction?
As for DLC (I know it's a long way off), cosmetic things like having a different gorge belly glow (eg blue instead of orange) or a pretty new rifle skin I'd pay a few bucks for.
DLC that segments the community (eg, DLC only maps like BF BC2) are always horrible imo.
There are of course probably other money streams you haven't even considered seriously yet (DLC, experimenting with free weekends, in-game items ala TF2 or something, cross game promotion, engine licensing for commercial use etc).
One thing you may want to consider (read The Referral Engine book): Make it painless for your customers to refer you. Let me press a button in-game to automatically send a 'hey check out NS2' sort of email/message via Steam to my contacts, or enter an e-mail address, etc for them to check it out.
People go out of their way to promote products they like, if you make it painless for them to promote the game to friends/Steam contacts/etc perhaps you will get some further boosts in sales.
I think that's what people are worrying about. Can you generate enough income to keep the development alive till release? With all the pre-order sales, it's basically like you're paying today's need with tomorrows paycheck. At the moment it just seems to me that there's only two way this is gonna go. The worst scenario. Not enough income funding the development, UW goes under, NS2 dead before ever going gold. The best scenario. NS2 was made to relatively bug free, and gone gold. However, the most of the potential customers already bought the pre-orders. Not enough income post-release, UW goes under soon afterward.
I loved NS1 and feel NS2 has displayed amazing potentials. But I honestly can't help but be worried about the future of NS2 and UW.
Up until recently buying through steam etc has also meant converting to our dollar/rates and paying at least 15-20% more + currency conversion. To me paying $35 for a completely new fps game engine, any fps, or any indie game that is actually complex - is pretty much a steal... all three combined... Get over it, it will be good, buy it if you agree - and tell your friends to.
Also, I don't know if this is the right thread to discuss this, but since Cory mentioned it:
<!--quoteo(post=1820777:date=Jan 2 2011, 12:14 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jan 2 2011, 12:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820777"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We also need to generate enough income from NS2 to continue supporting and adding more to the game after release. New maps, new weapons, new alien classes, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Adding too much new content sounds harmful from the RTS and/or competetive point of view. Part of the charm in RTS games is that you can go: "Ok, I've got this set of tools to solve this kind of problems. What kind of plan should I have?" And then you start learning how to understand and manipulate the specific tools and specific playground to your advantage.
Now, if there is a constant stream of bigger and smaller features added constantly, the game never really reaches a state where the teams have a stable dialogue between each other. There's constantly something imbalanced or unpredictable going on and you never really have a game of controlled strategy. And this is without talking about the actual balancing act in a melee vs ranged RTS/FPS which has been proven extremely tricky on its own.
I'm more than willing to pay for a well designed expansion pack here and there, but I'm not sure whether I'd enjoy a game that never reaches a state where it's allowed to sit back and grow on its own for a while. Of course it might be interesting to try to survive on a playing field that constantly changes, but I don't think its a safe basis for a longer lasting depth gaming experience.
---
I guess from the funding point of view I'm worrying about UWE being able to finish a game that is feature complete enough so that it actually can offer a deeper gameplay experience rather than a game that just gets mixed up on the surface with the new features through the whole lifetime of the game.
I loved NS1 and feel NS2 has displayed amazing potentials. But I honestly can't help but be worried about the future of NS2 and UW.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let's let UWE worry about their own future. Honestly, you feel that UWE is going bankrupt either way but, I'm assuming, you have no experience in the video game industry, have no idea what UWE's current financial state is, and have no way of predicting demand once NS2 is released. I don't think there's a reason to be worried. Both Cory and Flayra are seasoned veterans of game development and I'm going to take their word above someone else or even my own.
The one nice thing about video games is that you get <i>a lot</i> of free advertising upon release (magazine / online reviews, social media, etc) and with NS2 being on Steam they'll have the option to advertise and run promotions for NS2 as well. NS2 is going to have to be one giant piece of crap for it to bankrupt UWE.
It was when it was a mod, but there are now tons of RTS / FPS Hybrids. Not so rare anymore. Also UWE probably wants to remain Indie, I agree it'd be great if they went with Valve though, it'd solve alot of issues, I'd imagine.
I mean heck, Nuclear Dawn is coming out in Q1 2011, and looks awesome. Same concept, different setting.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWNtLTE48nQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWNtLTE48nQ</a>
Natural Selection can no longer sell off it's gameplay alone, is all I mean. There are dozens of RTS / FPS games these days.
I mean heck, Nuclear Dawn is coming out in Q1 2011, and looks awesome. Same concept, different setting.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWNtLTE48nQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWNtLTE48nQ</a>
Natural Selection can no longer sell off it's gameplay alone, is all I mean. There are dozens of RTS / FPS games these days.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was talking about the complete package and not just the genre. I know games such as Savage 2 aswell but the whole Aliens vs Marines in very technical maps makes for some very unique gameplay.
I mean heck, Nuclear Dawn is coming out in Q1 2011, and looks awesome. Same concept, different setting.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWNtLTE48nQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWNtLTE48nQ</a>
Natural Selection can no longer sell off it's gameplay alone, is all I mean. There are dozens of RTS / FPS games these days.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please list 12+ games that are RTS/FPS, that aren't a pile of crap, that have been released in the past 5 years, let alone "these days". I could probably cut off your left arm, and half your fingers on your right hand, and you would still have leftover fingers after counting. Off the top of my head...
Savage
Savage2 (sequel)
Empires (sucks, mod)
Nuclear Dawn (not released)
So technically...I count two. One if you don't count sequels. The fact remains is that the RTS/FPS hybrid genre is still largely untapped, as there has not been a breakout game from that category since, arguably, Battlezone and Dungeon Keeper. And those came out 12 years ago. UWE has a real chance here.
Savage
Savage2 (sequel)
Empires (sucks, mod)
Nuclear Dawn (not released)
So technically...I count two. One if you don't count sequels. The fact remains is that the RTS/FPS hybrid genre is still largely untapped, as there has not been a breakout game from that category since, arguably, Battlezone and Dungeon Keeper. And those came out 12 years ago. UWE has a real chance here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Natural Selection
Natural Selection 2
-----
Savage series
Empires
Tremulous
Nuclear Dawn
Urban Assault
Project Reality
Zombie Master
Iron Grip series
Rise & Fall: Civilizations at War
Dungeon Keeper series
Command & Conquer: Renegade X
Warsoup
Battlezone
Battlezone 2
Refusion
Battle Realms
And regardless if you think a game sucks or not, it doesn't change that it is part of the RTS / FPS Genre.
Further, Cory has also stated that there has been no marketing efforts towards selling the game at this point. This is justly so, as if the team were to try and market the game to the large audience now, they would essentially shoot themselves in the foot. For one, if they began large scale marketing now they would waste time and money that could go into the development of the game, and secondly they would also ruin credibility as potential customers would purchase a half finished game and creating negative perception of the game. This marketing blitz must be strategically executed and will be done once the developers are confident in their products ability to stand by itself. This is of course why the product hasn't hit the Steam store yet.
For the my final opinion I feel that <u>UWE is doing exactly what it should be</u>; completing the product under support from its community. Further, they aren't going around and trying to solicit support for an incomplete product because as I said before that would create a negative reputation for the game and developers. UWE is fortunate to have a community such as this, but luck has nothing to do with this fact. They provided a great product for what it was worth (NS1) which for its cost of free created a great fan base. And don't for a second think that this community is the only support base UWE has. The amount of exposure NS1 had was in fact very large, as many users may have been either long time users who switched to other games and haven't participated in this community for some time, or were short time users who did get satisfaction from NS1 and have changed priorities in life (School, Work, outside influences which hinder game playing time). I certainly know this is the case for me, as I played heavily in high school but lost free time in College/the 'real' world. But to touch upon the first set of users who played NS1 for a long time and moved onto other games, these users will see NS2 when the media blitz occurs and most likely purchase it. After all, these are users who have the ability to purchase AAA titles for $40-60 as they change to newer trending games. Many times have I seen user comments on a trailer saying things along the lines 'I used to play NS1 back in the day and will probably purchase this game when it is finalized'
<b>So what can we do as a community?</b> Continue to support the developers and wait for the final product. The fact that they have pushed backed the release date is something that can be expected with a product such as this. Remember the size of the team, the conditions on which they work and resources at their disposal. To expect the game to be released on time is foolish as a patron of this community. And obviously, the developers understand the needs of the community and provide as they can updates (Also keep in mind the Devs understand the pressure that the community is pushing onto their small team). Remember they don't have a marketing/PR guy and at this point there is no reason to expect one. NS2HD's commentary on the game as it develops is a great resource for the Devs (Something they have realized by granting NS2HD access to Dev information). And remember this community is what keeps the game alive and strong. The feedback provided by an early Alpha and Beta release have cut production times extensively. The Devs win by quickly squashing bugs and the community wins by having early access to their highly anticipated game. I would say that for some paying $35 would provide the satisfaction of knowing not only do they have the ability to play the game as it develops but they were also a key part of the development process and responsible member of their established community (And yes, believe it or not but being a responsible member of the community does influence sales). So let the game develop know that you are helping the game evolve. Also know that UWE is playing its cards right and not trying to create a huge hype now while they don't have a credible product.
For my final note, if you are arguing that $35 dollars won't appeal to outside players then please take the time to read my post at least three times. Further, if you complain about the price you may exercise the greatest of abilities and <u>not purchase the game until its done.</u> Then once it is done you can make a determination whether the game will provide a reasonable ROI (Which I'm quite sure it will).
Smooches,
Death_By_Bullets
NS1 had numbers in the hundreds of thousands of people who downloaded and played. So far, pre orders for NS2 has been a very very small fraction of that number, and has kept us in business for a year and a half. Many games these days need sales in the millions in order to see a profit due to their expenses, but with our relatively low cost overhead compared to most companies, and without having had the duration of the project funded by a publisher that needs to first see a return on their investment before paying out to the developer, we can survive off a much smaller number of sales. It is pretty unlikely that we won't be able to generate further sales beyond our pre order base once the game is finished and released, and if that is the case then something has gone terribly wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=1820935:date=Jan 2 2011, 04:00 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jan 2 2011, 04:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820935"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Adding too much new content sounds harmful from the RTS and/or competetive point of view.
If there is a constant stream of bigger and smaller features added constantly, the game never really reaches a state where the teams have a stable dialogue between each other.
I'm more than willing to pay for a well designed expansion pack here and there, but I'm not sure whether I'd enjoy a game that never reaches a state where it's allowed to sit back and grow on its own for a while.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To clarify my earlier statement regarding new content post release, I am not referring to a constant stream of new features being added. Most patches will address bug fixes and some balance tweaks, and anything major like new weapons or new aliens would be part of a full expansion pack type of release, and would have been tested and very much worked into the overall game design flow. Most likely it would include a lot of features and assets that we have already thought about quite a bit, but that we know we don't have the time and money to fit into NS2 v 1.0
I can see it's painful for you having to constantly reply to the same sort of things over and over again on here.
Yeah your game has to be pretty terrible to make more on preorder than on/after launch. Most games sell far more after launch than before.
<!--quoteo(post=1820992:date=Jan 2 2011, 10:03 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Jan 2 2011, 10:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820992"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you need to take your last post and a lot of your posts on the forums Cory, collate them and put them in to one big press release addressing a lot of the issues you have replied on.
I can see it's painful for you having to constantly reply to the same sort of things over and over again on here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You'd also have to repost it every week and put it at the top of every forum page and require a detailed quiz on the topic as part of the registration process.
People don't read.
The current price reflects the final product because you are buying the final product. Being able to play the beta now is just a pre-order perk.
I said within the past 5 years. That leaves us with...
NS2 (unreleased)
Empires
Nuclear Dawn (unreleased)
Zombie Master (can't find the release date and it's a source mod, so I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt)
Iron Grip
Rise and Fall
Warsoup (unreleased)
Refusion (I can't find anything on this?)
Savage 2
Not counting unreleased games, because they are obviously not out yet, my point still stands. There are practically zero commercial FPS/RTS games out there, and the genre is hugely untapped.
UWE is just fine and is doing the same thing the AAA developers do, plus giving us a better multiplayer game and an incredibles well designed tools. If I can make a map you know how easy is to work with this tools.
And if you still have doubts about UWE finishing the game and keep working on it for a long time, and then release other amazing games becoming on a AAA developer, talk to your friends and make them buy the game so the cash flows and there will be no further troubles. Just saying.
NS was and still is the best mod ever made. NS2 will be the same but bigger. Did you notice that almost all the game magazines/sites love NS and NS2?