<!--quoteo(post=1821112:date=Jan 3 2011, 03:23 AM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 3 2011, 03:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821112"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your framerate does not affect the server update rate. Your videos reach large numbers of people, it is important that your commentary does not misrepresent what you are recording.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is false. It's possible you misunderstood what NS2HD was saying, or you're simply misinformed. The download rate from the server to the client is not affected by clientside FPS, but the update rate from the client to the server is absolutely limited by your framerate. The alternative is for the client to send information it doesn't have, ie, information it made up, ie, interpolated data. I am not a coder or a programmer, and I have no knowledge of the inner workings of the Spark engine, but given my experience with netcode in other games, I'm going to go ahead and say that it doesn't happen.
In a second, the client can only send as much data as it has, 1 packet (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong) for each frame it renders. If I understood this thread correctly, this is less than 33 per second at max in NS2, limited further by your framerate. In Source, for example, this is 33, 66 or 100. Having a consistently higher framerate than the server ticrate and a perfect network connection will result in no packet loss and the maximum possible communication between server and client. Obviously, the higher the ticrate, the more possible communication between server and client. 33 packets per second is not as much data as 66 per second is not as much as 100 per second. (Everyone in the thread seems to have a handle on this, but this is a note for those reading who might not be following.) The argument at play seems to be that the current ticrate is too low (if it is at 33 or lower, I agree, but whether this is the prevalent issue is also a point of contention).
With demo recordings it is possible for a video to show a higher framerate than the original gameplay, but since NS2HD records live gameplay, given there is no provision to record in NS2 at the moment, his framerate and therefore update rate are lowered to whatever framerate is possible with Fraps consuming precious system resources. What you see is what you get.
I play from Europe, often to American servers. The effect this has on my lag and hit registration is enormous, not just in NS2 but across many games. The difference between 40ms and 100ms latency is large, and 200ms larger still. So for NS2HD, playing cross-Pacific games with Fraps running to record in tandem, we should be taking everything into account when analyzing gameplay issues based on the videos alone.
Sorry to drag on this tangential argument, but I think it's important for everyone to wrap their heads around the networking principles at play if we're discussing what the issue is in NS2. Whether it's hit registration, netcode, or individual clients/connections/skill.
Hopefully we can get a quick word from UWE about this issue. Maybe a professional network coder can put me in my place. :)
[The above is all my understanding of netcode from primarily the Source, HL1 and Unreal engines. Once again, I am not a coder, programmer or network technician of any kind, just a long time gamer who has done a good deal of research. I apologize for any inaccuracies in the details.]
<!--quoteo(post=1821125:date=Jan 3 2011, 09:44 AM:name=ArmadonRK)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ArmadonRK @ Jan 3 2011, 09:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821125"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The download rate from the server to the client is not affected by clientside FPS, but the update rate from the client to the server is absolutely limited by your framerate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is a fair point in the abstract, but it is<u> not in any way relevant to the discussion we are having</u>. UW specifically said the problem with update rate is server -> client communication or quote "outgoing bandwidth" from the server. And not only that, but the server -> client communication is intentionally <i>capped</i> and thus would not increase even if your objection was correct. As posted on the first page of this thread. But as you said,
<!--quoteo(post=1821125:date=Jan 3 2011, 09:44 AM:name=ArmadonRK)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ArmadonRK @ Jan 3 2011, 09:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821125"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The download rate from the server to the client is not affected by clientside FPS<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just going to throw this out there, I do not believe I've encountered hit detection problems as I've played one of the worst games when it comes to it; Bad Company 2. The amount of videos out there about hit fail and knife fail are unbelievable.
Now I think this is where NS2 would profit from some sort of hit confirmation such as an X on the crosshair everytime a bullet lands on its target, like BC2 or most other FPS games. THis is what makes the fail of the hit detection noticeable in BC2, you see the enemy soldier flinch, blood spray but no X. Which means he took no damage, same with the knife. Some people may think that the X is not hardcore enough, or too much of a console crutch, but regardless it would make testing in the beta extremely helpful.
Then by all means, make it like L4D where you can only tell a hit by the immense amount of blood, lol.
<!--quoteo(post=1821127:date=Jan 3 2011, 09:59 AM:name=FrontlinerDelta)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FrontlinerDelta @ Jan 3 2011, 09:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821127"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->THis is what makes the fail of the hit detection noticeable in BC2, you see the enemy soldier flinch, blood spray but no X. Which means he took no damage<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can actually see this happening in the video I keep citing. There are hit particle FX, like skulk blood drops, that are visible when the shotgun "hits" the skulk, but does no damage. NS2HD makes the comment that he "can see the hits landing," I think referencing the particle FX, but they are not doing damage.
yeah server tick rate not being stable is very bad for the hitreg, especially when it dips into the teens. coupled with low framerate, it's really a lot of guesswork aiming at things in close quarters.
I think<strike> Zex</strike> Mkilbride is just mistaking the option to smooth framerate to 90 / 60 / 30 / custom ( 29.97) to mean that FRAPS will 'fix' recorded video and make the video play with that amount of FPS... the option is to limit the FPS to those settings, not 'fix' and somehow add FPS.
IE...if your game is running > 100 FPS, but it fluctuates a lot it is better to limit the FPS to a stable number while recording so you dont have to deal with the fluctuating FPS in your videos.
My comment in a previous post regarding NS2HD's 'excessive fanboi vision' wasnt due to him having nice smooth FPS, my FPS is pretty smooth ( 30 - 25 FPS ) its the server ( tick rate drops from 30 in the rr down to 15 in Rock, and < 9 in Tram on the NSArmory servers ), my comment was more about NS2HD hiding issues with the game... example he often claims the flamer doesnt blind players anymore, we all know that when in the fire arc of the flamer all you see is a bright light. It is true that the after burn effects dont blind you anymore, but when being fired at by the flamer you cant see nowt.
Barlow has commented that that server plays bad compared to the test server in San Fransisco ( dont mean to sound ungratefull to the admin of those servers it is the better of the ones available to the EU ), which explains why NS2HD has such smooth gameplay ( probably the public server he records public matches on is also better setup ).
The hit reg in NS2 is probably also effected by the server tick rate , so its impossible to judge it now ...least till the servers are sorted. I can say that in my experience I have been very frustrated at the apparent lack of hit detection going on, firing on skulks running straight at me but even a full clip isnt enough to drop him, or shotgun blasts on a Fade doesnt seem to do anything much ( then again I have fought against Fades where I just circle strafe ( no jump needed ) the poor bugger and he cant land a hit and eventually just runs off ). It is also wierd though how Lerk spikes ( not sniper ones ) seem to do much better than LMG shots, I can often spike Marines to pieces but multiple clips of LMG shots doesnt 'seem' to do much to the lerks.
I would suggest that a hit noise indicator ( audio cue prefered ) be added, even temperarily so its easier to tell if your actually hitting something.
<!--quoteo(post=1821136:date=Jan 3 2011, 12:55 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Jan 3 2011, 12:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821136"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think Zex is just mistaking the option to smooth framerate to 90 / 60 / 30 / custom ( 29.97) to mean that FRAPS will 'fix' recorded video and make the video play with that amount of FPS... the option is to limit the FPS to those settings, not 'fix' and somehow add FPS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, that has<u> nothing to do with anything I've posted</u>.
<!--quoteo(post=1821136:date=Jan 3 2011, 12:55 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Jan 3 2011, 12:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821136"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->my comment was more about NS2HD hiding issues with the game...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think NS2HD was "hiding issues with the game," he made a reasonable guess as to the cause his failure to hit skulks, which simply happened to be incorrect. I'm sure in future videos you won't see him explaining away situations like that as merely caused by his own skill, because he seems like an honest person who is talented at creating commentary.
<!--quoteo(post=1821137:date=Jan 3 2011, 08:00 AM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 3 2011, 08:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821137"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, that has<u> nothing to do with anything I've posted</u>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're actually the one that brought it up.
<!--quoteo(post=1821106:date=Jan 3 2011, 03:07 AM:name=Mkilbride)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkilbride @ Jan 3 2011, 03:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821106"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For example, I could be running Crysis @ 35-40FPS, but record @ 60FPS, and the video would come out and look like I was getting 60FPS. This has been my experience, at least. Hence why NS2HD's videos can be misleading to some because they don't know of Fraps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which was incorrect in the first place, as I pointed out, while it is possible with recorded demos, it is not possible with live gameplay. Fraps does not smooth or raise the framerate, it is limited by the framerate on screen while recording.
<!--quoteo(post=1821126:date=Jan 3 2011, 04:57 AM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 3 2011, 04:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821126"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That is a fair point in the abstract, but it is<u> not in any way relevant to the discussion we are having</u>. UW specifically said the problem with update rate is server -> client communication or quote "outgoing bandwidth" from the server. And not only that, but the server -> client communication is intentionally <i>capped</i> and thus would not increase even if your objection was correct. As posted on the first page of this thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Based on your OP and a post in another thread, zex, I take you have not played the beta. I simply think it's unreasonable to make judgments based solely on NS2HD's videos. My point being, yes, some people are experiencing server update issues, but some people are not. NS2HD may or may not be experiencing these issues, but they are not apparent through framerate and high latency in his videos. I, myself, have yet to experience unreasonable hit registration given my ping for that specific server.
I don't reject that there is an issue, but we should not immediately blame every missed bullet from every player on that one issue.
Someone mentioned Bad Company 2, which does not use hitscan weapons, but has bullets that travel. This makes hit registration considerably more complex. This just means you have to have a good connection and find a good server to have a good experience, and with all the good servers out there I haven't found this to be a problem. If you consistently have bad hit registration in BC2 across a variety of servers, I would probably suggest that the problem is on your end of the network.
The only time I see any NS2 server tick at 30 is in the ready room before the start of the next round. Anything close to 20 during the actual round is sweet. I've seen it drop into the single digits a lot, but this is less common with the more recent builds, unless someone spams 30 hydras.
<!--quoteo(post=1821143:date=Jan 3 2011, 01:48 PM:name=ArmadonRK)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ArmadonRK @ Jan 3 2011, 01:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821143"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're actually the one that brought it up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have not posted a single word about FRAPS in this thread or anywhere else, on the contrary I've specifically pointed out that framerate is irrelevant to what we are discussing. Please read more carefully and correct yourself.
Sorry Zex , my bad it was Mkilbride that was going on about FRAPS , sorry about that.
However , NS2HD does ... shall we say presents NS 2 more favourably in his videos, unfortunately if someone in the EU bought NS2 and played on say the <strike>NSArmory</strike> Armory Chambers servers ( which have the lowest ping and most players at prime UK playtime ) their experience would be a lot different. As I mentioned he claims the blinding by flamers is sorted, unless my game is busted and the effects are glitching I get heavily blinded when I try approached a flamer wielding Marine and he spots me. I also think that a lot of his bad aim is more bad hit detection to be honest, thats why he is quick to talk about his bad aim, his bad pings etc etc. It is understandable as these issues will most likely get fixed so it doesnt help to have the viewer worry about the issues when considering NS as a purchase, so its more logical to explaing the issues away in a favourable manner.
Its just a player buying it now based on what he/she sees in NS2HD's vids ( in the EU at least ) will most likely not get the same gameplay and feel cheated at the moment. I dont feel cheated myself, I had many a fun hour in NS1 so I got my moneys worth long ago and I do trust UWE to sort out the current faults but others may not be so understanding I fear.
One solution may be to have UWE put up some regional official servers that will perform as well as the test server, that way one could point out that community based servers are subject to setup issues.
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
for europe the armory chamber servers are great, at least from switzerland i have a nice ping and the server seems to have good hardware (much less lagging than with other servers).
Arrgh , those ( Armory Chamber servers ) are the ones I meant to say... I get so confused with NSArmory , Arms Lab , Armory Chamber . I got a memory like a sieve :(
Asraniel, can you play on Tram without the stuttering and rubberbanding ?
what is really the point of this discussion? yes, it's an unfinished game, hit detection IS bad, there. now what? <b>what is there to discuss really?</b>
the game and engine have been built from scratch, the netcode has very recently been coded/created and is only in it's "childhood stage". zex, your prime example with the 1:40 skulk, if you actually listen, ns2hd says it's a different skulk = full hitpoints. and the 3:30 shotgun at point blank, if you use your eyes, you see ns2hd flinching (from excitement?) like a total nub when he shoots so the crosshair is actually way off the skulk both shots!
how about also considering all the cases where hit detection actually WORKS?
fraps CANNOT improve performance if the hardware without fraps is already used to the max, it can only DECREASE fps. if that's too technical for you: would your car go faster if you attached a trailer to it?
Latency has nothing to do with hit detection. It only matters when both players are firing at each other exactly the same way then one with higher latency will die first. As long as your latency is below lag compensation limit (1000 ms by default in Source) you're fine.
<!--quoteo(post=1821181:date=Jan 3 2011, 04:20 PM:name=weezl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weezl @ Jan 3 2011, 04:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821181"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->what is really the point of this discussion? yes, it's an unfinished game, hit detection IS bad, there. now what? <b>what is there to discuss really?</b> the game and engine have been built from scratch, the netcode has very recently been coded/created and is only in it's "childhood stage".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nothing, really, this thread ended up helping out NS2HD with the accuracy of his video commentary, thats all.
<!--quoteo(post=1821181:date=Jan 3 2011, 04:20 PM:name=weezl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weezl @ Jan 3 2011, 04:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821181"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->zex, your prime example with the 1:40 skulk, if you actually listen, ns2hd says it's a different skulk = full hitpoints.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What I said happened is exactly what happened, a full rifle clip is fired at a skulk running in a straight line and attacking a building. Not sure what your point is.
<!--quoteo(post=1821181:date=Jan 3 2011, 04:20 PM:name=weezl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weezl @ Jan 3 2011, 04:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821181"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and the 3:30 shotgun at point blank, if you use your eyes, you see ns2hd flinching (from excitement?) like a total nub when he shoots so the crosshair is actually way off the skulk both shots!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then why are hit FX being played, i.e. blood coming out of the skulk with every shot, and NS2HD says "I can see the hits on the skulk?" This discussion is played out indeed, and you Sir are not adding anything to it.
<!--quoteo(post=1821093:date=Jan 3 2011, 02:58 PM:name=Mkilbride)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkilbride @ Jan 3 2011, 02:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821093"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, I get that, but why would there be spread without recoil? That's not how it works, you get rid of muzzle climb, and bam, all your shots go where you place em. Not how it works, it seems, there is bullet deviation, you could attribute this to bullet physics, but none of the maps are big enough for that. Most guns start dipping @ 300 yards, 600 yards, and 800 yards, unless it's a high powered rifle.
I'd expect future weapons to be of higher caliber than even our rifles, and have way less bullet drop due to new firing systems. I mean hell, we have recoil less rifles today that can fire .45 rounds at the same spot, full auto, 100% of the time. That's TODAY. So yes, probably by whatever future year this game is, recoil will be gone most likely, but so then why does the gun spread?
I know NS2 is not a realistic game, or even attempting to be(bunny hopping), but still, if there is no recoil your shots should always go where you place them. Or there should be some method for the spread to be shown, so you can do short controlled bursts. Currently I've found doing short controlled bursts is a good way to die. Going fully auto seems the best method as of the current beta. And the clip drains in less than two seconds, so it's kinda a crap shoot. It took longer in NS1 to drain the clip, but the same no recoil thing existed, but there was no spread.
<b>I'm jus saying. It's a problem with lag, hit detection, ect.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <b>This</b> is totally <u>unrelated</u> to the above. I don't know what leap of logic you're making to connect the two.
There are two "strange" things by necessity for this game: No muzzle climb - it would be impossible to <u>aim</u> at quick-moving aliens if your crosshair didn't go where it should go (where <u>you</u> aim it). Bullet spread - this is essentially a crutch; because it's very hard to actually aim at a moving skulk with your crosshair, there needs to be error, in order to give <u>you</u> room for error. Having said that, the bullet spread is too extreme at the moment. Those are the gameplay reasons. Now, you can bull###### the rest. Let's assume there is recoil, but it doesn't lead to muzzle climb for whatever reason (reaction forces act almost directly along the barrel? who knows), instead it results in bullet spread, due to minor random 'shaking', vibration of the rifle due to recoil; so although the vertical recoil isn't present, it doesn't mean it's absolutely recoil-less.
Your brain can only process so many frames per second.
But why does an fps faster than my brain can process mean a better experience?
This has to do with the current state of the game. I shoot at you and you bite at me but since my computer runs at 60fps and yours runs at 24fps i kill you not because i can process more of what i see than you can, but because the frames i see and am processing are more up to date than the frames you are seeing and processing.
As mentioned in this thread, there could be some technical problems causing the difficulties in taking down a Skulk. I'm pretty confident the lag compensation system is working properly for hit detection, however it's possible that something in the game code is feeding it the wrong data (working on a tool to verify the data).
One thing I think also could be making it more difficult is the way that the Skulk animates when strafing. In the current build his entire body swings to the left or right during strafing which caused your target to shift a lot. We've revised the animations so that his body stays oriented the same way and only his legs animated differently. This is similar to how NS worked and will be in Build 161.
There are other possibilities as well, so this is a true multidisciplinary problem. Skulk versus marine and commander/player interaction are the two big focuses on the game play side, so this hasn't gone unnoticed.
<!--quoteo(post=1821324:date=Jan 4 2011, 01:09 AM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Max @ Jan 4 2011, 01:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821324"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We're currently working on this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No doubt! I didn't make this thread to hassle you guys, I was just trying to confirm what I thought I was seeing in the youtube vids.
<!--quoteo(post=1821324:date=Jan 4 2011, 02:09 AM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Max @ Jan 4 2011, 02:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821324"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In the current build his entire body swings to the left or right during strafing which caused your target to shift a lot. We've revised the animations so that his body stays oriented the same way and only his legs animated differently. This is similar to how NS worked and will be in Build 161.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> thank god this is "fixed" the skulk wailing and flailing everywhere was insane the acceleration must have been insane, and completely unphysical
<!--quoteo(post=1821055:date=Jan 3 2011, 05:57 AM:name=Mkilbride)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkilbride @ Jan 3 2011, 05:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821055"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not as bad as Battlefield 2, but it's not as good as NS1, either. But that has to do alot with lag, low FPS, ectera.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> yeah, i think if they used the source engine they where already done with ns2 :( I hate the flamer so much.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2011
Could aliens please at least get an "easymode" or AOE weapon for now? Heavy sentry defense and flame throwers are killing the fun for the aliens atm. Aliens cannot break through sentries at the speed marines can once grenades and flamers are researched. Combined with the flame thrower shooting through walls bug and the its blinding effect (not to mention obscene residue damage), frankly I get quite fed up with testing after one game per day.
A simple temporary fix like extending Fades' attack range, or increase Spit damage against structures would make playing as alien more tolerable, until Onos is unlocked.
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
edited January 2011
i usually don't have a problem to win in a alien team if my team plays well. A good combination of skulks/lerks/and fades usually breaks every marine defense (backed up by a few crags around the corner).
<!--quoteo(post=1821414:date=Jan 4 2011, 02:31 PM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price @ Jan 4 2011, 02:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821414"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yeah, i think if they used the source engine they where already done with ns2 :( I hate the flamer so much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the source engine was and is still one of the best in physics and netcode, and it never needed high-end-pcs. but it is really old. it's time for new top-engines. spark looks really great. u could never do atmospheres like that in source, without dynamic lightning etc.. maybe spark could be the new source, let's just wait until the client and server-lags are gone. I'm sure the source-engine also lagged like that in early develepment.
and the flamethrower sucks now, but it will be cool.
edit: but they should have used havok instead of PhysX. I hate PhysX.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1821416:date=Jan 4 2011, 01:44 PM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Jan 4 2011, 01:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821416"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Could aliens please at least get an "easymode" or AOE weapon for now?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Khaara will get a bombard ability, well actually the Whip will get it. Your anti-structure right there.
<!--quoteo(post=1821430:date=Jan 4 2011, 04:15 PM:name=countbasie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (countbasie @ Jan 4 2011, 04:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821430"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the source engine was and is still one of the best in physics and netcode, and it never needed high-end-pcs. but it is really old. it's time for new top-engines. spark looks really great. u could never do atmospheres like that in source, without dynamic lightning etc.. maybe spark could be the new source, let's just wait until the client and server-lags are gone. I'm sure the source-engine also lagged like that in early develepment.
and the flamethrower sucks now, but it will be cool.
edit: but they should have used havok instead of PhysX. I hate PhysX.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> they use havok, they have already change it or not? In some news they said they use havok instead of physx. Anyway, yes i know the new engine is in all ways better, but you know how long valve working with a giant team on this engine? And now like 4 people work on a new engine, so if the engine is smooth like the source engine, the "spark-engine" is old. The source engine is still done and just need some changes with the code, so its done yet and not in like 1-2 years. Do you understand what my point is?
Whatever i like the new engine and i hope they can fix the stuff.
Edit: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/2010/11/ns2_build_154_released_havok_new_ui" target="_blank">Havok</a> <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Changed collision detection to use the Havok engine<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
This is false. It's possible you misunderstood what NS2HD was saying, or you're simply misinformed. The download rate from the server to the client is not affected by clientside FPS, but the update rate from the client to the server is absolutely limited by your framerate. The alternative is for the client to send information it doesn't have, ie, information it made up, ie, interpolated data. I am not a coder or a programmer, and I have no knowledge of the inner workings of the Spark engine, but given my experience with netcode in other games, I'm going to go ahead and say that it doesn't happen.
In a second, the client can only send as much data as it has, 1 packet (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong) for each frame it renders. If I understood this thread correctly, this is less than 33 per second at max in NS2, limited further by your framerate. In Source, for example, this is 33, 66 or 100. Having a consistently higher framerate than the server ticrate and a perfect network connection will result in no packet loss and the maximum possible communication between server and client. Obviously, the higher the ticrate, the more possible communication between server and client. 33 packets per second is not as much data as 66 per second is not as much as 100 per second. (Everyone in the thread seems to have a handle on this, but this is a note for those reading who might not be following.) The argument at play seems to be that the current ticrate is too low (if it is at 33 or lower, I agree, but whether this is the prevalent issue is also a point of contention).
With demo recordings it is possible for a video to show a higher framerate than the original gameplay, but since NS2HD records live gameplay, given there is no provision to record in NS2 at the moment, his framerate and therefore update rate are lowered to whatever framerate is possible with Fraps consuming precious system resources. What you see is what you get.
I play from Europe, often to American servers. The effect this has on my lag and hit registration is enormous, not just in NS2 but across many games. The difference between 40ms and 100ms latency is large, and 200ms larger still. So for NS2HD, playing cross-Pacific games with Fraps running to record in tandem, we should be taking everything into account when analyzing gameplay issues based on the videos alone.
Sorry to drag on this tangential argument, but I think it's important for everyone to wrap their heads around the networking principles at play if we're discussing what the issue is in NS2. Whether it's hit registration, netcode, or individual clients/connections/skill.
Hopefully we can get a quick word from UWE about this issue. Maybe a professional network coder can put me in my place. :)
[The above is all my understanding of netcode from primarily the Source, HL1 and Unreal engines. Once again, I am not a coder, programmer or network technician of any kind, just a long time gamer who has done a good deal of research. I apologize for any inaccuracies in the details.]
That is a fair point in the abstract, but it is<u> not in any way relevant to the discussion we are having</u>. UW specifically said the problem with update rate is server -> client communication or quote "outgoing bandwidth" from the server. And not only that, but the server -> client communication is intentionally <i>capped</i> and thus would not increase even if your objection was correct. As posted on the first page of this thread. But as you said,
<!--quoteo(post=1821125:date=Jan 3 2011, 09:44 AM:name=ArmadonRK)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ArmadonRK @ Jan 3 2011, 09:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821125"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The download rate from the server to the client is not affected by clientside FPS<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now I think this is where NS2 would profit from some sort of hit confirmation such as an X on the crosshair everytime a bullet lands on its target, like BC2 or most other FPS games. THis is what makes the fail of the hit detection noticeable in BC2, you see the enemy soldier flinch, blood spray but no X. Which means he took no damage, same with the knife. Some people may think that the X is not hardcore enough, or too much of a console crutch, but regardless it would make testing in the beta extremely helpful.
Then by all means, make it like L4D where you can only tell a hit by the immense amount of blood, lol.
You can actually see this happening in the video I keep citing. There are hit particle FX, like skulk blood drops, that are visible when the shotgun "hits" the skulk, but does no damage. NS2HD makes the comment that he "can see the hits landing," I think referencing the particle FX, but they are not doing damage.
IE...if your game is running > 100 FPS, but it fluctuates a lot it is better to limit the FPS to a stable number while recording so you dont have to deal with the fluctuating FPS in your videos.
My comment in a previous post regarding NS2HD's 'excessive fanboi vision' wasnt due to him having nice smooth FPS, my FPS is pretty smooth ( 30 - 25 FPS ) its the server ( tick rate drops from 30 in the rr down to 15 in Rock, and < 9 in Tram on the NSArmory servers ), my comment was more about NS2HD hiding issues with the game... example he often claims the flamer doesnt blind players anymore, we all know that when in the fire arc of the flamer all you see is a bright light. It is true that the after burn effects dont blind you anymore, but when being fired at by the flamer you cant see nowt.
Barlow has commented that that server plays bad compared to the test server in San Fransisco ( dont mean to sound ungratefull to the admin of those servers it is the better of the ones available to the EU ), which explains why NS2HD has such smooth gameplay ( probably the public server he records public matches on is also better setup ).
The hit reg in NS2 is probably also effected by the server tick rate , so its impossible to judge it now ...least till the servers are sorted.
I can say that in my experience I have been very frustrated at the apparent lack of hit detection going on, firing on skulks running straight at me but even a full clip isnt enough to drop him, or shotgun blasts on a Fade doesnt seem to do anything much ( then again I have fought against Fades where I just circle strafe ( no jump needed ) the poor bugger and he cant land a hit and eventually just runs off ).
It is also wierd though how Lerk spikes ( not sniper ones ) seem to do much better than LMG shots, I can often spike Marines to pieces but multiple clips of LMG shots doesnt 'seem' to do much to the lerks.
I would suggest that a hit noise indicator ( audio cue prefered ) be added, even temperarily so its easier to tell if your actually hitting something.
EDIT: Refered to the wrong poster , now fixed.
No, that has<u> nothing to do with anything I've posted</u>.
<!--quoteo(post=1821136:date=Jan 3 2011, 12:55 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Jan 3 2011, 12:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821136"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->my comment was more about NS2HD hiding issues with the game...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think NS2HD was "hiding issues with the game," he made a reasonable guess as to the cause his failure to hit skulks, which simply happened to be incorrect. I'm sure in future videos you won't see him explaining away situations like that as merely caused by his own skill, because he seems like an honest person who is talented at creating commentary.
You're actually the one that brought it up.
<!--quoteo(post=1821106:date=Jan 3 2011, 03:07 AM:name=Mkilbride)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkilbride @ Jan 3 2011, 03:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821106"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For example, I could be running Crysis @ 35-40FPS, but record @ 60FPS, and the video would come out and look like I was getting 60FPS. This has been my experience, at least. Hence why NS2HD's videos can be misleading to some because they don't know of Fraps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which was incorrect in the first place, as I pointed out, while it is possible with recorded demos, it is not possible with live gameplay. Fraps does not smooth or raise the framerate, it is limited by the framerate on screen while recording.
<!--quoteo(post=1821126:date=Jan 3 2011, 04:57 AM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 3 2011, 04:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821126"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That is a fair point in the abstract, but it is<u> not in any way relevant to the discussion we are having</u>. UW specifically said the problem with update rate is server -> client communication or quote "outgoing bandwidth" from the server. And not only that, but the server -> client communication is intentionally <i>capped</i> and thus would not increase even if your objection was correct. As posted on the first page of this thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Based on your OP and a post in another thread, zex, I take you have not played the beta. I simply think it's unreasonable to make judgments based solely on NS2HD's videos. My point being, yes, some people are experiencing server update issues, but some people are not. NS2HD may or may not be experiencing these issues, but they are not apparent through framerate and high latency in his videos. I, myself, have yet to experience unreasonable hit registration given my ping for that specific server.
I don't reject that there is an issue, but we should not immediately blame every missed bullet from every player on that one issue.
Someone mentioned Bad Company 2, which does not use hitscan weapons, but has bullets that travel. This makes hit registration considerably more complex. This just means you have to have a good connection and find a good server to have a good experience, and with all the good servers out there I haven't found this to be a problem. If you consistently have bad hit registration in BC2 across a variety of servers, I would probably suggest that the problem is on your end of the network.
I have not posted a single word about FRAPS in this thread or anywhere else, on the contrary I've specifically pointed out that framerate is irrelevant to what we are discussing. Please read more carefully and correct yourself.
However , NS2HD does ... shall we say presents NS 2 more favourably in his videos, unfortunately if someone in the EU bought NS2 and played on say the <strike>NSArmory</strike> Armory Chambers servers ( which have the lowest ping and most players at prime UK playtime ) their experience would be a lot different.
As I mentioned he claims the blinding by flamers is sorted, unless my game is busted and the effects are glitching I get heavily blinded when I try approached a flamer wielding Marine and he spots me.
I also think that a lot of his bad aim is more bad hit detection to be honest, thats why he is quick to talk about his bad aim, his bad pings etc etc.
It is understandable as these issues will most likely get fixed so it doesnt help to have the viewer worry about the issues when considering NS as a purchase, so its more logical to explaing the issues away in a favourable manner.
Its just a player buying it now based on what he/she sees in NS2HD's vids ( in the EU at least ) will most likely not get the same gameplay and feel cheated at the moment. I dont feel cheated myself, I had many a fun hour in NS1 so I got my moneys worth long ago and I do trust UWE to sort out the current faults but others may not be so understanding I fear.
One solution may be to have UWE put up some regional official servers that will perform as well as the test server, that way one could point out that community based servers are subject to setup issues.
EDIT: added some more to this post
I got a memory like a sieve :(
Asraniel, can you play on Tram without the stuttering and rubberbanding ?
yes, it's an unfinished game, hit detection IS bad, there.
now what? <b>what is there to discuss really?</b>
the game and engine have been built from scratch, the netcode has very recently been coded/created and is only in it's "childhood stage".
zex, your prime example with the 1:40 skulk, if you actually listen, ns2hd says it's a different skulk = full hitpoints.
and the 3:30 shotgun at point blank, if you use your eyes, you see ns2hd flinching (from excitement?) like a total nub when he shoots so the crosshair is actually way off the skulk both shots!
how about also considering all the cases where hit detection actually WORKS?
fraps CANNOT improve performance if the hardware without fraps is already used to the max, it can only DECREASE fps.
if that's too technical for you: would your car go faster if you attached a trailer to it?
yes, it's an unfinished game, hit detection IS bad, there.
now what? <b>what is there to discuss really?</b>
the game and engine have been built from scratch, the netcode has very recently been coded/created and is only in it's "childhood stage".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nothing, really, this thread ended up helping out NS2HD with the accuracy of his video commentary, thats all.
<!--quoteo(post=1821181:date=Jan 3 2011, 04:20 PM:name=weezl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weezl @ Jan 3 2011, 04:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821181"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->zex, your prime example with the 1:40 skulk, if you actually listen, ns2hd says it's a different skulk = full hitpoints.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What I said happened is exactly what happened, a full rifle clip is fired at a skulk running in a straight line and attacking a building. Not sure what your point is.
<!--quoteo(post=1821181:date=Jan 3 2011, 04:20 PM:name=weezl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weezl @ Jan 3 2011, 04:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821181"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and the 3:30 shotgun at point blank, if you use your eyes, you see ns2hd flinching (from excitement?) like a total nub when he shoots so the crosshair is actually way off the skulk both shots!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then why are hit FX being played, i.e. blood coming out of the skulk with every shot, and NS2HD says "I can see the hits on the skulk?" This discussion is played out indeed, and you Sir are not adding anything to it.
I'd expect future weapons to be of higher caliber than even our rifles, and have way less bullet drop due to new firing systems. I mean hell, we have recoil less rifles today that can fire .45 rounds at the same spot, full auto, 100% of the time. That's TODAY. So yes, probably by whatever future year this game is, recoil will be gone most likely, but so then why does the gun spread?
I know NS2 is not a realistic game, or even attempting to be(bunny hopping), but still, if there is no recoil your shots should always go where you place them. Or there should be some method for the spread to be shown, so you can do short controlled bursts. Currently I've found doing short controlled bursts is a good way to die. Going fully auto seems the best method as of the current beta. And the clip drains in less than two seconds, so it's kinda a crap shoot. It took longer in NS1 to drain the clip, but the same no recoil thing existed, but there was no spread.
<b>I'm jus saying. It's a problem with lag, hit detection, ect.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>This</b> is totally <u>unrelated</u> to the above. I don't know what leap of logic you're making to connect the two.
There are two "strange" things by necessity for this game:
No muzzle climb - it would be impossible to <u>aim</u> at quick-moving aliens if your crosshair didn't go where it should go (where <u>you</u> aim it).
Bullet spread - this is essentially a crutch; because it's very hard to actually aim at a moving skulk with your crosshair, there needs to be error, in order to give <u>you</u> room for error. Having said that, the bullet spread is too extreme at the moment.
Those are the gameplay reasons. Now, you can bull###### the rest. Let's assume there is recoil, but it doesn't lead to muzzle climb for whatever reason (reaction forces act almost directly along the barrel? who knows), instead it results in bullet spread, due to minor random 'shaking', vibration of the rifle due to recoil; so although the vertical recoil isn't present, it doesn't mean it's absolutely recoil-less.
Your brain can only process so many frames per second.
But why does an fps faster than my brain can process mean a better experience?
This has to do with the current state of the game. I shoot at you and you bite at me but since my computer runs at 60fps and yours runs at 24fps i kill you not because i can process more of what i see than you can, but because the frames i see and am processing are more up to date than the frames you are seeing and processing.
Relevant to what?
As mentioned in this thread, there could be some technical problems causing the difficulties in taking down a Skulk. I'm pretty confident the lag compensation system is working properly for hit detection, however it's possible that something in the game code is feeding it the wrong data (working on a tool to verify the data).
One thing I think also could be making it more difficult is the way that the Skulk animates when strafing. In the current build his entire body swings to the left or right during strafing which caused your target to shift a lot. We've revised the animations so that his body stays oriented the same way and only his legs animated differently. This is similar to how NS worked and will be in Build 161.
There are other possibilities as well, so this is a true multidisciplinary problem. Skulk versus marine and commander/player interaction are the two big focuses on the game play side, so this hasn't gone unnoticed.
No doubt! I didn't make this thread to hassle you guys, I was just trying to confirm what I thought I was seeing in the youtube vids.
thank god this is "fixed"
the skulk wailing and flailing everywhere was insane
the acceleration must have been insane, and completely unphysical
yeah, i think if they used the source engine they where already done with ns2 :(
I hate the flamer so much.
A simple temporary fix like extending Fades' attack range, or increase Spit damage against structures would make playing as alien more tolerable, until Onos is unlocked.
Sincerely Yours
I hate the flamer so much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the source engine was and is still one of the best in physics and netcode, and it never needed high-end-pcs. but it is really old. it's time for new top-engines. spark looks really great. u could never do atmospheres like that in source, without dynamic lightning etc.. maybe spark could be the new source, let's just wait until the client and server-lags are gone. I'm sure the source-engine also lagged like that in early develepment.
and the flamethrower sucks now, but it will be cool.
edit: but they should have used havok instead of PhysX. I hate PhysX.
Khaara will get a bombard ability, well actually the Whip will get it. Your anti-structure right there.
and the flamethrower sucks now, but it will be cool.
edit: but they should have used havok instead of PhysX. I hate PhysX.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
they use havok, they have already change it or not?
In some news they said they use havok instead of physx.
Anyway, yes i know the new engine is in all ways better, but you know how long valve working with a giant team on this engine?
And now like 4 people work on a new engine, so if the engine is smooth like the source engine, the "spark-engine" is old.
The source engine is still done and just need some changes with the code, so its done yet and not in like 1-2 years.
Do you understand what my point is?
Whatever i like the new engine and i hope they can fix the stuff.
Edit:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/2010/11/ns2_build_154_released_havok_new_ui" target="_blank">Havok</a>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Changed collision detection to use the Havok engine<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->