Please don't do anything drastic to marine/skulk balance

TigTig Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71674Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
edited January 2011 in NS2 General Discussion
<div class="IPBDescription">wait and watch</div>the title says it all.

dynamic lighting and much more complicated, propped levels = better ambush spots.

the lag hurts most marines and the new backpedal nerf is having noobs getting slaughtered by skulks.

all i'm saying is UWE should wait a patch or two to address skulk vs. marine.

i can kill skulks just fine. most of the people i see complaining about skulks being op don't ever pull out their pistols or use their flashlights or even wait for another marine to engage aliens with them.

solve the lag and this alleged skulk vs. marine balance issue will be solved. please don't do anything silly and fix something that isn't really broken. if you fix anything, address level 1 leap glitching (jumping and leaping at the same time while aiming up a bit). maybe 40% backwards speed becomes 60% as many of us have said (even though people just need to learn when to fight and when to turn and flee)

edit: speeling
«1

Comments

  • ASnogarDASnogarD Join Date: 2003-10-24 Member: 21894Members
    I agree , tweaking the balance at this time before sorting out the lag and hit detection will result in unfair situations later when lag and hit detection is fixed.
    Its not like Skulks are 1 hitting Marines with imba bites, its that Marine bullets are simply not registering on Skulks.

    ... though tightening up the LMG spread , and doubling the energy costs of Lerk rapid fire spikes and spores will make Marine play more even I think.
  • GrapeVineGrapeVine Join Date: 2006-12-01 Member: 58803Members
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->solve the lag and this alleged skulk vs. marine balance issue will be solved<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I agree with this. The only problem I have with skulks when I play as a marine is their fast movement + lag makes them hard to kill. Sometimes when I'm on a good server where nobody lags I can kill skulks like a bows.
  • peregrinusperegrinus Join Date: 2010-07-16 Member: 72445Members
    UWE can play without much/any lag so they're in a good position to work on balance.
  • juicejuice Join Date: 2003-01-28 Member: 12886Members, Constellation
    edited January 2011
    The problem is INPUT-OUTPUT latency. It takes forever to swing your view around and it feels like driving a tank. If you examine the actual time from mouse movement to view movement, it feels huge, like 100 ms. This is true on the different machines I have access to, with 60 fps and with 30 fps. If you assume zero input latency and zero output latency, with 100 fps you still have an average of 5 ms of input-output latency, because of the 10 ms time between frames. If you have just 25 fps, it's an average of 20 ms of input output latency, BUT if you THEN add a substantial actual input latency, and/or have an extra frame of delay, it gets unmanageable. Remember, input-output delay is much more sensitive than actual internet latency, because that is compensated and I/O latency is not. This is why skulks can own, they just dodge around or jump and you have to re-acquire your crosshairs on them and "wait" for the view to react. However, marines move slow enough that skulks can predict movement and adjust their crosshairs accordingly.

    It's nothing like NS1.
  • HeistHeist Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7922Members
    I agree that the mouse movement feels slower, the rooms and corridors are shorter/smaller, and the maps are darker. When a skulk is close to you I feel it's extremely hard to spin around and find the skulk again. Usually game over once the skulk reaches you. It wasn't that difficult in NS1.
  • tyrael64tyrael64 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70551Members
    edited January 2011
    yea agree, is the lag imput
    and maybe the low server tick..
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members
    edited January 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1822076:date=Jan 6 2011, 11:10 PM:name=Heist)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heist @ Jan 6 2011, 11:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822076"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree that the mouse movement feels slower, the rooms and corridors are shorter/smaller, and the maps are darker. When a skulk is close to you I feel it's extremely hard to spin around and find the skulk again. Usually game over once the skulk reaches you. It wasn't that difficult in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    In addition to this:

    I think a good feeling collision system is pretty crucial in melee range fights. It's a lot easier to hit things when you've got a good grasp on where the lifeform can go and when it's going to bump into you. I've got a pretty low FPS, so I'm not sure how the collisions feel at best, but at least so far they've seemed a lot less reliable than in NS1.

    On lower skills it basically means that the skulk reliably collides into you and you can take some free shots at it. On higher skill levels the skulk dodge prediction becomes a bigger factor.
  • schkorpioschkorpio I can mspaint Join Date: 2003-05-23 Member: 16635Members
    edited January 2011
    yep for sure.

    not suitable level design, and lag = pwning skulks :)

    atm its impossible to keep your crosshair on a moving skulk - the game just isnt smooth enough.

    and the tight cramped map Rockdown, well its just not suitable.



    i reckon you need to be able to see skulk foot step holes in the walls so that you can tell if a skulk might have crawled up there.



    also early on, hand grenades would be great for clearing out ceiling areas
  • thecowsaysmoothecowsaysmoo Join Date: 2008-02-02 Member: 63557Members
    agreed 100%, balance takes time, and constantly changing the balance makes it harder. Leave it be for a while.
  • BriligBrilig Join Date: 2009-01-01 Member: 65938Members
    edited January 2011
    I'd have to say its a lag, and framerate issue as well. It has been really hard for me to hit a moving skulk atm, due to framerate/lag. When I have caught a skulk holding still muching on power nodes or whatnot they died pretty quick to lmg fire, and really quick to pistol fire.
  • zexzex Join Date: 2009-10-07 Member: 68978Members
    hit detection problems, that is all.

    hypothetically it should affect humans and aliens in the same way, but given that skulks move so fast it's a serious disadvantage for humans.
  • McGlaspieMcGlaspie www.team156.com Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 73044Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester
    +1

    /signed

    etc.


    Too many other issues are clouding the "true" state of game balance right now.


    @peregrinus: While you are correct. Keep in mind where the bulk of UW's user feedback is coming from: People experiencing all the current problems, not a LAN non-lag environment. So, potentially small issues can get exaggerated. I'm not stating this as fact, just expressing my opinion.
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    What are you all talking about, UWE has been changing marine/skulk balance in every patch. As has been noted, they can both fix the lag and balance at the same time, because different people are working on it. Also, its silly to wait until every lag and framerate issue is solved to balance the game because someone will always join a distant server with subpar hardware. The better solution is to devise balancing solution that eliminate (or at least minimize) the need for having low ping/high framerates.

    <!--quoteo(post=1822106:date=Jan 6 2011, 04:52 PM:name=thecowsaysmoo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (thecowsaysmoo @ Jan 6 2011, 04:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822106"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->agreed 100%, balance takes time, and constantly changing the balance makes it harder. Leave it be for a while.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I found this statement especially ironic. Balancing takes time because you constantly need to change it. Its mostly a trial and error process that needs constant tweaking and feedback from playtesters.
  • SehzadeSehzade Join Date: 2010-12-29 Member: 76024Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1822122:date=Jan 7 2011, 01:29 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jan 7 2011, 01:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822122"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I found this statement especially ironic. Balancing takes time because you constantly need to change it. Its mostly a trial and error process that needs constant tweaking and feedback from playtesters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    it needs time because if you change sth players need to adapt first. try new stuff and get to know the changes. and after some time when everyone is used to these changes you can start to evaluate and elaborate.
    so changing the balance constantly is not the right way to do so..because players have no time to adapt. so you don't know how the changes affected the gameplay for sure.

    hence you need both
    time to settle after a patch and constant tweaking (after said time)
  • NurEinMenschNurEinMensch Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14056Members, Constellation
    +1 What others have said. Current perception of balance is based on laggy game play on tiny rockdown. Lag free game play on actual release maps may already be balanced with the current settings.
  • LazerLazer Join Date: 2003-03-11 Member: 14406Members, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
    Going to sound a bit redundant but ya skulks not dying is definitely from lag. Still don't agree with the amount of backpedal nerf (feels ridiculous right now with leaping skulks from the start) but don't see a need to attempt 'balancing' the skulk v marine issue unless its by increasing the backpedal speed so it's slightly slower than fade walk (so fades can catch marines). Plus I'd much rather see more of the other game play tasks out of the way since there's gameplay code causing lag on top some of the more deeper rooted engine issues (often console spam is from bad LUA calls). I mean just fixing some of these other issues in themselves could potentially fix this one since it's mostly due to lag anyway.
  • MkilbrideMkilbride Join Date: 2010-01-07 Member: 69952Members
    It should only take about a third of a clip to kill a skulk, not the entire clip + Pistol. :P
  • _Thresh__Thresh_ Join Date: 2008-01-11 Member: 63385Members
    Lag

    +

    Rines feel like tanks

    +

    Slow weapon switching
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1822126:date=Jan 6 2011, 05:37 PM:name=Sehzade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sehzade @ Jan 6 2011, 05:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822126"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it needs time because if you change sth players need to adapt first. try new stuff and get to know the changes. and after some time when everyone is used to these changes you can start to evaluate and elaborate.
    so changing the balance constantly is not the right way to do so..because players have no time to adapt. so you don't know how the changes affected the gameplay for sure.

    hence you need both
    time to settle after a patch and constant tweaking (after said time)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Is a week or two not enough time for this? As far as I can tell most current NS2 beta players adapt to the changes almost immediately or within a day or two of each patch. Also, we can't playtest more advanced strategies (such as fade/lerk v gl/ft) as much because the initial marine v skulk matchup is so imbalanced.
  • TigTig Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71674Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    <!--quoteo(post=1822162:date=Jan 6 2011, 08:54 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jan 6 2011, 08:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822162"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is a week or two not enough time for this? As far as I can tell most current NS2 beta players adapt to the changes almost immediately or within a day or two of each patch. Also, we can't playtest more advanced strategies (such as fade/lerk v gl/ft) as much because the initial marine v skulk matchup is so imbalanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    i really don't think its that imbalanced. the lag just heavily favors skulks.
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited January 2011
    The mouse movement is definitely not at all as responsive as it should be, but it's playable, the other performance issues should be higher priority right now.
  • twilitebluetwiliteblue bug stalker Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited January 2011
    Yep, turning 180 degrees in only 10 frames make it difficult to track fast moving Skulks.

    On the other hand, I wonder if the game would be more interesting, if Skulks are made tougher, but take 3 bites to take down a marine. At the moment, it only takes a Skulk 0.45 second to kill a marine with 2 bites, but only has the health to take about 1 second of rifle fire (adjusted for accuracy).
  • FocusedWolfFocusedWolf Join Date: 2005-01-09 Member: 34258Members
    edited January 2011
    The skulks are far to hard to kill right now. They are almost as impossible to kill as a vent camping lerk. The skulks could be nerfed all the way down to 1% health/armor and still be as effective as the current OP skulks due to their high mobility (and only the noob skulks are dieing to rifles... the pros never get hit).

    That can literally rush base and end the game at the start of the round if they so desired. Notice how such a feet is close to impossible for the marines.

    They can kill a marine in about 2-3 bites (which comes down to about 1-second to kill a marine).

    They have high armor and even dieing isn't a problem because they can respawn and race back to fight the same marine that just killed them in about 5-10 seconds.

    They can bite non-stop WHILE JUMPING AROUND like a rabbit from hell. Their's no concept of ammunition or armories or reloading or even an adrenaline cool down.

    -------------------------------------------------

    The OP nature of the skulk is best demonstrated by how they do not need to rely soley on stealth and tricks to win (sure they can, and make their characters even more successful... but the characteristic NS1 "skulking/parasiting-from-a-distance/antagonizing/stealth" behavior is not necessary and THAT is the problem). They can go into marine start, with confidence of getting 3 or more kills, at any stage of the game prior to flamethrower, and 1 good skulk can easily destroy a ip or armory without dieing + kill the commander if he logs out of the cc.

    The ###### nerfed marine turrets are no help either. It takes a significant number of turrets to properly defend marine start, and skulks seem to have no trouble at all getting on/behind them and taking them out.

    The marines are refraining from fighting the skulk and are now preferring long range attacks and stationary camping tactics where possible, because distance is the only advantage of the marine and close quarters is certain death.
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1822269:date=Jan 7 2011, 01:20 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Jan 7 2011, 01:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822269"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The skulks are far to hard to kill right now. They are almost as impossible to kill as a vent camping lerk. The skulks could be nerfed all the way down to 1% health/armor and still be as effective as the current OP skulks due to their high mobility (and only the noob skulks are dieing to rifles... the pros never get hit).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Just once could you try saying something productive without all the hyperbole?
  • Heroman117Heroman117 Join Date: 2010-07-28 Member: 73268Members
    I don't know if it has been mentioned in this thread already but the devs have stated that they believe they have addressed the difficulty of target the fast moving skulk by changing the strafe animations. If you have ever looked in third person view in NS2 as a skulk you can see when you strafe your entire body instantly shifts orientation rapidly. It wasn't like this in NS1; in NS1 when a skulk strafed it just made the skulks legs run in that direction. The devs have now changed the animations back so know the actual skulk model isn't as fidgety and sporadic during game play which should help the problem a lot.
  • PSAPSA Join Date: 2009-10-21 Member: 69107Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1822270:date=Jan 7 2011, 07:40 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jan 7 2011, 07:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822270"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just once could you try saying something productive without all the hyperbole?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Still "blah blah aliens are op" stuff from a year ago from FW.

    anyways, I feel like I'd have more of a chance against the skulks if it wasn't for my ping, my low fps, and the mouse's unresponsiveness, as everyone has already mentioned. The current lack of gameplay polish definitely favors the skulks, but I'm sure it'll improve.
  • juicejuice Join Date: 2003-01-28 Member: 12886Members, Constellation
    Go into NS1, and set your max fps to 20.

    It's much more responsive than NS2. So it's not fps, it's mouse-to-display latency that is the problem. Where in the chain of events is the holdup? I don't know. But the engines feel very different because of this, and it makes it hard to kill skulks.
  • zexzex Join Date: 2009-10-07 Member: 68978Members
    edited January 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1822269:date=Jan 7 2011, 07:20 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Jan 7 2011, 07:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822269"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The skulks are far to hard to kill right now. They are almost as impossible to kill as a vent camping lerk. The skulks could be nerfed all the way down to 1% health/armor and still be as effective as the current OP skulks due to their high mobility (and only the noob skulks are dieing to rifles... the pros never get hit).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    For the love of Christ and all that is Holy, THERE IS AN ISSUE WITH HIT DETECTION ON RAPIDLY MOVING TARGETS. Skulks are impossible to hit, humans who are jumping around are impossible to hit. I have seen people byatch about both things, and the "solution" is always to nerf core movement. Just wait for the damn server-client performance to be fixed and stop suggesting stupid sheit that will make the game less fun!
  • GeneralBowserGeneralBowser Join Date: 2010-05-19 Member: 71801Members
    edited January 2011
    I hated skulk on NS1, it was withouth a doubt my least favorite class.

    Why are they ripping rines apart here? Simple leap at lvl 1..
    So rines need to get either shotguns (those can still 1 hit kill on very close combat) or play as a team, 1 guy in front rest covers..
    And they are just different then other normal fts, people aren't used to it so they need to learn.

    Furthermore I got better resolution and a bigger screen then when I played NS1 my vision is better when I bite..

    That being said, make small changes if you must but don't make skulk the most hated class in ns again for me :-(
  • UzguzUzguz Join Date: 2003-06-05 Member: 17016Members, Constellation
    I don't think it's been mentioned in this thread yet, but part of the problem with mouse responsiveness is that your aim direction replicates in both directions - that is, <b>the server periodically tells you where you're aiming.</b> It was especially noticeable back when the "backlog on join" problem was around - if you turned around while your client was catching up, the outdated "updates" from the server would snap you back to the way you were facing when you joined - but as far as I know it's still like that now.
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