Change to current lerk flight
Svenpa
Wait, what? Join Date: 2004-01-03 Member: 25012Members, Constellation
Wait, what? Join Date: 2004-01-03 Member: 25012Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">more oldschool</div>After searching around a bit I didn't anything related to the current flight, only what people wanted it to be before the beta and older things. Do tell if they are already planning to "fix" it.
Currently the lerk has a "deadzone" which is very small, the absolute horizon in front of it. If you look over it and jump, the lerk flies up, if you look below it, it flies down.
This is very wonky for having a controlled flight path, hitting vents etc. You are either smashing the ceiling, crashing to the floor or gliding slowly forward (death sentence). I suggest the old way of flying: Tap jump to flap and increase speed, look at any direction, fly towards that direction. This gives a whole lot more of options to dodge (zig zag a room for example) and hit tight spaces (just look at it!).
Anyone agree?
Currently the lerk has a "deadzone" which is very small, the absolute horizon in front of it. If you look over it and jump, the lerk flies up, if you look below it, it flies down.
This is very wonky for having a controlled flight path, hitting vents etc. You are either smashing the ceiling, crashing to the floor or gliding slowly forward (death sentence). I suggest the old way of flying: Tap jump to flap and increase speed, look at any direction, fly towards that direction. This gives a whole lot more of options to dodge (zig zag a room for example) and hit tight spaces (just look at it!).
Anyone agree?
Comments
Thinking of that, it would be reasonable to change the movement like they did.
But I don't want to create rumors, so I gotta point out: My thoughts, not based on facts. But I think it would make sense.
I am not sure, but I think the current flight model is that flapping means you get x speed in your eye direction (if you hold forward key), and x upwards, while gliding make you stay at same speed, making it stay towards you wyw direction even if you turn, but slow down if its to big of an angle between current velocity dir and eye dir (but if you turn smoothly, you can turn 180 degrees on a very small area and keep almost exactly same speed).
Atleast that is how it feels to me.
Actually, the old system could do this too, you just had to press space and no forward key to go straight up (IIRC). However hovering isn't exactly desirable when facing marines that have no problem shooting you whether you are on the ground or hovering mid air.
I propose a simpler, more intuitive flight model:
How about changing glide (holding <b>jump</b>) to preserve direction and momentum, regardless of the facing direction of the player (to make aiming attacks easier during flight). However, the Lerk's view will be limited to the frontal 180º (number can be tweaked for balance) hemisphere, so the Lerk will not appear to be shooting out of its behind.
Tapping <b>jump</b> while holding forward will make the Lerk fly in the facing direction, without the need to hold down jump. Holding either <b>left</b> and <b>right</b> movement key will momentarily change the yaw (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_principal_axes) of the Lerk, without inertia (just like strafing ground movement, except in the air).
<b>Back</b> movement could be change to apply an air brake (like on an aircraft) effect, so if you find yourself flying upward too fast (or in any undesirable direction), you can simply apply the brake to slow down (rather than having to turn, and frantically tap jump) and change direction quickly.
Tapping <b>jump</b> without any direction key will lift the Lerk straight up. Crouching during flight will lower the Lerk's height.
I hope my suggestion makes sense.
<img src="http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n638/tsalerk/Lerk02.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n638/tsalerk/Lerk01.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Edited: improved clarity
Edited: changed brake from Crouch to Back
Edited: added view angle limit while gliding
How about changing glide (holding jump) to preserve direction and momentum, regardless of the facing direction of the player. The current gliding behavior will be the default flight control (tap jump while holding forward to fly straight ahead). Crouch could be change to apply an air brake (like on an aircraft) effect, so if you find yourself flying upward too fast (or in any undesirable direction), you can simply apply the air brake (rather than having to turn, and frantically tap jump), and change direction quickly.
I hope my suggestion makes sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty good idea, but no way to fly directly up without looking up then right?
Thanks for reminding me of that. I've modified some of my ideas:
1. Kept (some of the) the current jumping and crouching effects. Tapping jump without any movement key will lift the Lerk straight up. Crouching during flight will lower the Lerk's height.
2. The Lerk will be able to aim with mouse-look without changing flight direction, by holding down the jump key. However, the Lerk's view will be limited to the frontal 180º (number can be tweaked for balance) hemisphere, so the Lerk will not appear to be shooting out of its behind.
A Lerk is tapping [Jump] while holding [Forward] to fly directly forward, then lets go of [Forward] and taps [Jump]; rather than flying -directly- up, he'll still maintain his horizontal momentum, but also move up.
I think I liked the air-brake idea for crouch better though.
Alternatively, you could have the direction key affect which direction you fly when you tap [Jump], so the air-brake would be [Jump]+[Back]. Then you could have the crouch lowering the Lerk's flight as normal. This also opens up the possibility of flying backwards as you shoot, and 'strafing' in the air too.
A Lerk is tapping [Jump] while holding [Forward] to fly directly forward, then lets go of [Forward] and taps [Jump]; rather than flying -directly- up, he'll still maintain his horizontal momentum, but also move up.
I think I liked the air-brake idea for crouch better though.
Alternatively, you could have the direction key affect which direction you fly when you tap [Jump], so the air-brake would be [Jump]+[Back]. Then you could have the crouch lowering the Lerk's flight as normal. This also opens up the possibility of flying backwards as you shoot, and 'strafing' in the air too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be almost identical to the current flight model though, wouldn't it?
I see the difference between your suggestion and my suggestion. I'll try to make some diagrams to illustrate the differences.
<img src="http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/3179/ns2lerkflightidea.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<!--quoteo(post=1823938:date=Jan 13 2011, 07:34 PM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Jan 13 2011, 07:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1823938"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That would be almost identical to the current flight model though, wouldn't it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would it? I don't know.
Would it? I don't know.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your MS Paint skills > my Adobe PS skills. It took me ages to finish my drawings.
Sorry, I was refering to this part of your post:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alternatively, you could have the direction key affect which direction you fly when you tap [Jump], so the air-brake would be [Jump]+[Back]. Then you could have the crouch lowering the Lerk's flight as normal. This also opens up the possibility of flying backwards as you shoot, and 'strafing' in the air too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I am not mistaken, your suggestion of air-brake sounds just like how it works in game right now, which is apply force in the opposite direction to the current one.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's great. Do we preserve momentum in case 1? For example,
A Lerk is tapping [Jump] while holding [Forward] to fly directly forward, then lets go of [Forward] and taps [Jump]; rather than flying -directly- up, he'll still maintain his horizontal momentum, but also move up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, the Lerk should not suddenly lose all his forward momentum, but rather gain upward momentum (and lose some foward speed if he was already at max speed foward). I think that should be quite intuitive for the player.
Or are you saying that, if you were moving forward, say, gliding (holding jump); then also pressing crouch would make you dip. Because I think you'd just fall if you simply didn't press any keys, so that part of crouch isnt really necessary.
Actually, I think I misunderstood your suggestion. Did you mean [Jump] + [Back] could function as a universal air-brake, which would kill any momentum? If that is the case, how about simplify it to just [Back]?
I have just loaded up NS2 and done a lot of testing flying as a Lerk. The current flight controls are quite inconsistent, and unlike what I had imagined. Eg. If you hold down [jump] and [forward], you can fly indefinitely without losing speed. But if you turn too quickly, you would lose speed and height, as if you hit an object.
My intention is to improve the flying experience for the Lerk to be as simple, and as close to ground based movement as possible. Although, when I first posted my model, it was not quite well thought out, so it was also quite a mess. I'll need to put my thinking cap on and sleep on it for a day.
However, I think that back + flap should not rly act as an airbrake, but actually give you momentum backwards, while maybe simply holding crouch would be an air brake (unlike the idea of the back key doing that).
If they want to make back be the brake key they would just have to make lerks into flying rines, seeing as their backwards slow you down even if you are in air and holding strafe, or simple strafing while holding back.
Also I wonder, irl, do marines with light armor really strafe faster than they go backwards (or go backwards slower than they go forward) :P?
If you're holding down a direction key, it'll give you acceleration in that direction. If you aren't holding any direction keys, it'll give you acceleration in the vertical direction.
If you had forward velocity, then flapping backward would reduce your velocity. If you were to keep flapping, your velocity would be zero, and then begin to go backward.
Of course, you would have to also have a bit of a deceleration in whatever velocity direction you were already travelling, so the momentum conservation is not too harsh; but not too much or it'll feel jarring.
Crouch as a forced quick-brake would be good though - it would simply decrease your velocity, regardless of which direction you were travelling. You could be flying backwards. It's the opposite to glide, basically.
Quick-diving doesn't really make a whole lot of sense though, as gravity is the only thing pulling you down. If you were flapping so that you'd move downward, that'd be something, though.
Spikes should have the rifle spread (now 3 degrees, previously 4 degrees), or worse (4 degrees), imo. Encourages closer combat.
And I meant that flapping backwards should accerelate backwards, my point was more about the fact it should not be an "universal airbrake" (I assume that means slow you down no matter what your direction is, aka what I think ctrl should be).
So even if you have a lot of speed, climbing back up again without flapping is an issue.
Also, a Lerks flight drops off based on turn angle. I think this should be dropped a little lower, so you can't just 'reverse' direction and keep flying, but perhaps make the angle a little easier.
So even if you have a lot of speed, climbing back up again without flapping is an issue.
Also, a Lerks flight drops off based on turn angle. I think this should be dropped a little lower, so you can't just 'reverse' direction and keep flying, but perhaps make the angle a little easier.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I noticed while gliding that Lerk's horizontal speed does not convert into upward vertical speed very well (while looking up).
As for the problem of losing momentum while turning too quickly, I propose a simple solution:
<!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->When a Lerk is in concact with a wall while holding down [jump], instead of falling to the ground, the Lerk could dig its claws onto the wall, and fall down slowly.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> This will allow the Lerk to continue gliding after hitting a wall, rather than losing control.
I took a look in Lerk.lua:
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->Lerk.kFlapUpImpulse = 4 // NS1 made this 2/3 of kFlapStraightUpImpulse
Lerk.kFlapStraightUpImpulse = 6<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
When I modified the first line to "Lerk.kFlapUpImpulse = 2", flying as Lerk suddenly became a lot smoother, due to the reduced upward force on each flap.
I don't see how it would boost close combat. If you consider the relative mobilities of a marine and a skulk/lerk. A marine firing at a skulk or lerk with the rifle is difficult because the skulk and lerk move so quickly and erratically. This is made easier by the rifle spread where you basically have a search-light of damage and you don't have to aim directly at a skulk, you can be slightly off.
On the other hand, the marines are, by comparison, sitting ducks. Having such a tight spike spread only encourages camping and firing from afar as it is not hard to aim at them. Increasing the spike spread will make it more difficult to deal damage from a distance, and will encourage you to get closer to deal damage. It won't affect the close combat at all, assuming all your spikes are still hitting.
I do believe that it should take two or three sniper-spikes to kill a marine, and the lerk should only have enough immediate energy for three sniper-spikes.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And I meant that flapping backwards should accerelate backwards, my point was more about the fact it should not be an "universal airbrake" (I assume that means slow you down no matter what your direction is, aka what I think ctrl should be).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then yes, that isn't what I meant. I explained my revised idea in detail.
have you tested this? I mean, have you changed it and played on a Lan game or something? if so we could have a simple and elegant solution.
have you tested this? I mean, have you changed it and played on a Lan game or something? if so we could have a simple and elegant solution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've already done some testing. Reducing the upward force of each flap while gliding (holding jump) makes the Lerk fly almost linearly in the facing direction, without unintentional updraft. I've also tried simulate the effect of "stick walls" by simply reducing the gravity of the Lerk while gliding. Bumping into walls feels a lot less punishing.
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->function Clamp(value, min, max)
return math.min(math.max(value, min), max)
end<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
Clamp should return the value, limited so min < value < max.
I'm gonna experiment with having zero flap up impulse while holding down a direction key (as soon as I make full sense of this code). The rationale behind it is that the flap up is inherent in maintaining whatever direction you want to travel. Ideally it'd come with accompanying animations, though...
I'd also like to get universal air-brake in as crouch. Currently crouch is swoop, as I understand it.
I may have to set gravity to zero when gliding, but restore gravity to the default (i think it's -24) while not gliding, and increase flap straight up impulse to counteract the increased gravity.
Hopefully the end result is a versatile, but easy-to-use flight model. It may lack some intuitiveness due to the lack of animations, though.
Currently trying to re-conceptualise my ideal flight model... Keeping the swoop ability could be useful, and use either "hold back" or "hold back + jump" as universal airbrake.
I'm gonna experiment with having zero flap up impulse while holding down a direction key (as soon as I make full sense of this code). The rationale behind it is that the flap up is inherent in maintaining whatever direction you want to travel. Ideally it'd come with accompanying animations, though...
I'd also like to get universal air-brake in as crouch. Currently crouch is swoop, as I understand it.
I may have to set gravity to zero when gliding, but restore gravity to the default (i think it's -24) while not gliding, and increase flap straight up impulse to counteract the increased gravity.
Hopefully the end result is a versatile, but easy-to-use flight model. It may lack some intuitiveness due to the lack of animations, though.
Currently trying to re-conceptualise my ideal flight model... Keeping the swoop ability could be useful, and use either "hold back" or "hold back + jump" as universal airbrake.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've tried that, and found it somewhat unrealistic, as it allows the Lerk to slow down to almost a hover without flapping (which could be useful :P).
My biggest complaint about the current flight model is that you cannot glide upward by looking up. It also kills your speed and makes you fall straight.
My other suggestions are to allow Lerk to temporarily accelerate with the 4 movement keys and the crouch key while gliding. But, the all the momentums except for the forward would quickly fade if the keys are not held down, so the Lerk will not slide out of control. Holding the Back key reduces the forward speed, the Left and Right keys allow strafing, and the Crouch key reduces heigh of the flight, but only while it is held down.
<img src="http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/3179/ns2lerkflightidea.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Hmm, I can see how you'd be able to literally hover in mid-air, though... If you can get your velocity in every direction to zero, then hold jump to glide, you would actually hover. Cool, but... undesirable. I'd say it's very hard to do unless you jumped straight up from the ground and held jump to 'glide', but that's not a reason not to fix it.
Could be (easily?) fixed if you add a condition where you can only glide if you are faster than a certain speed (say Lerk walk-speed), which makes sense, really. Gliding is a result of lift, which is a result of forward motion. Or is it buoyancy? Hmm...
Unsure about left and right lateral motion (whether flapping or gliding) though. Maybe I could limit it to like 1/4 of forward flap impulse.
Hmm, glide would be broken actually, since you could 'glide' straight up, which is not ideal. Might have to complicate things a bit, and have gravity actually oppose any motion you make to get it to work ideally. So gliding up would decrease your speed and eventually just result in you falling back down, and gliding down would increase your speed. Or, could possibly just limit the angles, so: Normal gravity between 60~90 degrees, Low gravity between 30~60 degrees, Zero gravity between 0~30 degrees.
Also, clash between back-flap and universal air-brake.
I think I'm gonna go familiarise myself with the current Lerk first.
Hmm, definitely the biggest issues for me are the too-powerful flap, the difficulty in changing direction and varying your speed (max speed is hectic), and the complete loss of speed and very quick drop when you hit something. The current flight-model actually has most of what I want.
Ideally, flying should become natural enough that you can also aim.
<ul><li>wasd+flap = accerelation in appropriate direction, and a small boost upwards (not as much as current tho). Like if a bird flapped to get in that direction.</li><li>flap = boost upwards.</li><li>Glide = convert your speed into speed in your eye direction (some loss depending on angle between currentdir and targetdir), also lower gravity a little. This should not have a speed limit, instead it should have a low airfriction (really low), which is not noticeable unless you move <b>really </b>fast. Sort of like a plane gliding without engines on, and got a gravity regulator to tweak it into a smotht feeling gravity.</li><li>wasd + glide = like gliding, but make target direction not the same way you aim, and instead in appropriate direction, using. From going forward to suddenly using S will obviously brake you as the angle is 180 degrees, resulting in a big loss. Alot like if a bird angled its head and wings while gliding. strafe or backwards gliding should also have higher friction, and alot less lift (more gravity, almost full if strafe gliding).</li><li>wasd = walk on ground, but in air it will also be usefull, as lerk should have alot air control, alot like how it is in most source games.
crouch = universal airbrake, no matter what direction you are going. Not swoop, as that can easily be done by gliding downwards (the gravity would obviously help speed you up alot).</li></ul>
Mor intuitive, and no limitations like "you cant aim to far away from your direction". Altough if you do aim far away from your direction while gliding (and holding appropriate wasd buttons to keep same direction) you will slow down faster than if you didnt.