UWE, what has happened?
WatchMaker
Join Date: 2003-09-26 Member: 21233Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-09-26 Member: 21233Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Charlie is off his rocker.</div><b>I know the developers avoid the I&S board, and that a wall of text is not appealing, but I hope that they have the patience to read what I've typed up here.</b>
To jump straight to the point, I believe NS2 is quickly digging itself into trouble and I am not alone. Many of the core gameplay mechanics of NS2 are functioning poorly and are rapidly pushing away old NS1 fans and potential NS2 fans. This thread will attempt to identify and address what reasons are preventing many from enjoying the game. I'm sure many people will not agree with me and that's understandable, but please realize I only want to help NS2 reach it's full potential. I'm going to cover a lot of topics, and throw in a few of my own suggestions on how to get started on fixing things.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><u>Intuitive design:</u><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
If I understand correctly, the idea of re-approaching the gameplay was meant to make the game more intuitive. <b>Instead of making the game more approachable, NS2 now has an even greater learning curve than NS1.</b> The new resource model, personal resource usage and value, multiple commanders, and power nodes. All of these have complicated the game in ways that have done little to improve on NS1's design flaws and instead have become additional hurdles for new players to jump. I follow NS2's updates religiously, and played since the very first release, yet I'm still confused by many gameplay mechanics when I enter a game! The goal of intuitive design has taken a back seat to new features, and we need it prioritized again. Here's an individual breakdown of some of the more confusing gameplay mechanics introduced by NS2 and a few of my own suggestions on how to remedy them:
<b>-New Resource Model:</b> I've played every update since the very first engine test, and I still don't have a clear idea on how Carbon and Plasma differ, or how they are generated. I'm guessing one is the superfluous resource for medkit and ammo spam and weapons, while the other is intended only for structures. If that is the case, that is a solid approach to some of the problems experienced in NS1, unfortunately it has been executed poorly and has virtually zero visual communication. <b>It may sound like I'm ignorant or unaware of much of NS2's new resource model mechanics: I am and that is exactly my point.</b> I've commanded several games to victory, and I still haven't reached a partial understanding! If I can't learn by playing, what purpose has all this intuitive re-designing been for?
My two cents on fixing things: Each time a resource is gained, visually communicated it in some way. Add a little +1 icon popping off the top of res-nodes that fly into a resource counter on the HUD. Or each time a marine kills a skulk. Literately ANYTHING of this nature will go a long way to informing players about the resources, how to obtain them, and how important they are.
<b>-Personal Resource Usage and Value:</b> Once again, I am confused about an aspect of a game I have been playing for quite some time now. When using the Armory as a marine, there is a number on the buy menu that determines what I can afford and what I cannot. <b>Beyond that, I have no idea how it works.</b> When I open up the armory menu, I just want to buy a gun. If I can, I will. If I cannot, then bringing up the buy menu was a complete waste of time that made me vulnerable and useless to my team. The same problem carries over to the Alien team. In NS1, as an Alien I valued my resources like gold and killing a marine felt like earning money. I had clear communication from a number on my screen and the costs of each evolved lifeform. In NS2, it's just 'kill marines because they shoot bullets at me', while intermittently check my evolve menu if I can evolve. On both sides, it feels as if the mechanics from NS1 have regressed into something far less effective. I'm okay with a new system, but it feels like the intuitive design has once again been neglected. <i>So little is being communicated.</i>
My two cents on fixing things: Remove personal Marine resources. Let the Commander stock the Armory, with marines 'free feeding' weapons. Keep the personal Alien resources, but communicate them in a clear way: Tell me when I gain personal resources. Tell me when I use personal resources. <i>[EDIT:] Many in this thread have suggested renaming the resources as well. I think this is a FANTASTIC idea.</i>
<b>-Multiple Commanders:</b> Even on a highly organized, effective team, having multiple Commanders has been nothing more than a frustration. There is zero visual communication between Commanders, so you have no idea what the other Commander is doing unless he’s actively using voice chat. While in a perfect world that wouldn’t be a problem, for the average public game, it is a nightmare. I have never been so overwhelmed with alerts that I needed a helping hand as the Commander. Even in situations where I was very busy, that rush of micro management is part of the joy that comes with the Commander experience. But truly, the largest draw back of having multiple Commanders is the impact it has had on authority. A single Commander meant he called the shots and directed the team toward a single unified goal. Now, if a selfish marine wants flamethrowers and the current Commander has a different plan, that marine can hop into a secondary Command Station and research flamethrowers on his own, undermining authority. <b>On that same note, the potential for griefing is near limitless now.</b>
My two cents on fixing things: One Primary Commander. If we absolutely need additional Commanders, giving the Primary Commander the ability to 'promote' people to use the other Command Chairs would be fantastic. Give me some sort of alert on my screen that informs me of the actions my fellow Commanders are taking. Even a simple "Commander #2 built an Armory!" would be a huge help.
<b>-Power Nodes:</b> Originally, a Commander's main priorities were clear cut: Direct your marines to cap nodes and to control territory. With the new additional Command Chairs and Power Nodes, these main priorities have become greatly divided. Powering on a room is important, but so is capping Resource Towers. Advancing your tech tree is important, but useless if you don't have power or the resources. Forcing the Commander to juggle these three currently feels very tedious, especially considering Power is only a weakness for Marines. The problem reflects in the foot soldiers on the Alien team as well. As a skulk, attacking the Power Node remains supreme, but it feels very unsatisfying to chomp one down only to see it rebuilt seconds later with virtually no impact. Considering I could have attacked the Command Chair/Armory/Observatory to regress their tech, or hit their Resource Tower and cost them precious resources, the Power Node seems to be a needless addition. Unfortunately, it's too effective to ignore. Often I'll see skulks rush a base and immediately begin attack different targets, with everyone hitting what they consider more vital. Dividing up priorities isn't a bad idea, it's great to see some new flavor added to the old formula, but the Power Nodes just aren't functioning in a fun and enjoyable way as they are now.
My two cents on fixing things: Combine Power Nodes and Resource Towers. This will narrow down the main priorities between 'Resources/Power' and 'Tech.'
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><u>The Marine Team:</u><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
The symbiotic relationship between Marine and Commander has suffered, primarily as a result of the MAC and Power Nodes. If I recall correctly, the MAC was originally the designated builder with Marines being the brawn. That didn’t work, so a change was made to let Marines build. Well, now Marines can out build MACs in almost every situation, and are not helpless and fragile. Power Nodes remain their only purpose, with them being ‘escorted’ around by Marines, yet most of the time they out race every sprinting marine that is supposed to cover them. And yet this works out fine. Most of the time a MAC does not need an escort. They are plentiful, and because they spawn at any Tech Point, they can often reach any destination very quickly with little opposition. They feel very disposable and somewhat insignificant. I've never really felt concerned over losing a MAC. It's a mechanic of NS2 that feels like it is adding a lot of complexity with very little payoff. Constantly redefining the MAC's role may be a sign it has no role to serve. <i>(Personally, I think if Resource Towers and Power Nodes were combined, the MAC would be excellent as a dedicated repair bot.)</i>
I’d also like to touch on one of my biggest personal NS2 gripes: The lockable doors are incredibly frustrating with their current implementation. This is primarily because the small lights on the doors fail to readily notify marines if it is currently locked or open. Take a look at Dead Space, when a door is locked, the entire door is framed in red, with a large red icon floating in the center. That functioned beautifully. The marines in NS2 have a hologram display built into their helmets, why can't it be used on the doors as well? To be honest, lockable doors are a perfect example of a great feature implemented in a far too basic form in the Beta which has resulted in them being counter productive to the whole testing process. Another being the Flamethrower. I understand these features are not finished products, but why implement them when even the Alien countermeasures are not present? Throwing half the recipe into the mix is having a negative impact on the game. Beta or not, frustrating and confusing those playing your game will not end well. Removing a few of these features until they are fleshed out a bit more would go a long way to removing some of the frustration many beta testers are experiencing.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><u>The Alien Team:</u><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
The exact same problem arises with the Gorge. I am continually reminded that the Gorge is incomplete, and that he'll play a larger role once DI is implemented, but where is DI? If it really is going to have such a large impact on the Gorge and the pace of the game, why did we ever reach BETA phase without it? As it stands now, the Gorge class has been greatly devalued by the introduction of the Alien Commander. I'm alright with giving the Gorge a new role, but spamming hydras and heal spray is not a role. His placing of hydra structures blurs his job with the Alien Commander and his heal spray is very underwhelming to use. His role is currently divided between support and offense, but he's fulfilling neither. Regardless of what DI is going to change, we're currently stuck in a very nasty limbo where only half the intended feature is implemented.
But the problems don't end with the incomplete Gorge or absent DI. Visual communication has also completely broken down on the Alien team. Nothing about the hive communicates to new players that it is a command station. Nothing shows what structures are few and which are many. It’s impossible to easily tell what upgrades have been purchased, both as a Commander and as a foot soldier. Many of these problems are absolutely killing the experience of the Alien team, and most of these reflect equally on the other team. As a marine, you can't tell if a skulk now has level 3 melee attacks or level 3 armor. Nothing communicates any of that. A new player, unaware of those upgrades, will be completely confused when skulks go from being a small threat to a complete terror. It's just another example of NS1's flaws returning.
[EDIT:] Aonomus has made an excellent post covering many topics I forgot to address here: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=112383&view=findpost&p=1824957" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1824957</a>
The lack of intuitive design and visual feedback in NS2 is really crippling it something terrible. It's causing a large number of players to walk away with poor reactions, who then spread their negative opinions somewhat heavy handed to potential buyers. I understand NS2 is in Beta, but many of these issues are what I would have expected resolved during Alpha, named many of NS1's original flaws. Overall, I'm worried about NS2 because I have faith it can still be a great game. Many of my fellow NS1 fans are already considering it a loss! I strongly disagree, so I've made this post with the intent of doing what I can to help.
<i>[EDIT:] "Off his rocker" is a silly expression, don't take it to heart, people. Sheesh.</i>
To jump straight to the point, I believe NS2 is quickly digging itself into trouble and I am not alone. Many of the core gameplay mechanics of NS2 are functioning poorly and are rapidly pushing away old NS1 fans and potential NS2 fans. This thread will attempt to identify and address what reasons are preventing many from enjoying the game. I'm sure many people will not agree with me and that's understandable, but please realize I only want to help NS2 reach it's full potential. I'm going to cover a lot of topics, and throw in a few of my own suggestions on how to get started on fixing things.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><u>Intuitive design:</u><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
If I understand correctly, the idea of re-approaching the gameplay was meant to make the game more intuitive. <b>Instead of making the game more approachable, NS2 now has an even greater learning curve than NS1.</b> The new resource model, personal resource usage and value, multiple commanders, and power nodes. All of these have complicated the game in ways that have done little to improve on NS1's design flaws and instead have become additional hurdles for new players to jump. I follow NS2's updates religiously, and played since the very first release, yet I'm still confused by many gameplay mechanics when I enter a game! The goal of intuitive design has taken a back seat to new features, and we need it prioritized again. Here's an individual breakdown of some of the more confusing gameplay mechanics introduced by NS2 and a few of my own suggestions on how to remedy them:
<b>-New Resource Model:</b> I've played every update since the very first engine test, and I still don't have a clear idea on how Carbon and Plasma differ, or how they are generated. I'm guessing one is the superfluous resource for medkit and ammo spam and weapons, while the other is intended only for structures. If that is the case, that is a solid approach to some of the problems experienced in NS1, unfortunately it has been executed poorly and has virtually zero visual communication. <b>It may sound like I'm ignorant or unaware of much of NS2's new resource model mechanics: I am and that is exactly my point.</b> I've commanded several games to victory, and I still haven't reached a partial understanding! If I can't learn by playing, what purpose has all this intuitive re-designing been for?
My two cents on fixing things: Each time a resource is gained, visually communicated it in some way. Add a little +1 icon popping off the top of res-nodes that fly into a resource counter on the HUD. Or each time a marine kills a skulk. Literately ANYTHING of this nature will go a long way to informing players about the resources, how to obtain them, and how important they are.
<b>-Personal Resource Usage and Value:</b> Once again, I am confused about an aspect of a game I have been playing for quite some time now. When using the Armory as a marine, there is a number on the buy menu that determines what I can afford and what I cannot. <b>Beyond that, I have no idea how it works.</b> When I open up the armory menu, I just want to buy a gun. If I can, I will. If I cannot, then bringing up the buy menu was a complete waste of time that made me vulnerable and useless to my team. The same problem carries over to the Alien team. In NS1, as an Alien I valued my resources like gold and killing a marine felt like earning money. I had clear communication from a number on my screen and the costs of each evolved lifeform. In NS2, it's just 'kill marines because they shoot bullets at me', while intermittently check my evolve menu if I can evolve. On both sides, it feels as if the mechanics from NS1 have regressed into something far less effective. I'm okay with a new system, but it feels like the intuitive design has once again been neglected. <i>So little is being communicated.</i>
My two cents on fixing things: Remove personal Marine resources. Let the Commander stock the Armory, with marines 'free feeding' weapons. Keep the personal Alien resources, but communicate them in a clear way: Tell me when I gain personal resources. Tell me when I use personal resources. <i>[EDIT:] Many in this thread have suggested renaming the resources as well. I think this is a FANTASTIC idea.</i>
<b>-Multiple Commanders:</b> Even on a highly organized, effective team, having multiple Commanders has been nothing more than a frustration. There is zero visual communication between Commanders, so you have no idea what the other Commander is doing unless he’s actively using voice chat. While in a perfect world that wouldn’t be a problem, for the average public game, it is a nightmare. I have never been so overwhelmed with alerts that I needed a helping hand as the Commander. Even in situations where I was very busy, that rush of micro management is part of the joy that comes with the Commander experience. But truly, the largest draw back of having multiple Commanders is the impact it has had on authority. A single Commander meant he called the shots and directed the team toward a single unified goal. Now, if a selfish marine wants flamethrowers and the current Commander has a different plan, that marine can hop into a secondary Command Station and research flamethrowers on his own, undermining authority. <b>On that same note, the potential for griefing is near limitless now.</b>
My two cents on fixing things: One Primary Commander. If we absolutely need additional Commanders, giving the Primary Commander the ability to 'promote' people to use the other Command Chairs would be fantastic. Give me some sort of alert on my screen that informs me of the actions my fellow Commanders are taking. Even a simple "Commander #2 built an Armory!" would be a huge help.
<b>-Power Nodes:</b> Originally, a Commander's main priorities were clear cut: Direct your marines to cap nodes and to control territory. With the new additional Command Chairs and Power Nodes, these main priorities have become greatly divided. Powering on a room is important, but so is capping Resource Towers. Advancing your tech tree is important, but useless if you don't have power or the resources. Forcing the Commander to juggle these three currently feels very tedious, especially considering Power is only a weakness for Marines. The problem reflects in the foot soldiers on the Alien team as well. As a skulk, attacking the Power Node remains supreme, but it feels very unsatisfying to chomp one down only to see it rebuilt seconds later with virtually no impact. Considering I could have attacked the Command Chair/Armory/Observatory to regress their tech, or hit their Resource Tower and cost them precious resources, the Power Node seems to be a needless addition. Unfortunately, it's too effective to ignore. Often I'll see skulks rush a base and immediately begin attack different targets, with everyone hitting what they consider more vital. Dividing up priorities isn't a bad idea, it's great to see some new flavor added to the old formula, but the Power Nodes just aren't functioning in a fun and enjoyable way as they are now.
My two cents on fixing things: Combine Power Nodes and Resource Towers. This will narrow down the main priorities between 'Resources/Power' and 'Tech.'
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><u>The Marine Team:</u><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
The symbiotic relationship between Marine and Commander has suffered, primarily as a result of the MAC and Power Nodes. If I recall correctly, the MAC was originally the designated builder with Marines being the brawn. That didn’t work, so a change was made to let Marines build. Well, now Marines can out build MACs in almost every situation, and are not helpless and fragile. Power Nodes remain their only purpose, with them being ‘escorted’ around by Marines, yet most of the time they out race every sprinting marine that is supposed to cover them. And yet this works out fine. Most of the time a MAC does not need an escort. They are plentiful, and because they spawn at any Tech Point, they can often reach any destination very quickly with little opposition. They feel very disposable and somewhat insignificant. I've never really felt concerned over losing a MAC. It's a mechanic of NS2 that feels like it is adding a lot of complexity with very little payoff. Constantly redefining the MAC's role may be a sign it has no role to serve. <i>(Personally, I think if Resource Towers and Power Nodes were combined, the MAC would be excellent as a dedicated repair bot.)</i>
I’d also like to touch on one of my biggest personal NS2 gripes: The lockable doors are incredibly frustrating with their current implementation. This is primarily because the small lights on the doors fail to readily notify marines if it is currently locked or open. Take a look at Dead Space, when a door is locked, the entire door is framed in red, with a large red icon floating in the center. That functioned beautifully. The marines in NS2 have a hologram display built into their helmets, why can't it be used on the doors as well? To be honest, lockable doors are a perfect example of a great feature implemented in a far too basic form in the Beta which has resulted in them being counter productive to the whole testing process. Another being the Flamethrower. I understand these features are not finished products, but why implement them when even the Alien countermeasures are not present? Throwing half the recipe into the mix is having a negative impact on the game. Beta or not, frustrating and confusing those playing your game will not end well. Removing a few of these features until they are fleshed out a bit more would go a long way to removing some of the frustration many beta testers are experiencing.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><u>The Alien Team:</u><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
The exact same problem arises with the Gorge. I am continually reminded that the Gorge is incomplete, and that he'll play a larger role once DI is implemented, but where is DI? If it really is going to have such a large impact on the Gorge and the pace of the game, why did we ever reach BETA phase without it? As it stands now, the Gorge class has been greatly devalued by the introduction of the Alien Commander. I'm alright with giving the Gorge a new role, but spamming hydras and heal spray is not a role. His placing of hydra structures blurs his job with the Alien Commander and his heal spray is very underwhelming to use. His role is currently divided between support and offense, but he's fulfilling neither. Regardless of what DI is going to change, we're currently stuck in a very nasty limbo where only half the intended feature is implemented.
But the problems don't end with the incomplete Gorge or absent DI. Visual communication has also completely broken down on the Alien team. Nothing about the hive communicates to new players that it is a command station. Nothing shows what structures are few and which are many. It’s impossible to easily tell what upgrades have been purchased, both as a Commander and as a foot soldier. Many of these problems are absolutely killing the experience of the Alien team, and most of these reflect equally on the other team. As a marine, you can't tell if a skulk now has level 3 melee attacks or level 3 armor. Nothing communicates any of that. A new player, unaware of those upgrades, will be completely confused when skulks go from being a small threat to a complete terror. It's just another example of NS1's flaws returning.
[EDIT:] Aonomus has made an excellent post covering many topics I forgot to address here: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=112383&view=findpost&p=1824957" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1824957</a>
The lack of intuitive design and visual feedback in NS2 is really crippling it something terrible. It's causing a large number of players to walk away with poor reactions, who then spread their negative opinions somewhat heavy handed to potential buyers. I understand NS2 is in Beta, but many of these issues are what I would have expected resolved during Alpha, named many of NS1's original flaws. Overall, I'm worried about NS2 because I have faith it can still be a great game. Many of my fellow NS1 fans are already considering it a loss! I strongly disagree, so I've made this post with the intent of doing what I can to help.
<i>[EDIT:] "Off his rocker" is a silly expression, don't take it to heart, people. Sheesh.</i>
Comments
Since this seems to be a well written and thought out thread I will add my own input regarding "fixing" the problems NS1 had.
<b>NS1 Flaws</b>
<b>Problem 1</b>
Marines could lock down a single hive with only one resource tower, and still win rather easily. I have played many games where aliens controlled 95% of a map, and have still lost because marines could sit in a single location and turtle with upgrades until they had enough to push out and win. One may say this is not a problem, but I would argue an RTS should be about map / resource control and it looks like a flaw in that respect.
<b>Solution to problem 1</b>
Make the number of resource towers part of the tech tree. For example, a minimum of 2 resource towers would power things like an advanced armory and/or phase gate technology. Without having 2 resource towers, an armor could only be a regular non advanced armory.
<b>Problem 2</b>
Phase gates could be overpowered, in cases of having multiple phase gates in a hive making it nearly impossible for aliens to take down both before being slaughtered. Yes it was possible but in a general pub game, taking down an occupied hive that had 2 phase gates was nearly impossible.
<b>Solution to problem 2</b>
Simply limit the phase gate to a radius of can and cannot build. So if one phase gate exists, another cannot be placed within a certain radius of it.
<b>Problem 3</b>
Spawn camping is a big problem in NS1. A single really good marine can easily keep a hive under lock down when new aliens attempt to spawn in. I am unaware of any measures that are in place in NS2 to address this problem but there are some simple solutions.
<b>Solution to problem 3</b>
Temporary invincibility at initial spawn (usually a 2-3 second window). Another is letting players egg where they want, even if it is on top of the hive itself. When you are being spawn camped, you know where the enemy is but have no control over where you spawn. There is no obvious solution to this problem but take a look at what some other games have done and make a decision.
NS1 was a great game, NS2 feels like it is trying to do too many things and failing to do any of them well. I realize NS2 is not complete, but your game should always be fun and easy to understand and enjoy. If there are fundamental things wrong and you just keep adding more features the game is not going to get any better.
why make comments like this? shooting through walls will obviously be fixed regardless of how many people whine about it, and the balance issues can not be judged whatsoever seeing as the game isn't complete.
edit - also signing your posts is ######tastic
Actually I think one of the points being made is that NS2 is even more of a hard core game than NS1. It is far more confusing with all of the new design changes to tech trees and resource management etc. There were flaws in NS1 as it was far from a perfect game. I think there are very valid points being made not only based on what I have read but have personally experienced. The core experiences that I personally liked in NS1 are missing in NS2. The marine / commander relationship, the gorge, those pieces feel very must lost in translation. If the goal was to make the game more accessible to new players, NS2 is really failing on that goal. I think that is the purpose of this thread unless I am mistaken.
If the goal was to make the game more accessible to new players, NS2 is really failing on that goal. I think that is the purpose of this thread unless I am mistaken.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Precisely. I understand NS2 is a new game, and I'm happy it is. I'm not happy that it's repeating NS1's mistakes, rather than addressing them.
<b>Carbon (team resource, only accessible by the commander(s))</b> - Used for placing structures, research, and upgrades
<b>Plasma (personal resource, commander(s))</b> - Used for dropping medkits and ammo (no current use on the alien side)
<b>Plasma (personal resource, players)</b> - Used for purchasing weapons at the armory
<b>Energy (structure resource, only accessible by commander(s))</b> - Used to purchase MACs/Drifters and observatory abilities.
Carbon and plasma are generated by extractors/harvestors. Energy is generated at the structure (i.e. select the command station/hive and at the bottom of the structure icon is a XXX/200)
I had the same confusion about the resource system. AFAIK this is how it works and its both way too complicated and unclear. Personally, I'd like it simplified to the following:
<b>Carbon: </b>Team resource, can only be used by the commander and only on commander-mode items (structures, research, upgrades, MACs/Drifters, structure abilities), Generated by extractors/harvestors
<b>Plasma: </b>Individual resource, can only be used by the individual player and only on player items (weapons from the armory, personal upgrades, gorge structures). Generated by point accumulation (e.g. from player kills, structure kills, and structures built).
<b>Carbon (team resource, only accessible by the commander(s))</b> - Used for placing structures, research, and upgrades
<b>Plasma (personal resource, commander(s))</b> - Used for dropping medkits and ammo (no current use on the alien side)
<b>Plasma (personal resource, players)</b> - Used for purchasing weapons at the armory
<b>Energy (structure resource, only accessible by commander(s))</b> - Used to purchase MACs/Drifters and observatory abilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Plasma is used to drop hydras, isn't it?
But yes, plasma is the "personal" res. It can also be used in special ways if you hop in the comm chair. Carbon is shared.
@ the OP: There IS a +10 or +15 whenever a marine kills something. That's res coming in. I'm not sure if it's plasma or carbon or w/e, though. I agree it'd be great to see "+ (plasma sign) 15" so that a new player can instantly see it's tied to resources and not just points.
Well thought out post, though. Kudos for disagreeing on that many points but keeping it sensible.
You get money from extactors, comm uses it to buy buildings, marines use it to buy guns.
Exactly what more is there? Who cares about the specifics. Kill aliens, build extractors if you want more money. That's really all you need to know.
No no. That's points, i.e. <b>score</b>. More valuable kills give you a greater score. There's no RFK (res for kill) AFAIK*.
*Confirmed, no res for kill, just AddKill and AddScore.
I don't like that the plasma gain rate is so high, since there's just all that excess that no one except a gorge knows what to do with. There's no decision making, or a sense of loss when you lose a life-form or weapon.
I would personally prefer plasma on kills (earning your equipment), and a very low rate of plasma from towers (just so that if people are *that* poor at killing, they can still buy some equipment later). I like the idea that carbon = team resource, and plasma = personal resource.
Carbon should only be gained by extractors/harvesters. I would also prefer extractors/harvesters to have carbon-upgrades (to be more useful to the team as a whole), rather than plasma-upgrades as it is now (once again, because of the plasma excess).
I would just balance it so that the benefit of upgrading a tower is less than the benefit of a new tower, e.g. you could give tower upgrades 50% of the cost of a fresh tower, but have only a 33% gain in carbon income for that tower; in order to encourage pushing. If you had 3 upgrades total, it'd be 2.5x the cost of a fresh tower, but only twice the gain of a fresh tower.
@SentrySteve: Same here (the skulk thing), but it's more a case of "I don't like where this is <b>going</b>, let's rethink this for a moment."
*Confirmed, no res for kill, just AddKill and AddScore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, guess I had assumed they kept that in from NS1.
It's no fun getting my argument shot down by the game code itself XD
I actually like the idea of personal plasma gain on kill, though (as I discussed above).
But keep in mind that <b>NS2 doesn't yet have good enough performance to judge game balance</b>
That said, I think you make many good points.
First off, I always thought the resource model in NS2 isn't very good. Right off the bat, the names Carbon, Plasma, and Energy aren't very distinct. They are sort of abstract things that to the layperson might be confusing.
In nearly all RTS games it is immediately clear how to get a certain resource. In Starcraft there are just two resources, minerals and vespene gas. The blue mineral patches and the green gas geysers make it immediately clear how the resource is obtained, and how they are different.
In age of empires, there's wood, gold, etc. Its obvious that you get the wood from trees, etc.
But what is plasma? What is energy? The resources in NS2 are given arbitrary names and they have a little arbitrary icon with an arbitrary color.
When you have a resource node pumping up and down, what resource is it gathering? Energy? Plasma? Carbon? It is not immediately clear.
The NS2 resource model should be simplified and more approachable. You shouldn't have to think at all, it should be immediately obvious. Right now it is simply poorly designed and not user friendly.
Theres absolutely no reason to have 3 resources in a RTS/FPS game. It needs to be simplified.
Good enough performance? It doesn't even have all the playable characters yet!
True, but we can't really tell the balance between things that have already have been implemented.
But keep in mind that <b>NS2 doesn't yet have good enough performance to judge game balance</b>
That said, I think you make many good points.
First off, I always thought the resource model in NS2 isn't very good. Right off the bat, the names Carbon, Plasma, and Energy aren't very distinct. They are sort of abstract things that to the layperson might be confusing.
In nearly all RTS games it is immediately clear how to get a certain resource. In Starcraft there are just two resources, minerals and vespene gas. The blue mineral patches and the green gas geysers make it immediately clear how the resource is obtained, and how they are different.
In age of empires, there's wood, gold, etc. Its obvious that you get the wood from trees, etc.
But what is plasma? What is energy? The resources in NS2 are given arbitrary names and they have a little arbitrary icon with an arbitrary color.
When you have a resource node pumping up and down, what resource is it gathering? Energy? Plasma? Carbon? It is not immediately clear.
The NS2 resource model should be simplified and more approachable. You shouldn't have to think at all, it should be immediately obvious. Right now it is simply poorly designed and not user friendly.
Theres absolutely no reason to have 3 resources in a RTS/FPS game. It needs to be simplified.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree with your last line, but agree with everything else. All you need to do is change the names, and make the distinction and their roles more obvious.
For example,
"Power" or "Influence" (currently Energy, comes from the tech node, spent by commander at tech node: units, abilities),
"Wealth" or "Credits" (currently Plasma, comes from resource nodes and kills, spent by, and for, players: player equipment, or commander support [medpacks, ammo]),
and "Resources" or "Minerals" (currently Carbon, comes from resource nodes, spent by the commander: structures and researches).
Now the names themselves might have to be tweaked for NS2's context, but the basic ideas behind them get pretty much straight to the point.
You just have to ensure you work along these guidelines, so you don't have sentries costing personal resources like you did before.
The first resource can possibly be done away with and replaced with the other two as appropriate. e.g. Units = Resources, Abilities = Wealth.
Personally, I'm a fan of the change to bring in drifters/macs but I think that to allow gorges a more involved role, drifters should react with gorges more like macs do with marines. Allow alien commanders to place a building and have a drifter begin heading there to build, but also display a template of the building once it goes down to all (nearby?) gorges, and have gorges build at a much faster rate than a drifter can.
Have to agree with hari's solution for resources, most likely just renaming them would solve the problem.
Also, I don't know which version of starcraft some of you have but I definitely see 3 resources, fairly sure even sc1 had 3 resource types - Units have always needed something to use their abilities.. Energy is almost always a resource used for individual units, sometimes it will be called power for a building, other times have another name, almost every RTS has some form of additional resource for units.
Commanders in NS don't have units they can control directly, they have buildings instead, which generate energy as any other unit would - I don't get how that one is causing confusion.
"Team Resources" and "Personal Resources".
Sounds kinda boring, but who can argue that people won't get the picture?
I'm not sure about the gorge though, I think for many people the main reason they dislike the new gorge is for nostalgia's sake, or they just want the gorge to be what he was in NS1. I feel that the gorge's roles were superseded by the alien commander, and that this is fine. But the bigger issue is that the Gorge isn't a very interesting or involved class to play, compared to the other alien life-forms. Basically he doesn't have much to do except heal-spray and place hydras, and this is definitely an issue.
But keep in mind that <b>NS2 doesn't yet have good enough performance to judge game balance</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My post has very little to do with the 'balance' between teams. I think before we can discuss turret costs or skulk bite damage, we've got to address the much larger, core mechanics of NS2 that are simply not working in an intuitive manner. Once again, NS1 had a <b>huge learning curve</b>, and NS2's new design was meant to address that, but instead it has an <b>even larger learning curve.</b> I'm not trying to tell UWE how to balance their game or how to redesign it to be like NS1, I just want these issues addressed so that NS2 can reach it's full potential.
<!--quoteo(post=1823928:date=Jan 13 2011, 04:41 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 13 2011, 04:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1823928"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But the bigger issue is that the Gorge isn't a very interesting or involved class to play, compared to the other alien life-forms. Basically he doesn't have much to do except heal-spray and place hydras, and this is definitely an issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Precisely. I loved the old Gorge, but I'm alright with seeing him receive a new role. He just hasn't been given one yet. His job as the hydra spammer blurs his responsibilities with the Alien commander, and his healing abilities are somewhat underwhelming as they are now. The Gorge has tons of potential to be a really awesome support class, and that's why I'm trying to get him some attention in my post. I think once UWE chooses the right role for him, he'll once again be a unique class that offers a fun and exciting experience.
I'm going to add some of these comments to my OP.
So, are you saying that it'll get even slower after adding onos/JP? Truth is that these are totally orthogonal.
"Team Resources" and "Personal Resources".
Sounds kinda boring, but who can argue that people won't get the picture?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think they should be more basic, as has been previously suggested:
Change 'Carbon' to 'Resources'
Change 'Plasma' to 'Credits'
Keep 'Energy' as it is.
It might just be me, but 'credits' makes much more sense as a personal currency and fits with the theme.
Change 'Carbon' to 'Resources'
Change 'Plasma' to 'Credits'
Keep 'Energy' as it is.
It might just be me, but 'credits' makes much more sense as a personal currency and fits with the theme.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
I'd put in Commander Resources - to really make it obvious :) or Nano Grid resources - and rename the Extractors to Nanite Pumps - so you know what they do
You have a number, when you buy stuff the number goes down, it goes up over time, you can't buy stuff if it's too low.
That's all you need to know.
The game will no doubt go through a lot of changes by the time its out but as it is i don't quite see how game play will evolve. I do like multiple resources in some ways, power adds to the game and keeps it interesting, personal resources should be limited and the commander should be able to research and drop weapons and equipment when needed, we should have a main commander and the rest sub commanders with limited control.