I've been playing around now with cheats on and finding places where they can be used, and if you know where to place them so they cover each-other and remember that they have a 90 degree field of vision, you can get some pretty unbreakable defences. If you can find the money to place two of them and place those two correctly, they can cover a corridor without any real risk of them going down. Then you just keep on doing that so that every turret you place gets another one so they can do the work by themselves.
I'm actually agreeing with the new cost now, the sentries are so powerful once you place them correctly that I think it's just as well.
I've just been taking some screenshots, but will post up a guide. If you have sentries setup in the right way it can take down a tier 1 fade hacking away before it can take the covering sentry down.
They are very powerful, you just have to make sure you have at least two and that they face each other.
It is like a reverse sentry rule. For instance, if you want one firing left and one firing right, you place the one firing left to the right of the one facing right.
Will post some screenies of Rockdown placements in a mo..
Playing skulk i rarely worry about sentries, would i think before running in front of one? obviously, but you can often leap/run around them and get behind/above them and take them down fairly quickly if there are no marines around to back it up and interrupt it. Even with the sentry with its back to wall its often no hassle to leap behind and get them.
As a fade or even a lerk theyre a joke, lerks can just snipe away at them.
<!--quoteo(post=1825228:date=Jan 18 2011, 04:21 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Jan 18 2011, 04:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825228"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Chris , have you also noted that the Khaara Comm has the same issue, Whips and Hydras even with Crag support simply wont hold off Marines without Aliens supporting ?
These structures are not meant to defend your base while your team go off, they are support structures to make it easier to defend / attack. An aspect of team play is always to balance your offence and defence , all out Offence means you are risking being counter attacked , and obviously all in Defence means your not harrasing / hindering the enemy.
If you are having an issue with keeping team mates around to assist you defending, you are having issues with teamplay ... not a balance issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To a lesser degree. You need to build crags in order to heal your troops, and whips are relatively good at blocking marine movement, you also need at least one whip to research melee upgrade. A developed hive should have at least two crags and a couple of whips in it as a matter of course, and aliens spawn into hives anyway very cheaply. Aliens are more mobile, more expendable, have more resiliant spawns, and are just generally better at responding to threats than the marines are. Their structures are also much tougher especially with crags healing them constantly.
Aliens do have relatively crappy structures but they have better ones than marines, and they need them far less than the marines do. Marines have crappy defences and can't respond to threats properly either.
For the cost of 20 carbon the aliens get a very tough all in one healing, spawning, and map control spreading hive which can be placed and built automatically by a fast and expendable drifter. The aliens also don't have much to spend carbon on, they don't research anything. To get the same results marines would need to build two macs, research speed upgrade, build a comm chair, build two IPs, build an armory, and they'd still be more vulnerable than the aliens. Marines simply can't afford to spend money on sentries for how crappy they are.
At the start of the game a single whip can delay a single marine quite well, it will at least use up much of his rifle ammo and intelligent placement can make it impossible for the marine to really kill it without getting smacked around.
Turrets on the other hand, you need at least two. And even then a skulk can probably get into position to hide from one behind the other and bite it to death, or even just ignore the turrets and get into the base proper and eat/camp the infantry portal.
<!--quoteo(post=1825280:date=Jan 18 2011, 11:36 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Jan 18 2011, 11:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825280"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A big problem with crags at the moment is any experienced player will drop crags in map geometry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or any inexperienced player trying to drop them on the floor and not realising that they are actually being placed on the ceiling.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
edited January 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1825228:date=Jan 18 2011, 08:21 AM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Jan 18 2011, 08:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825228"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Chris , have you also noted that the Khaara Comm has the same issue, Whips and Hydras even with Crag support simply wont hold off Marines without Aliens supporting ?
These structures are not meant to defend your base while your team go off, they are support structures to make it easier to defend / attack. An aspect of team play is always to balance your offence and defence , all out Offence means you are risking being counter attacked , and obviously all in Defence means your not harrasing / hindering the enemy.
If you are having an issue with keeping team mates around to assist you defending, you are having issues with teamplay ... not a balance issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You kidding? Crag+whip combos are highly effective defenses. You're right that they are not impenetrable (especially when marines get flamethrowers), but I've fended off many assault rifle-wielding marines with just whips and crags.
I think the more relevant indicator of how good crag+whips are too sentries is how much they slow down an attack. A single crag+whip can effectively slow, or even stop, one to two attacking marines. Those extra seconds are sometimes all I need to get a player to come back and defend a hive. Sentries are nowhere near the same. I regularly watch skulks, lerks, and fades actually bypass sentries to either attack other marines/structures or too retreat and heal.
Comments
I'm actually agreeing with the new cost now, the sentries are so powerful once you place them correctly that I think it's just as well.
They are very powerful, you just have to make sure you have at least two and that they face each other.
It is like a reverse sentry rule. For instance, if you want one firing left and one firing right, you place the one firing left to the right of the one facing right.
Will post some screenies of Rockdown placements in a mo..
As a fade or even a lerk theyre a joke, lerks can just snipe away at them.
These structures are not meant to defend your base while your team go off, they are support structures to make it easier to defend / attack.
An aspect of team play is always to balance your offence and defence , all out Offence means you are risking being counter attacked , and obviously all in Defence means your not harrasing / hindering the enemy.
If you are having an issue with keeping team mates around to assist you defending, you are having issues with teamplay ... not a balance issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To a lesser degree. You need to build crags in order to heal your troops, and whips are relatively good at blocking marine movement, you also need at least one whip to research melee upgrade. A developed hive should have at least two crags and a couple of whips in it as a matter of course, and aliens spawn into hives anyway very cheaply. Aliens are more mobile, more expendable, have more resiliant spawns, and are just generally better at responding to threats than the marines are. Their structures are also much tougher especially with crags healing them constantly.
Aliens do have relatively crappy structures but they have better ones than marines, and they need them far less than the marines do. Marines have crappy defences and can't respond to threats properly either.
For the cost of 20 carbon the aliens get a very tough all in one healing, spawning, and map control spreading hive which can be placed and built automatically by a fast and expendable drifter. The aliens also don't have much to spend carbon on, they don't research anything. To get the same results marines would need to build two macs, research speed upgrade, build a comm chair, build two IPs, build an armory, and they'd still be more vulnerable than the aliens. Marines simply can't afford to spend money on sentries for how crappy they are.
At the start of the game a single whip can delay a single marine quite well, it will at least use up much of his rifle ammo and intelligent placement can make it impossible for the marine to really kill it without getting smacked around.
Turrets on the other hand, you need at least two. And even then a skulk can probably get into position to hide from one behind the other and bite it to death, or even just ignore the turrets and get into the base proper and eat/camp the infantry portal.
Or any inexperienced player trying to drop them on the floor and not realising that they are actually being placed on the ceiling.
These structures are not meant to defend your base while your team go off, they are support structures to make it easier to defend / attack.
An aspect of team play is always to balance your offence and defence , all out Offence means you are risking being counter attacked , and obviously all in Defence means your not harrasing / hindering the enemy.
If you are having an issue with keeping team mates around to assist you defending, you are having issues with teamplay ... not a balance issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You kidding? Crag+whip combos are highly effective defenses. You're right that they are not impenetrable (especially when marines get flamethrowers), but I've fended off many assault rifle-wielding marines with just whips and crags.
I think the more relevant indicator of how good crag+whips are too sentries is how much they slow down an attack. A single crag+whip can effectively slow, or even stop, one to two attacking marines. Those extra seconds are sometimes all I need to get a player to come back and defend a hive. Sentries are nowhere near the same. I regularly watch skulks, lerks, and fades actually bypass sentries to either attack other marines/structures or too retreat and heal.
They should be electrified or something (as an upgrade?) to deter the loan range skulk taking one out.
Same goes for alien structures.
But true, they could be a little bit cheaper. ~10-15res