Overdepending On Turrets/towers

The_FinchThe_Finch Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8498Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Reducing turret farms</div> People are slow to change, and will generally go with what works until something better comes along. Unfortunatly, spamming turrets has become a winning strategy, and it doesn't seem to show any signs of going away.

NS maps are far larger then your standard TFC or CS map, and are far more cramped. The few open areas are inevitably valuble resource points, hive locations or a good, old fashioned chokepoint. It's often some combination of those. But standard server populations are 12-24 people, meaning it's 6-12 per team. A 12 person team for maps this size is ineffective at covering all the important areas and still remaining a viable fighting force.

So turrets take up all the space except for the turret factory and possibly an armory for in field resupply. You need a lot, because turrets are dumb. Strategies don't become "kill the players." They become "Take out that damn factory at all costs!" I find this a little boring. Finding a way to counter a room full of turrets isn't the action I'm really looking for.

I'm basically wondering if anyone else feels the same way, and if there's anything that's in the works to reduce both the need and desire for turret farms or tower clusters.

Comments

  • SuperMunchkinSuperMunchkin Join Date: 2002-09-28 Member: 1364Members
    Some one said marines have an easier time setting up turrets? Bwaahahahahaha. A gorge can setup turrets/chambers ANYWHERE on the map. Anyone can become a gorge to do so.

    Marines on the other hand, need the Turretfactory first. It must still be operable for turrets to be affective.

    Aside from the gorge, any alien class can make a turret farm go down single handedly if they don't just simply rush it.

    The stock marine with a LMG isn't likely to be able to take out 4 OCs backed up with a few DCs. Shottie needs to be close to be effective. HMG's are expensive, but plausible, and GL's (if affordable) win the day. And the last game I played the siege cannons don't seem to do a whole helluva lotta good against them for some reason. I've heard others talk about this bug, and now I've seen it first hand from Commander's point of view. It sucks.

    Balanced... maybe. But I still say marine turrets are a lot less affective than Alien turrets as things stand now.
  • MaxPlankMaxPlank Join Date: 2002-11-04 Member: 6898Members
    less turrets, more killing! I definitely feel that killing a marine/alien is much more enjoyable than killing turrets especially with aliens. Killing turrets or turret factories take forever and is just a pain. Limit them! Then we can have higher kill counts instead of people just bunny hopping cannons all over the place. Dodging bullets from a HMG is much more fun than dodging bullets from that damn turret.
  • nicussnicuss Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8749Members
    <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo-->
    <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo-->
    <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • OzobOzob Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4802Members
    I like playing the aliens. I can easily take out a turret factory/farm with a fade. It may take a few minutes, but I have no problem doing it. If there is a marine or two there, then it is much harder, if you have 2-3 fades it goes very quickly. If you are organized it isn't hard to do. Also the marines have the same problem with the offensive/defensive towers the aliens can make. When you are the marines the turrets are your only resonable defense. These make the game more of a strategy game as opposed to a run around and chase everyone combat game. If I wanted to do that I can always play TFC, etc.
  • natenate Join Date: 2002-11-12 Member: 8321Members
    well said ozob, dont forget this IS a strategy/fps game.
  • kanserikanseri Join Date: 2002-11-14 Member: 8629Members
    yea, there could be some limit to how many and factories can be built..
  • ImmacolataImmacolata Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2140Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    Currently marine turret farms are easier to remove than alien turret farms. Marine farms requires you to remove their factories, which is OFTEN not a big problem. Only rarely do the marines manage to place their factory so cunningly that it isn't taken out before the turrets. Aliens just have to put down 6 chambers, 3 offensive and 3 defensive, then they're REALLY difficult to deal with. Make it 4 of each and they seem to be invincible. These farms can be put up by a gorge very quickly - and they CANNOT be taken out so fast as with the marine farms.

    So what really needs to be done is to make the alien chamber clusters less resilient or the marine turret farms more so. Judging from your opinion it would be nerfing chambers that we need.
  • TwexTwex Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4999Members
    i don't see a need to change the game. the playstyles must change

    sentries are now very ineffective at covering a room, because no matter what, the turret factory is the weak point. even a skulk can take them out easily. marines must learn not depend on sentries, but on their greater mobility which teleport pads and mobile spawn points lend them. therefore i can't agree with you that marines have a need or desire to turret farm, as smart marines know that turret farms are a quick path to defeat.

    alien "turrets" on the other hand, no matter how many, will always fall to siege cannons and grenades.

    as it currently stands, the team with the better offence wins, because both teams' static defences are weak. this is a good thing. currently marines turret farm and lose a lot because they are still living in their v1.00 world, where turtling DID win the game.
  • Paranoia2MBParanoia2MB Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7832Members
    You know

    I'm starting to think...is it really fair that once the Marines T.factory is out that they lose turret power? Look at the aliens towers, they can get healed w/o needing a person around and they dont shut down once something gets taken out. I think bringing it back the old way where the t.factory wasn't such a huge target

    maybe have it so that if the t.factory goes out..that the turrets become less accurate..or become slower to lock on in a sense
  • smokedbaconsmokedbacon Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6006Members
    Have you guys ever played a real rts? Defensive structures are a very integral part in the game, just as they are here. But they definately wont win the game for you. You need constant fighter backup to keep them fresh, plus heavy offense. A marine *should* come to every checkpoint in alien territory and see a cluster of turrets and d.chambers. Thats the idea. Kharaa are a plague and can spring up pretty much anywhere. Needless to say though, they definately aren't invinsible. Slap down 1 siege to help kill off reinforcement aliens, then hit them with any gun, and they will fall....easily. Marine turrets rely on the factory, and they are just as easy to take out, but of course need teamwork, just like the marines do.

    Take the example of a BGH map in starcraft. You could always spend all your resource nodes on nothing but defense as a protoss. Photon cannons out the **obscenity**. Surround your whole base with 5-7 layers of the suckers. Then slap them everywhere else in between for the mass air rush on your center. You are pretty well protected.....for awhile. But eventually the pressure of enemy offensives will be so much that they will finally break down your walls. Your huge defense is now dead.

    If you were to instead build a quarter of as much defense, and spend all the extra resources on a strong offense, you now can easily defend your base with a combination of the two, plus have an army to attack with.

    If you stuck with me on this, then congrats. In short for those of you who didnt, there needs to be no change, except maybe some of the siege turret bugs. I have seen 10 siege turrets in a cluster fail to take down 4 offense and 4 d.chambers in the next room. But If I pop around the corner with a light machine gun and direct my fire on one turret, I can take it down in a few seconds. This seems wierd.
  • PulsePulse To create, to create and escape. Join Date: 2002-08-29 Member: 1248Members, Constellation
    edited November 2002
    some of you think offence chambers are stronger than sentrys for some reason, I do not consider something that misses me more often than not even when I'm standing still dangerous, and neither should you, offence chambers need an accuracy tweak because I really think that you should NOT be able to knife one without taking any significant damage.
    [edit] Do not listen to the bacon! He's talking actual strategy! *hiss* havent seen the siege bug yet though [/edit]
  • JA1numJA1num Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7261Members
    mmmm yummy <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> for my hungry little <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> tummy
  • ImmacolataImmacolata Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2140Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    edited November 2002
    Well if the gorge setting them up did his job right, knifing them up isn't risk entirely free at least. I've tried, but I might just suck at it though <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ... I can out-<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> a turret outpost though by careful hiding or frantic running.
  • PulsePulse To create, to create and escape. Join Date: 2002-08-29 Member: 1248Members, Constellation
    try circle strafing around the o's while franticly knifing them, that usually does the trick, or if your feeling epecially evil you could jump on top of them where they cant damage you (this really needs to be fixed)
  • lazygamerlazygamer Join Date: 2002-01-28 Member: 126Members
    Ok but imagine this. The alien turrets take more damage and can be built quicker. They also heal themselves, and you can build defense chambers to.(or do the turrets heal you?)

    Alien turrets also parasite you!

    So the trade-off for this nice bonus is that the turrets are quite in-accurate. As for the marine siege cannons, it's like their own tiny.

    Marine turrets can also be built more mobilely, you don't need a gorge. Commander just sets up an order, and you go build it.
  • JA1numJA1num Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7261Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--SiLeNcEr-7+Nov 15 2002, 07:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SiLeNcEr-7 @ Nov 15 2002, 07:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->try circle strafing around the o's while franticly knifing them, that usually does the trick, or if your feeling epecially evil you could jump on top of them where they cant damage you (this really needs to be fixed)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    or just be very evasive ( left,right,left) and try not to jump,coz turrets very accurate when u're JUMPING
  • Naughty_BremboNaughty_Brembo Join Date: 2002-05-30 Member: 701Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Twex+Nov 15 2002, 11:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twex @ Nov 15 2002, 11:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->marines must learn not depend on sentries, but on their greater mobility which teleport pads and mobile spawn points lend them.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Greater mobility?

    *snickers*

    Hmm maybe this guy hasn´t tried out pressing the "use" key while facing an alien movement chamber...can´t blame him though, few aliens seem to know about the alien teleports.

    And compared to a skulk with celerity the marines seem like the "secret obese geriatric attack force"...

    No flame intended.

    /NB
  • JA1numJA1num Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7261Members
    lol yea alot of people still deosnt know how to use the movement chambesr! <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> maybe....
  • TwexTwex Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4999Members
    heh, perhaps YOU have not understood true mobility

    aliens completely depend on the hive locations: they spawn there, they get there abilities from there and they can teleport only there

    marines on the other hand can teleport and spawn whereever they want on the whole map.

    the fact that you see spawngates nowhere except in the original base and 10 sentries instead of a teleport pad prove that the marines have not understood their inherent advantage of superior mobility yet.
Sign In or Register to comment.