<!--QuoteBegin--Saturn+Nov 19 2002, 12:29 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Saturn @ Nov 19 2002, 12:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I fail to see how lerking early does damage. If a non-Gorge player has gotten 33 resources, it would seem the gorge has gotten roughly 99... 3/1 ratio for Gorge to non-Gorge...
While it's argueable that the 33 RPs could be better spent elsewhere (morph to Gorge, RT, and later back to skulk), a Lerk has quite a few decent early capabilities - the least of which is being able to spike a turret or factory from out of range...
I don't think you are wrong, Revenge. I just don't understand how that works.
-Saturn <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In general though there aren't that many skilled early Lerk players to justify the resource cost. If there is, great, be Lerk then.
i think the best thing that people, expecially newbs can do, is change from gorge to skulk when their more experienced teamates tell them to. Example: I played on one server as alien. We had 4 skulks and 4 gorges, so we were getting resources slow as **obscenity**. But anyway, all 4 gorges sucked, and refused to change back to skulk. Somehow finally we managed to get a second hive up, and most of us skulks changed to fade. However, while we asked for d and movement chambers, it took all of 20 minutes, no joke, 20 MINUTES, for one single chamber from all 4 gorges. I just think they need to change when their teamates want them to. ::skulk::
I agree that skulks changing to gorge temporarily can be a good boost for resources, but there's a few cautions to doing it. First of all, why didn't the primary gorge get this resource? It may be in an area that's not well defended by skulk traffic, or it may be directly in the warpath of the marines. Think for a second before you change, a dead resource tower isn't a crippling loss, but it's still not good for the team.
I'd actually recommend staying as a gorge long enough to finish building the tower. Chances are, you're building in a place that wandering marines will find soon. Best to get that sucker up and collecting as fast as possible, so that it can pay off it 35-resource debt. Having an extra gorge will temporarily hurt income, but that player will also hit the maximum 33 sooner as a result, and make up for hogging resources earlier. An undefended tower will certainly be killed, the only trick is to keep it alive long enough to come out ahead.
Also, unless there are a lot of respawners queued, just kill yourself when it's time to go back to skulk. Save 4 resources, and jump back into the fight in a better location.
The one thing missing from this is... what happens when an alien is dead? You don't collect resources when you're dead; are your resources distributed amongst the rest of the team? Not an issue other than the fact that post-skulk/marine rush, there can be a respawn pool a minute deep and I'm clueless as to whether they're not counted, their resources disappear into the ether or they're spread out amongst the survivors.
<!--QuoteBegin--that swanky kid+Jan 15 2003, 01:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (that swanky kid @ Jan 15 2003, 01:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The one thing missing from this is... what happens when an alien is dead? You don't collect resources when you're dead; are your resources distributed amongst the rest of the team? Not an issue other than the fact that post-skulk/marine rush, there can be a respawn pool a minute deep and I'm clueless as to whether they're not counted, their resources disappear into the ether or they're spread out amongst the survivors.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> When you die your excess goes to to the pool which is distributed, same with gesting to a smaller res class. Thus if theirs 2 gorges (which you shouldnt have in the first place <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ) and your tryin to get that third hive, you can bug the other to go skul and toss his res's over 33 to the pool for you. If the main gorge dies, if your team is a well oiled machine you should have a back up skul gest and go take his spot to maximise your gorge output (note: 2 gorges does NOT do this rather wastes a class.... it doesnt take so much time to click a structure down for more then one gorge needed... rather go skul and kill stuff). Usually if theres a disturbance enough to kill a gorge, its best to just have the whole team stay attack classes, clear whatever caused the gorges death and have the old gorge go back to gorge when hes ready. Meanwhile the pool will get 2 more res's to distribute to these atacking classes to be a strong force.
Guys, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE dont do the skulk -> gorge -> res -> skulk trick because it is just as bad as evolving to lerk. It resets you back down to zero res, which means that while you are collecting res again you are wasting some other gorge's valuable time as they sit there waiting to get enough res for whatever it is they are doing.
Sure, you get another res tower, but the current gorge could have also built a tower in that time, and atleast if you left him to it, he's still be collecting a lot faster.
If you want to see this system in action, and working extremely well, come play in New Zealand servers. We seem to have developed an efficient gorge routine that seems to happen even on pubs. We often do build def chambers early, but only if we decide that we need their upgrades before we get fades. Teamwork is usually not a problem over here.
Not when you die, when you're dead. You can sit in respawn for up to 8 ticks in seriously dire circumstances and your RPs are where you left them when you come back. As a gorge, I've never noticed RPs coming faster with lots of dead aliens and they're not collecting so... where do they go? Are they simply not used in computing resources per tick?
ResNode in a hive location the double bladed edge... I have mixed feelings about this. As a gorg I try to actually stay away from additional hive location because the marines I play with (if the comm knows what he is doing) will usually try to rush an open hive and drop a phasegate there. If I am in the open hive when they rush in I am dead. Resources wasted. If I get the tower up then then rush in they (this time if the marines are smart) will wait till they get the phasegate up then call in one or two more marines then take out the resnode then kill the skulks as they come in to defend it. This wastes the 22 res on the res node and makes the team limp along till the respawn cycle is done. In large pub games (10 per side) can take quite a while.
When I drop res nodes I like to do it out in the open map. Usually a com won't dop a phase next to it because it is pointless long term. If one or two marines try to knive it a skulk that knows whats up can take them out.
When I am playing with a clan member on the other team that knows what they are doing I have to assume they are com and will send the marines to an open hive. So in this situation I avoid open hives until I have a few skulks with me, even after it is verified that it is open, and enough res to start the hive right off.
It really depends on what the com is doing. The gorg must be dynamic. As soon as a routine is setup the attack plan is broken. If you know the comm is going to go one way that is going to butt heads with your plan, you must have a fall back that will not set you too far back.
I usually try to get the second resnode down before I figure out what they are doing. If they are trying to rush the main hive with a phasegate just outside the first hive I will drop a few D towers under the hive and tell the skulks to get back to main to kill the marines and the phase gate.
As soon as people develope "always" tactics they will be countered.
is it me, or (in 1.04) does the rez come really really slowly (slower than 1.03) i read the changes, and nothing is mentioned.... . 1 gorge, 8 players on aliens.
I've noticed a definite increase in res points gained when teammates are dead, so those res are definitely being distributed. I also agree that going lerk early on isn't a good plan; lerks need some kind of upgrade to be useful. After you have two hives, lerks can be devastating... I once took out two fully guarded hive locations as a lerk by sniping the portals and then the turret fac.
I have to disagree with the one gorge mentality. In most clan games even in 6v6's we have 1 gorge initially but a 2nd goes gorge after 1st RT is down. Later in the game we are quite flexible with rotation. Once we have 3 RT's res is usually very quick. Further into the game i usually have so much res that I am leaving a bloody trail.
Most of you seem to be focusing solely on res distribution, whereas often in clan games the bottom line is 1 gorge can't do it all or be everywhere, and travelling can be dangerous - even with redemption a gorge having to keep walking back from hive is wasted time where marines are gaining ground.
Sometimes in NS you only have a short opportunity to do something, i.e. optional res capping - you could wait for the gorge to get over there or if you have the resource, evolve and drop a tower, as you are building just drop a spare OT behind you to build itself and hopefully cover you if you get attacked, or if you are on the other side of a map just build the RT.
Also you manage to break a marine hive, gorge is elsewhere then gorge yourself if res is there and secure it (not build) but at least stop marines getting back in.
I just feel there is a big opportunity cost being ignored. While yes max res aliens leave their spare to the gorge, there is a massive tactical advantage in having multiple gorges to get stuff up simultaneously rather than leaving a 33 res or whatever inactive - especially on the big maps. Your excess may go to the gorge, but 5 aliens all with 33 res is a lot of res not being used early on.
I have read all the post and I have to agree with the last one the most. Although I am not real sure I think it is faster for two gorges to get 2 rt than it is for 1 gorge two get 2 rt. I think now my perfered start to optimize res is for 1 gorge to build a first res while everyone else rushes main base. After the first rush another person should then go gorge while everyone else defends. The first gorge after getting the first res should build dc and protect first hive. The second should gorge should get 2 res, the two closes to a hive that the aliens are going to take. Then he should save for hive. (Each gorge should use redemtion as soon as it is avaible.
I play on 69.1.79.62:27035 !!!Team Fun's Allergic Reaction v1.04!!! (Really good sever) and they usually only have one gorge. It's a 18 man sever that is usually always pretty full. At what point of the game can there be a second gorge without hurting the first gorge.? Becuase I want to learn how to gorge but I don't want to hurt the team by doing it.
<!--QuoteBegin--Revenge+Nov 24 2002, 12:24 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Revenge @ Nov 24 2002, 12:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Every marine who is in a game increases the amount of resources the marines collect <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Im not sure but im pretty sure thats a common misconception. I'm pretty the amount of resources you get depends on the number of Enemies not friendlies. IE more marines = more resources for aliens. I found this out in a LAN game with my self and bots. When marines no matter how many marines there were i got the same amount of res but as i added aliens my res intake increases proportionally to that of the number of enemies.
Yeah you are right about that one, I'm pretty certain that was a typo (nov was a long time ago lol).
Anyways the resource system is going to get redone for 1.1 apparently, so I'll either be updating or replacing this thread as soon as the next version comes along
<!--QuoteBegin--Inexorable+Nov 23 2002, 11:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Inexorable @ Nov 23 2002, 11:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Donation through F4, or any other method, will be removed. I'm not sure how exactly he's going to fix this, but it may involve simply deleting the RP that were possesed by the player that F4'd/disconnected. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> how about the resources going to every alien on the team EXCEPT the gorge?
Ah yes but what happens when all but one of the players constantly F4s in and out? That last player waits until everyone is done F4ing, and THEN goes gorge...
Either way, the F4 exploit has been fixed I think... Or atleast made less effective. I can't remember anybody having done it lately either, so perhaps it is indeed fixed...
Well I think I'm somewhat wrong on that one. I think it mighted be based on a ratio of enemies to friendlies. But its still surely not based on how many friendlies there are.
I like to either when im gorge or when im not... only build RT's.. usually i have 2-3 up by the time my first skulks top out on res... i then have them go gorge temporarily, build a d... then go back skulk.... this saves me from having to build.. and keeps my res flowing better, while it seems maxed out skulks would get me more res, id rather be saving for a hive.. it spends the res more "better" it seems, since all the starting res is used to make d's rather than just sit there.....
It works for me anyways since cara comes online right as rines get lvl 1 weaps unless an unconventional strat is used
I've updated this guide to fit 2.0's simplified resource system.
Unfortunately this now means that almost all of the posts after it contradict the resource guide. Should I have reposted the update as a new topic instead?
Yes, create a new thread. THere is no way this thread can go on co-existing with the new model of resources. Plus, it gives a chance for any new questions to be asked without being side by side with old style res system questions.
<!--QuoteBegin--Lt. Hendrickson+Apr 18 2003, 05:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lt. Hendrickson @ Apr 18 2003, 05:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Revenge+Nov 24 2002, 12:24 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Revenge @ Nov 24 2002, 12:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Every marine who is in a game increases the amount of resources the marines collect <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Im not sure but im pretty sure thats a common misconception. I'm pretty the amount of resources you get depends on the number of Enemies not friendlies. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This is a server variable (boolean) again. 'Balance res for teams' I think it's called. Checking it has the effect you describe, otherwise the #players on the opposing team does not effect your res intake.
Overflowing and scaling or both out. If you collect 10 res a minute with 6 people on the server, you will STILL collect only 10 res a minute with 32 people on the server.
When someone f4 or disconnect from server, their resources arn't lost. Once they're back on the alien team, the resources will stay as it was when you left. Neat huh?
Anyways I think you should hold off on making a new thread with all these changes going on. It'll just cause a lot of aggrivation <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> but I definately think you should put these on a new thread.
NS 3.0 hasn't been released yet, the current version is still 2.01. When a NS 3.0 final is released I can fix it up again to match the changes (such as res overflow being fully back in now etc etc) <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Don't worry, I'm still taking care of my little baby here <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
While it's argueable that the 33 RPs could be better spent elsewhere (morph to Gorge, RT, and later back to skulk), a Lerk has quite a few decent early capabilities - the least of which is being able to spike a turret or factory from out of range...
I don't think you are wrong, Revenge. I just don't understand how that works.
-Saturn <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In general though there aren't that many skilled early Lerk players to justify the resource cost.
If there is, great, be Lerk then.
Example: I played on one server as alien. We had 4 skulks and 4 gorges, so we were getting resources slow as **obscenity**. But anyway, all 4 gorges sucked, and refused to change back to skulk. Somehow finally we managed to get a second hive up, and most of us skulks changed to fade. However, while we asked for d and movement chambers, it took all of 20 minutes, no joke, 20 MINUTES, for one single chamber from all 4 gorges. I just think they need to change when their teamates want them to.
::skulk::
I'd actually recommend staying as a gorge long enough to finish building the tower. Chances are, you're building in a place that wandering marines will find soon. Best to get that sucker up and collecting as fast as possible, so that it can pay off it 35-resource debt. Having an extra gorge will temporarily hurt income, but that player will also hit the maximum 33 sooner as a result, and make up for hogging resources earlier. An undefended tower will certainly be killed, the only trick is to keep it alive long enough to come out ahead.
Also, unless there are a lot of respawners queued, just kill yourself when it's time to go back to skulk. Save 4 resources, and jump back into the fight in a better location.
When you die your excess goes to to the pool which is distributed, same with gesting to a smaller res class. Thus if theirs 2 gorges (which you shouldnt have in the first place <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ) and your tryin to get that third hive, you can bug the other to go skul and toss his res's over 33 to the pool for you. If the main gorge dies, if your team is a well oiled machine you should have a back up skul gest and go take his spot to maximise your gorge output (note: 2 gorges does NOT do this rather wastes a class.... it doesnt take so much time to click a structure down for more then one gorge needed... rather go skul and kill stuff). Usually if theres a disturbance enough to kill a gorge, its best to just have the whole team stay attack classes, clear whatever caused the gorges death and have the old gorge go back to gorge when hes ready. Meanwhile the pool will get 2 more res's to distribute to these atacking classes to be a strong force.
-=K=-
Sure, you get another res tower, but the current gorge could have also built a tower in that time, and atleast if you left him to it, he's still be collecting a lot faster.
If you want to see this system in action, and working extremely well, come play in New Zealand servers. We seem to have developed an efficient gorge routine that seems to happen even on pubs. We often do build def chambers early, but only if we decide that we need their upgrades before we get fades. Teamwork is usually not a problem over here.
I have mixed feelings about this. As a gorg I try to actually stay away from additional hive location because the marines I play with (if the comm knows what he is doing) will usually try to rush an open hive and drop a phasegate there. If I am in the open hive when they rush in I am dead. Resources wasted. If I get the tower up then then rush in they (this time if the marines are smart) will wait till they get the phasegate up then call in one or two more marines then take out the resnode then kill the skulks as they come in to defend it. This wastes the 22 res on the res node and makes the team limp along till the respawn cycle is done. In large pub games (10 per side) can take quite a while.
When I drop res nodes I like to do it out in the open map. Usually a com won't dop a phase next to it because it is pointless long term. If one or two marines try to knive it a skulk that knows whats up can take them out.
When I am playing with a clan member on the other team that knows what they are doing I have to assume they are com and will send the marines to an open hive. So in this situation I avoid open hives until I have a few skulks with me, even after it is verified that it is open, and enough res to start the hive right off.
It really depends on what the com is doing. The gorg must be dynamic. As soon as a routine is setup the attack plan is broken. If you know the comm is going to go one way that is going to butt heads with your plan, you must have a fall back that will not set you too far back.
I usually try to get the second resnode down before I figure out what they are doing. If they are trying to rush the main hive with a phasegate just outside the first hive I will drop a few D towers under the hive and tell the skulks to get back to main to kill the marines and the phase gate.
As soon as people develope "always" tactics they will be countered.
i read the changes, and nothing is mentioned....
. 1 gorge, 8 players on aliens.
Most of you seem to be focusing solely on res distribution, whereas often in clan games the bottom line is 1 gorge can't do it all or be everywhere, and travelling can be dangerous - even with redemption a gorge having to keep walking back from hive is wasted time where marines are gaining ground.
Sometimes in NS you only have a short opportunity to do something, i.e. optional res capping - you could wait for the gorge to get over there or if you have the resource, evolve and drop a tower, as you are building just drop a spare OT behind you to build itself and hopefully cover you if you get attacked, or if you are on the other side of a map just build the RT.
Also you manage to break a marine hive, gorge is elsewhere then gorge yourself if res is there and secure it (not build) but at least stop marines getting back in.
I just feel there is a big opportunity cost being ignored. While yes max res aliens leave their spare to the gorge, there is a massive tactical advantage in having multiple gorges to get stuff up simultaneously rather than leaving a 33 res or whatever inactive - especially on the big maps. Your excess may go to the gorge, but 5 aliens all with 33 res is a lot of res not being used early on.
JAK.
Every marine who is in a game increases the amount of resources the marines collect <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im not sure but im pretty sure thats a common misconception. I'm pretty the amount of resources you get depends on the number of Enemies not friendlies. IE more marines = more resources for aliens. I found this out in a LAN game with my self and bots. When marines no matter how many marines there were i got the same amount of res but as i added aliens my res intake increases proportionally to that of the number of enemies.
Anyways the resource system is going to get redone for 1.1 apparently, so I'll either be updating or replacing this thread as soon as the next version comes along
how about the resources going to every alien on the team EXCEPT the gorge?
Either way, the F4 exploit has been fixed I think... Or atleast made less effective. I can't remember anybody having done it lately either, so perhaps it is indeed fixed...
I like to either when im gorge or when im not... only build RT's.. usually i have 2-3 up by the time my first skulks top out on res... i then have them go gorge temporarily, build a d... then go back skulk.... this saves me from having to build.. and keeps my res flowing better, while it seems maxed out skulks would get me more res, id rather be saving for a hive.. it spends the res more "better" it seems, since all the starting res is used to make d's rather than just sit there.....
It works for me anyways since cara comes online right as rines get lvl 1 weaps unless an unconventional strat is used
Unfortunately this now means that almost all of the posts after it contradict the resource guide. Should I have reposted the update as a new topic instead?
gj at the update.
Every marine who is in a game increases the amount of resources the marines collect <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im not sure but im pretty sure thats a common misconception. I'm pretty the amount of resources you get depends on the number of Enemies not friendlies. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a server variable (boolean) again. 'Balance res for teams' I think it's called. Checking it has the effect you describe, otherwise the #players on the opposing team does not effect your res intake.
HTH
Overflowing and scaling or both out. If you collect 10 res a minute with 6 people on the server, you will STILL collect only 10 res a minute with 32 people on the server.
Anyways I think you should hold off on making a new thread with all these changes going on. It'll just cause a lot of aggrivation <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> but I definately think you should put these on a new thread.
Don't worry, I'm still taking care of my little baby here <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->