<!--quoteo(post=1826050:date=Jan 21 2011, 06:04 PM:name=meb2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (meb2 @ Jan 21 2011, 06:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1826050"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->random hives are ###### retarded and if you think anything other than that youre a mother ###### idiot<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <img src="http://oits.in/1px.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
We find false meaning in the patterns of randomness for good reason: we are animals built to do just that. Suppose, for example, that you sit a subject in front of a light which flashes red twice as often as green, but otherwise without pattern. After the subject watches for a while, you offer the subject a reward for each future flash correctly predicted. What is the best strategy?
A nonhuman animal in this situation will always guess red, the more frequent color. A different strategy is to match your proportion of red and green guesses to the proportion you observed in the past, that is, two reds for every green. If the colors come in some pattern that you can figure out, this strategy will enable you to be right every time. But if the colors come without pattern you will do worse. Most humans try to guess the pattern, and in the process allow themselves to be outsmarted by a rat. (Those trying to time the market lately might wish they had let the rat take charge.) Looking for order in patterns has allowed us to understand the patterns of the universe, and hence to create modern physics and technology; but it also sometimes compels us to submit bids on eBay because we see the face of Jesus in a slice of toast.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited January 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1826379:date=Jan 22 2011, 10:51 PM:name=Terminotaur)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Terminotaur @ Jan 22 2011, 10:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1826379"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Looking for order in patterns has allowed us to understand the patterns of the universe, and hence to create modern physics and technology; but it also sometimes compels us to submit bids on eBay because we see the face of Jesus in a slice of toast.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
holy sh*t my head just caved in. but really: he's right. he went too far in detail. but he's right. increase the factors and odds and it decreases predictability. who really enjoys those Modern Warfare players who would chuck grenades the second the round started and you died before leaving the spawn area? its stupid. and ruins fun quickly. illusion of choice and differences create multiple playthroughs.
<!--quoteo(post=1826379:date=Jan 23 2011, 01:51 AM:name=Terminotaur)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Terminotaur @ Jan 23 2011, 01:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1826379"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We find false meaning in the patterns of randomness for good reason: we are animals built to do just that. Suppose, for example, that you sit a subject in front of a light which flashes red twice as often as green, but otherwise without pattern. After the subject watches for a while, you offer the subject a reward for each future flash correctly predicted. What is the best strategy?
A nonhuman animal in this situation will always guess red, the more frequent color. A different strategy is to match your proportion of red and green guesses to the proportion you observed in the past, that is, two reds for every green. If the colors come in some pattern that you can figure out, this strategy will enable you to be right every time. But if the colors come without pattern you will do worse. Most humans try to guess the pattern, and in the process allow themselves to be outsmarted by a rat. (Those trying to time the market lately might wish they had let the rat take charge.) Looking for order in patterns has allowed us to understand the patterns of the universe, and hence to create modern physics and technology; but it also sometimes compels us to submit bids on eBay because we see the face of Jesus in a slice of toast.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i didn't read this because it's pretty long and has some words in it, but i want random hives and apparently i'm a bunch of number signs.
<!--quoteo(post=1826081:date=Jan 22 2011, 02:17 AM:name=Tunis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tunis @ Jan 22 2011, 02:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1826081"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->tha mapper can decide if he want random start location or no :)
this is already in the editor ;)
(use random on eache team location and the game will choice 1 of them for the marine and alien ;) )
i think you can use 3 marine team location for the 3 possible start for marine and 3 alien team location for the 3 possible start for alien ;) if you want :) (in a map where they are 6 tech point ;) )<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IF you make both teams with random starting positions - since both need 3ccs to get tier 3. They will always be parallel => Random useless... IF you make it only for one team, random starting positions need the exact same travel time to any other technode, or double res that is not meant to be only for one side and the extact same travel time to marine start so you dont have benefits or huge drawbacks if you got unlucky....
In the end all it does is making the map layout into a more or less simple copy for every random start location map.... the only thing that can differ is the overall size of the map while in relation the ways need to be the same.
The way it is now you will have maps with very different possible layouts, if you make random start locations the maps wont have much different layouts... 2 to 3 technodes on each side(you need at least 2, otherwise random wouldnt make much sense) with 1dres or 1 technode in between.
Normal system => lots of different maps with different possible layouts Random system => 2-3 layouts to only feel a little difference how 1 map feels.
Lets remember ns1, marine start in the middle of one side? and Aliens with 3 positions (left middle right) on the other side... Now that you tell me - i see the potential...
not.
PS: BTW: And the 2 starting technode layouts(random system) will have 2 hives in the first 10s of the game... wow random! i cant imagine where a hive could be...
Randomly determining the starting hive doesn't add any strategy to the game. All it does is partially take the outcome of the match out of the players' hands. It might make the game seem more interesting to new players, but once the novelty wears off, the inevitable balance issues just make it annoying, not to mention detrimental to competitive play.
If the game already has this capability built in, and custom mappers want to use it, fine. But not in any of the official maps, please.
Uzguz : the official map will not use random start ;)
i read it somewhere ^^
but i think random start can be fun for some map who have been created for this way, and that add a surprise at each game because you don't know where the ennemi spawn at start ;) after all if the mappers created a normal map like tram random start will not be good, but if he work the layout for match to random start that can be really good ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1826050:date=Jan 22 2011, 01:04 AM:name=meb2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (meb2 @ Jan 22 2011, 01:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1826050"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->random hives are ###### retarded and if you think anything other than that youre a mother ###### idiot<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know random starting locations make it harder to balance. So what. I don't think we need perfect balance every single round. Just like in NS1. Sometimes you get the crappy hive. Let's see what we can make out of that.
<!--quoteo(post=1826422:date=Jan 23 2011, 02:07 PM:name=Uzguz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Uzguz @ Jan 23 2011, 02:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1826422"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Randomly determining the starting hive doesn't add any strategy to the game. All it does is partially take the outcome of the match out of the players' hands. It might make the game seem more interesting to new players, but once the novelty wears off, the inevitable balance issues just make it annoying, not to mention detrimental to competitive play.
If the game already has this capability built in, and custom mappers want to use it, fine. But not in any of the official maps, please.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It adds quite a bit of strategy at best. Instead of having that one single opening for each map, I usually had 2 or 3 for each map depending on hive. It was quite interesting to have opening spreads that could be transitioned into different kinds of pushes and map controls depending on what the aliens had and did. Also, at best the maps played out favouring a bit different kinds of gameplay depending on the hive, for example I still feel a bit uncomfortable playing against Waste on Tanith despite many people consider it to be the weakest hive by far.
The problems started when it was absolutely necessary to have 3 different starting hives in each and every map, especially with the certain inflexibilities in the NS1 gameplay structure. That's simply way too much for most map layouts. Meanwhile a lot of NS1 maps have 2 decent hives, which the mappers could take a lot further if they didn't have to worry about 3rd one.
The last thing I want in NS2 is forcibly added randomization just for the sake of creating artificial variation. Still, I don't see it completely impossible to have even competetive level maps with some random in them, as long as it's kept strictly under control and only used when it's purposeful.
I think the SC2 map Shakura's Plateau is a pretty decent example of such controlled randomization: They eliminated the close position spawns, but the there are still two pretty different spawn setups avaible in the map. As far as I've understood, it's considered to be one of the more liked GSL maps and keeps providing a lot of entertaining rounds in a game that is still constantly struggling with rather unsatisfying all in rushes.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Still, I don't see it completely impossible to have even competetive level maps with some random in them, as long as it's kept strictly under control and only used when it's purposeful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is true! But just good old random for the sake of random wont do it. The map needs to be designed with this in mind, It wouldnt work on any official map with the current system.
Random maps are unlikely since they are very difficult to balance. I would imagine the devs might toy with random Hives after release, but not for release because it is too risky, requiring a bigger incubation time for the layout. UWE doesn't want longer lead times for map blockout, they need it tied down as oon as possible so any bespoke art does not need changing further down the line because of a crucial layout change, and just generally so they don't have to spend more time on level design.
They would probably adopt a custom map if it worked and was popular. If everyone here who wanted a random Hives map grouped together to create a map to this design and test it thoroughly, producing something of a high standard, it would probably make it into the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1826430:date=Jan 23 2011, 10:54 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Jan 23 2011, 10:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1826430"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know random starting locations make it harder to balance. So what. I don't think we need perfect balance every single round. Just like in NS1. Sometimes you get the crappy hive. Let's see what we can make out of that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's exactly my point. Maps aren't going to be scientifically balanced, with or without random hive, then let's introduce more options to gameplay to have more variety in rounds.
Imagine de_dust from Counter Strike with random spawn: no more running like robots to well known camping spots, no more waiting at corner where someone is going to pass for sure... I mean, variety, really total map usage, complexity, etc...
Hey, it's easy, like I said just remember NS1, those unbalanced maps, those crappy start hives and runs to secure good ones, those epic games lasting for hours, THAT FUN! (well, not all due to the initial random hive, but some :))
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited January 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1826438:date=Jan 23 2011, 07:34 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Jan 23 2011, 07:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1826438"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then design it with that in mind.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
exactly. non of us here were suggesting that you simple just make rockdown etc random spawning. make the damn map from scratch with this technique in mind.. you'll see plenty plenty more of variations of gameplay after the game has been out for a few months. its just a suggestion though guys. i doubt UW would ever make it "forced"if anything it could be a community made map.
p.s. am i the only one that misses going on a 3 man team searching deep deep into a map by yourselves to "seek out the hive" ?
<!--quoteo(post=1825856:date=Jan 21 2011, 04:38 AM:name=shiv)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shiv @ Jan 21 2011, 04:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825856"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->didn't even need to ping them, really. you could actually hear the hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I thought that too, couldn't remember if it was actually in NS1 though or just most other RTS games.
Certainly I remember that finding out where the starting hive was located was not a big thing if you knew a bit about commanding, or even if you just waited, as it was usually easy to figure out within a few minutes of the start based on marine scouting.
The only real argument for randomisation is that it allows you to get supposedly '3 maps in one' or something.
But considering that in order to be balanced, a map with random starts would also need to be very much the same along each of the 3 possible paths, it really just means you're making an oversized map that is kinda boring.
Much better to devote the time and effort into make say a pair of maps which are very different from each other, but aren't randomised. That would be more fun for me to make as a mapper and more fun to play as a player.
<!--quoteo(post=1825984:date=Jan 21 2011, 03:22 PM:name=Antonio Gramscix420)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Antonio Gramscix420 @ Jan 21 2011, 03:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825984"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->random hives were literally the worst part of ns1. your opinion is so wrong that i honestly dont understand how you can live with yourself. youre worse than hitler.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
im thinking thats because some of the hives were horrible and some of the maps were not designed with competitive play in mind. bast, anyone? when random hives just turns into "god I hope we don't get hive X or else we're screwed" then somethings wrong and it's not the random hive feature's fault.
<!--quoteo(post=1826543:date=Jan 24 2011, 04:46 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Jan 24 2011, 04:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1826543"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->im thinking thats because some of the hives were horrible and some of the maps were not designed with competitive play in mind. bast, anyone? when random hives just turns into "god I hope we don't get hive X or else we're screwed" then somethings wrong and it's not the random hive feature's fault.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If so many hives have that problem that rather suggests that it is the feature's fault.
If you consistently fail to get a feature to work properly, it needs to be taken out or changed so that it does work properly. If you can't consistently get a variety of good hive locations in one map, you need to stop asking for a variety of hive locations in one map.
Once stat-tracking is in, it's just a matter of evaluating every option and seeing whether it favours one side or another too drastically. If you can achieve about a half-half win-rate for each combination of starting points, with a reasonable error of say 5~10%, then that's ideal. Ideally, the average win rates of all combinations should be even closer to half-half. If there's a combination with too drastic a gap, fix it, and re-test; or else disable it. This would of course have to be under the <b>assumptions</b> that each team has an equal chance of winning (at least in an 'ideal' map) - i.e. both teams are equal in skill and size, and both teams are perfectly balanced against one another. You could even make a simple mod and code in some automatic initial checks like, for each combination, time it takes each team to reach the first tech point expansion from their starting tech point and such, just so that before you actually begin testing the map with different starting points, you'll know right away whether it's going to work or not.
I think they should have tried for multiple hive starting locations, using stat tracker to balance it. You could easily make a mod for competitive play that always started at a particular hive, if it's not balanced enough with random.
Unfortunately, current maps are laid out with a "farthest hive", which is the starting hive, and the closer hives would create an imbalance. So these maps must have set starting locations. Also, if DI is not implemented, the solution of static art in the start hive wouldn't work as well.
rather than random, Id want a vote to choose starting hive location at map start (give a 5 second timer - "press 1 for west hive room, 2 for south hive room, or 3 for east hive room"). ties are done randomly.
<!--quoteo(post=1826654:date=Jan 24 2011, 02:44 PM:name=Rahabib)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rahabib @ Jan 24 2011, 02:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1826654"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->rather than random, Id want a vote to choose starting hive location at map start (give a 5 second timer - "press 1 for west hive room, 2 for south hive room, or 3 for east hive room"). ties are done randomly.
wont happen this late in development however.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah I was thinking about this today, would be interesting
You do know ns2 is still more fps than rts? (you cant really compare sc2 with ns2)
But whatever, Mappers could already do it if they want. (at least someone said that in a posts)
The only point i want to make is... as already said => maps need to be build for that. (and demanding that uwe needs to build or rebuild their maps is trolling(not that anyone said that) -> maybe they will make a map that uses this, maybe not. If you really want it - build your own map and show us how its done right. If you looked at the mapping guidelines the chance(my guess) uwe will make such a map is next to 0.
<!--quoteo(post=1826682:date=Jan 24 2011, 09:41 PM:name=cH40z-Lord)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cH40z-Lord @ Jan 24 2011, 09:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1826682"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In my opinion the best strategy game at the moment ( StarCraft II ) runs fine with random positions, even in 1on1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Random spawns are failing in SC2 too. Metalopolis heavily suffers from the close spawns, which almost forces the game to be played from 2 bases at max. There simply isn't any way to take any other expansion than your natural and even it involves big time risks in many cases (TvZ still seems like a terrible joke occassionally).
I mentioned SC2 map Shakuras Plateau in some earlier post, since it actually tries to implement the randomization in a meaningful way by removing the undesired close positions. I think similar approach is necessary if NS2 wants to have any chances of having succesful and well designed random positions. And even with a careful and thought out system I'm not sure if it'll work good enough.
From an FPS perspective... The start hive gets more polish visually and functionally. You don't start at the bad hive.....EVER. Because the starting positions are strong it takes a strong coordinated attack to do a hive/marine start rush.
From an RTS perspective... The amount of places you can build a hive has increased and building a hive is far easier than NS1. If you don't like the starting hive....build another one. This places more tactical decisions and freedom in the commander's hands from server tick 1.
The way I look at it... Even playing on rockdown a map that is NOT a full sized map....It is minutes before the other team is already going for that Tier2 spot. You usually want to find and stop that location...there is your adventure and surprise.
Comments
<img src="http://oits.in/1px.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
A nonhuman animal in this situation will always guess red, the more frequent color. A different strategy is to match your proportion of red and green guesses to the proportion you observed in the past, that is, two reds for every green. If the colors come in some pattern that you can figure out, this strategy will enable you to be right every time. But if the colors come without pattern you will do worse. Most humans try to guess the pattern, and in the process allow themselves to be outsmarted by a rat. (Those trying to time the market lately might wish they had let the rat take charge.) Looking for order in patterns has allowed us to understand the patterns of the universe, and hence to create modern physics and technology; but it also sometimes compels us to submit bids on eBay because we see the face of Jesus in a slice of toast.
holy sh*t my head just caved in.
but really: he's right. he went too far in detail. but he's right. increase the factors and odds and it decreases predictability. who really enjoys those Modern Warfare players who would chuck grenades the second the round started and you died before leaving the spawn area? its stupid. and ruins fun quickly. illusion of choice and differences create multiple playthroughs.
A nonhuman animal in this situation will always guess red, the more frequent color. A different strategy is to match your proportion of red and green guesses to the proportion you observed in the past, that is, two reds for every green. If the colors come in some pattern that you can figure out, this strategy will enable you to be right every time. But if the colors come without pattern you will do worse. Most humans try to guess the pattern, and in the process allow themselves to be outsmarted by a rat. (Those trying to time the market lately might wish they had let the rat take charge.) Looking for order in patterns has allowed us to understand the patterns of the universe, and hence to create modern physics and technology; but it also sometimes compels us to submit bids on eBay because we see the face of Jesus in a slice of toast.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i didn't read this because it's pretty long and has some words in it, but i want random hives and apparently i'm a bunch of number signs.
<!--quoteo(post=1826081:date=Jan 22 2011, 02:17 AM:name=Tunis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tunis @ Jan 22 2011, 02:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1826081"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->tha mapper can decide if he want random start location or no :)
this is already in the editor ;)
(use random on eache team location and the game will choice 1 of them for the marine and alien ;) )
i think you can use 3 marine team location for the 3 possible start for marine and 3 alien team location for the 3 possible start for alien ;) if you want :) (in a map where they are 6 tech point ;) )<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it would make maps even harder to balance but what about random marine starts too?
btw did anyone bring the flaming oil...
IF you make both teams with random starting positions - since both need 3ccs to get tier 3. They will always be parallel => Random useless...
IF you make it only for one team, random starting positions need the exact same travel time to any other technode, or double res that is not meant to be only for one side and the extact same travel time to marine start so you dont have benefits or huge drawbacks if you got unlucky....
In the end all it does is making the map layout into a more or less simple copy for every random start location map.... the only thing that can differ is the overall size of the map while in relation the ways need to be the same.
The way it is now you will have maps with very different possible layouts, if you make random start locations the maps wont have much different layouts... 2 to 3 technodes on each side(you need at least 2, otherwise random wouldnt make much sense) with 1dres or 1 technode in between.
Normal system => lots of different maps with different possible layouts
Random system => 2-3 layouts to only feel a little difference how 1 map feels.
Lets remember ns1, marine start in the middle of one side? and Aliens with 3 positions (left middle right) on the other side...
Now that you tell me - i see the potential...
not.
PS: BTW: And the 2 starting technode layouts(random system) will have 2 hives in the first 10s of the game... wow random! i cant imagine where a hive could be...
If the game already has this capability built in, and custom mappers want to use it, fine. But not in any of the official maps, please.
the official map will not use random start ;)
i read it somewhere ^^
but i think random start can be fun for some map who have been created for this way, and that add a surprise at each game because you don't know where the ennemi spawn at start ;)
after all if the mappers created a normal map like tram random start will not be good, but if he work the layout for match to random start that can be really good ;)
all depend on the map ;)
...Because?
If the game already has this capability built in, and custom mappers want to use it, fine. But not in any of the official maps, please.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It adds quite a bit of strategy at best. Instead of having that one single opening for each map, I usually had 2 or 3 for each map depending on hive. It was quite interesting to have opening spreads that could be transitioned into different kinds of pushes and map controls depending on what the aliens had and did. Also, at best the maps played out favouring a bit different kinds of gameplay depending on the hive, for example I still feel a bit uncomfortable playing against Waste on Tanith despite many people consider it to be the weakest hive by far.
The problems started when it was absolutely necessary to have 3 different starting hives in each and every map, especially with the certain inflexibilities in the NS1 gameplay structure. That's simply way too much for most map layouts. Meanwhile a lot of NS1 maps have 2 decent hives, which the mappers could take a lot further if they didn't have to worry about 3rd one.
The last thing I want in NS2 is forcibly added randomization just for the sake of creating artificial variation. Still, I don't see it completely impossible to have even competetive level maps with some random in them, as long as it's kept strictly under control and only used when it's purposeful.
I think the SC2 map Shakura's Plateau is a pretty decent example of such controlled randomization: They eliminated the close position spawns, but the there are still two pretty different spawn setups avaible in the map. As far as I've understood, it's considered to be one of the more liked GSL maps and keeps providing a lot of entertaining rounds in a game that is still constantly struggling with rather unsatisfying all in rushes.
That is true! But just good old random for the sake of random wont do it. The map needs to be designed with this in mind, It wouldnt work on any official map with the current system.
They would probably adopt a custom map if it worked and was popular. If everyone here who wanted a random Hives map grouped together to create a map to this design and test it thoroughly, producing something of a high standard, it would probably make it into the game.
That's exactly my point. Maps aren't going to be scientifically balanced, with or without random hive, then let's introduce more options to gameplay to have more variety in rounds.
Imagine de_dust from Counter Strike with random spawn: no more running like robots to well known camping spots, no more waiting at corner where someone is going to pass for sure... I mean, variety, really total map usage, complexity, etc...
Hey, it's easy, like I said just remember NS1, those unbalanced maps, those crappy start hives and runs to secure good ones, those epic games lasting for hours, THAT FUN! (well, not all due to the initial random hive, but some :))
exactly.
non of us here were suggesting that you simple just make rockdown etc random spawning.
make the damn map from scratch with this technique in mind.. you'll see plenty plenty more of variations of gameplay after the game has been out for a few months.
its just a suggestion though guys. i doubt UW would ever make it "forced"if anything it could be a community made map.
p.s. am i the only one that misses going on a 3 man team searching deep deep into a map by yourselves to "seek out the hive" ?
Yeah I thought that too, couldn't remember if it was actually in NS1 though or just most other RTS games.
Certainly I remember that finding out where the starting hive was located was not a big thing if you knew a bit about commanding, or even if you just waited, as it was usually easy to figure out within a few minutes of the start based on marine scouting.
The only real argument for randomisation is that it allows you to get supposedly '3 maps in one' or something.
But considering that in order to be balanced, a map with random starts would also need to be very much the same along each of the 3 possible paths, it really just means you're making an oversized map that is kinda boring.
Much better to devote the time and effort into make say a pair of maps which are very different from each other, but aren't randomised. That would be more fun for me to make as a mapper and more fun to play as a player.
im thinking thats because some of the hives were horrible and some of the maps were not designed with competitive play in mind. bast, anyone? when random hives just turns into "god I hope we don't get hive X or else we're screwed" then somethings wrong and it's not the random hive feature's fault.
If so many hives have that problem that rather suggests that it is the feature's fault.
If you consistently fail to get a feature to work properly, it needs to be taken out or changed so that it does work properly. If you can't consistently get a variety of good hive locations in one map, you need to stop asking for a variety of hive locations in one map.
because you touch yourself at night
If there's a combination with too drastic a gap, fix it, and re-test; or else disable it.
This would of course have to be under the <b>assumptions</b> that each team has an equal chance of winning (at least in an 'ideal' map) - i.e. both teams are equal in skill and size, and both teams are perfectly balanced against one another.
You could even make a simple mod and code in some automatic initial checks like, for each combination, time it takes each team to reach the first tech point expansion from their starting tech point and such, just so that before you actually begin testing the map with different starting points, you'll know right away whether it's going to work or not.
Unfortunately, current maps are laid out with a "farthest hive", which is the starting hive, and the closer hives would create an imbalance. So these maps must have set starting locations. Also, if DI is not implemented, the solution of static art in the start hive wouldn't work as well.
wont happen this late in development however.
wont happen this late in development however.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah I was thinking about this today, would be interesting
(There will be a best spot - always.)
It offers alot more dynamic gameplay from everyone: The marines and aliens.
If the mapper could decide if it should be random or fixed then it'd be fine for everyone too even if the map gets a special cvar or prefix.
Everyone would be happy :)
But whatever, Mappers could already do it if they want. (at least someone said that in a posts)
The only point i want to make is... as already said => maps need to be build for that. (and demanding that uwe needs to build or rebuild their maps is trolling(not that anyone said that) -> maybe they will make a map that uses this, maybe not. If you really want it - build your own map and show us how its done right. If you looked at the mapping guidelines the chance(my guess) uwe will make such a map is next to 0.
Random spawns are failing in SC2 too. Metalopolis heavily suffers from the close spawns, which almost forces the game to be played from 2 bases at max. There simply isn't any way to take any other expansion than your natural and even it involves big time risks in many cases (TvZ still seems like a terrible joke occassionally).
I mentioned SC2 map Shakuras Plateau in some earlier post, since it actually tries to implement the randomization in a meaningful way by removing the undesired close positions. I think similar approach is necessary if NS2 wants to have any chances of having succesful and well designed random positions. And even with a careful and thought out system I'm not sure if it'll work good enough.
From an FPS perspective...
The start hive gets more polish visually and functionally.
You don't start at the bad hive.....EVER.
Because the starting positions are strong it takes a strong coordinated attack to do a hive/marine start rush.
From an RTS perspective...
The amount of places you can build a hive has increased and building a hive is far easier than NS1.
If you don't like the starting hive....build another one.
This places more tactical decisions and freedom in the commander's hands from server tick 1.
The way I look at it...
Even playing on rockdown a map that is NOT a full sized map....It is minutes before the other team is already going for that Tier2 spot.
You usually want to find and stop that location...there is your adventure and surprise.
my two cents.