Or you could just buff RTs so that a single enemy can't run through the map killing them all.
A significant health buff combined with some sort of anti-melee defence would mean you need either a couple of people or some heavy equipment to kill them, and it would take time in either case.
Having RTs be easy to destroy and hard to defend serves no purpose other than to drain income and slow down the progression of the game.
Expecting people to break off from their chosen task to run across the map and kill one enemy harassing a refinery is not sensible.
In NS1 is drained all of a base Skulk's adrenaline to chew up a single RT. And that only got you to around 25% health. The rest of the way had to be done with extra slow chomps as your adrenaline recharged.
Could try adding back in Electrification and Mines, except wait....
RamblemoeJoin Date: 2010-12-21Member: 75812Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Retired Community Developer
edited January 2011
I like the idea of sturdier RTs. Giving them 400% of their current HP would be awesome. To balance it out I would cut the repair rate for them to 25%. In doing so, marines would have time to run over there and defend and since the repair rate is lowered it won't instantly be full health again. This giving the aliens time to launch a second attack and at the same time giving marines an incentive to to defend it while the MACs repair it. (arbitrary numbers, balance would be worked out ofc)
As for the aliens RTs I'd make em a bit more squishy than the marines, seeing as they don't appear to have much in terms of armor. Maybe 200% of current health but easier to heal with the gorge.
Edit: I just now read the first few posts in this thread regarding insta-lose when out of RTs and adding res tick to tech points. In response to having teams lose when out of RTs I think the option to cast a vote for conceding would be a better choice. As for the hive/cc resource tick, I'd have it at 25% of the RTs and only on the main hive/cc. Now the idea of high yield RTs might seem good but to me it seems too hard to balance. Seeing as aliens want small dark rooms and marines bright open rooms. It'd be impossible to have one high yield RT not favoring either team.
<!--quoteo(post=1828890:date=Feb 1 2011, 12:46 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Feb 1 2011, 12:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1828890"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In NS1 is drained all of a base Skulk's adrenaline to chew up a single RT. And that only got you to around 25% health. The rest of the way had to be done with extra slow chomps as your adrenaline recharged.
Could try adding back in Electrification and Mines, except wait....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would <i>suggest</i> you add back electrification, and let alien commanders use whips to counter it.
Aliens will always have an anti-structure unit available once whips can move and especially once they get bombard, so you don't have to worry about RTs being too hard to take down.
For marines, I would suggest making alien RTs much more resistant to bullet weapons, so that marines need late game tech to take them out quickly, and give them more health also so that they can't be knifed to death by a single marine, or possibly add in an alien equivalent of electirifcation, essentially just enough to prevent one marine from just sitting there and knifing everything to death.
If you're pushing to claim a res point, you should require at least two players to do it, especially when it's in a hive, as it stands unless someone spawns in the hive, marines can just run through blowing up res nodes at will, because even tram is too big to be held down properly by 8 players.
<!--quoteo(post=1828070:date=Jan 28 2011, 06:34 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 28 2011, 06:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1828070"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, <b>the way extractors/harvesters work in the game is</b> [...] if you built 3 towers with a space apart of 0.1 seconds, you'd get 1,2,3 resources quickly, then wait about another 11.7 seconds for the next 1,2,3 resources.
This is, imo, a problem, as it is completely unintuitive and clumsy. I imagine it's also more processor-intensive than it really should be, as each RT operates completely separately. The time instead should be unified; and you should have a <b>constant</b> resource tick rate, based on how many towers you have <b>operating</b> (you could still have that 4 second delay, just have towers in two states: operating and not operating).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not change resource flow such that all nodes produce resources synchronously, with a longer interval timer. This creates pacing and a heartbeat for the game. Also increase the resource flow interval while keeping the rate the same. Resource ticks will be easier to anticipate (strengthening the pacing), and with higher yield but less frequency each interval feels more rewarding. Inversely, players will feel more inclined to protect resource nodes when they might potentially be denied a larger chunk of them.
If capturing Res Nodes reduces the Team Res production timer (providing quicker updates) the increased pacing/heartbeat of a progressing game is more apparent. If a team owns 0 - 25% of the resource nodes on the map, resources are produced every 48 seconds. <= 25%, 48 sec <= 50%, 36 sec <= 75%, 24 sec <= 100%, 12 sec
So for Tram, with 8 Res Nodes, 1 ResTower at upgrade level 0 yields 4 Team Res every 48 seconds (equivalent to 1/12) and 2 PRes every 24 seconds (equivalent to 1/12) 1 RTs = 4 TRes/48 sec; 2 PRes/24 sec 2 RTs = 8 TRes/48 sec; 4 PRes/24 sec 3 RTs = 9 TRes/36 sec; 6 PRes/24 sec 4 RTs = 12 TRes/36 sec; 8 PRes/24 sec 5 RTs = 10 TRes/24 sec; 10 PRes/24 sec 6 RTs = 12 TRes/24 sec; 12 PRes/24 sec 7 RTs = 7 TRes/12 sec; 14 PRes/24 sec 8 RTs = 8 TRes/12 sec; 16 PRes/24 sec
Notice this makes no changes to the amount of resources produced, just provides quicker resource updates. Yes it is ultimately the same thing mathematically, but not strategically. Seeing the amount in a large sum allows the bigger implications much more apparent. For the attacking team, knowing that keeping alive long enough to kill a Res Tower before the next tick will deprive the defenders of a chunk of anticipated resources provides a sense of tension as a resource tower's health drops. This is the sort of effective use of rising and falling pacing that StarCraft 2's campaign uses to keep players engaged at all times (a vast improvement over lingering maps of the SC1 campaign). An easily accessible Res flow countdown timer (from the scoreboard or HUD) would help to reinforce the players understanding of the pacing.
Extending the Personal Res countdown may cause players to sit around by armories longer waiting for the next big res tick so they can buy something they can't afford yet, however the "player queue" this causes may also make players more likely to leave at the same times. *gasp* IN GROUPS!!!
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->I think <u><b>Gorges</b></u> should be able to <u>accompany a harvester</u> to make it <u>produce Tres/Pres quicker.</u><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
That way the Gorge has more of a role with in the team. I would like that.
Anyone who has played NS1 knows that RTs died quickly to shotguns. It takes roughly the same amount of time to kill an RT with a shotgun in NS2 as it did in NS1. The difference is that in the early minutes of NS1, you had maybe 1 shotgun on the field, but in NS2, EVERYONE has shotguns. So it isn't really a matter of the shotgun itself being overpowered, but the way resources are distributed.
The problem is that the commander can't choose between which resources he wants. In NS1, RTs paid for themselves in 1 minute because there was only 1 resource type. In NS2, it takes 3 minutes for them to pay for themselves, but you also get a lot of personal res that you may or may not need. You get very little team res to pay for your lost RT, and LOTS of shotguns.
One solution would be for RTs to have a natural bias for team resource flow, and allow personal resource flow to be upgraded using team resources. This is similar to how NS1 marines worked, except instead of the commander directly buying weapons, he upgrades personal resource flow. This way, if the other team kills your RT, it isn't so devastating because you will have more team resources to pay for a replacement.
RTs should collect something like 10 team resources/minute and 3 personal resources/minute by default. Then you can upgrade personal resource flow by 33% for 5 team res like you can currently.
the problem is that their is NO relationship between the commander, and gorge they both have independent roles. Alien, and marine commanding is too far the same than different, that is other problem. the gorge needs to be what he was before, and commanding should be limited to certain things, not everything. commanding must be different for aliens, not same as marines.
As for alien RTs, yes they are really are weak. They really must buff the health of alien RTs if they refuse to reduce shotgun damage.
Alternatively, the res flow reduction could be an added bonus to the current Extractor/Harvester production upgrades. As well as the 33% increased PRes per tick, reduce the tick length for TRes by about 33%. L0 Extractor: 5.00 TRes/60 sec; 2.00 PRes/24 sec L1 Extractor: 3.35 TRes/40 sec; 2.66 PRes/24 sec L2 Extractor: 2.24 TRes/27 sec; 3.54 PRes/24 sec L3 Extractor: 1.50 TRes/18 sec; 4.71 PRes/24 sec Again, these values (other than slight precision lost in division) are mathematically the same as the current values. This seems like a much simpler solution that provides the same effect.
<!--quoteo(post=1839652:date=Apr 3 2011, 05:22 AM:name=Jaweese)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jaweese @ Apr 3 2011, 05:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839652"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyone who has played NS1 knows that RTs died quickly to shotguns. It takes roughly the same amount of time to kill an RT with a shotgun in NS2 as it did in NS1. The difference is that in the early minutes of NS1, you had maybe 1 shotgun on the field, but in NS2, EVERYONE has shotguns. So it isn't really a matter of the shotgun itself being overpowered, but the way resources are distributed.
The problem is that the commander can't choose between which resources he wants. In NS1, RTs paid for themselves in 1 minute because there was only 1 resource type. In NS2, it takes 3 minutes for them to pay for themselves, but you also get a lot of personal res that you may or may not need. You get very little team res to pay for your lost RT, and LOTS of shotguns.
One solution would be for RTs to have a natural bias for team resource flow, and allow personal resource flow to be upgraded using team resources. This is similar to how NS1 marines worked, except instead of the commander directly buying weapons, he upgrades personal resource flow. This way, if the other team kills your RT, it isn't so devastating because you will have more team resources to pay for a replacement.
RTs should collect something like 10 team resources/minute and 3 personal resources/minute by default. Then you can upgrade personal resource flow by 33% for 5 team res like you can currently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> All truth, and I like the framework of your suggestion.
Hey <b>luns</b>, you should quote yourself, copy those quotes to a text file and save that text file on your desktop. Then whenever you ever want to make any post at all, just copy the quote to a Fast Reply and press Add Reply. It'll save you a huge amount of time and effort: it's all for your benefit. :) You can thank me later.
<!--quoteo(post=1839652:date=Apr 2 2011, 05:22 PM:name=Jaweese)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jaweese @ Apr 2 2011, 05:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839652"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyone who has played NS1 knows that RTs died quickly to shotguns. It takes roughly the same amount of time to kill an RT with a shotgun in NS2 as it did in NS1. The difference is that in the early minutes of NS1, you had maybe 1 shotgun on the field, but in NS2, EVERYONE has shotguns. So it isn't really a matter of the shotgun itself being overpowered, but the way resources are distributed.
The problem is that the commander can't choose between which resources he wants. In NS1, RTs paid for themselves in 1 minute because there was only 1 resource type. In NS2, it takes 3 minutes for them to pay for themselves, but you also get a lot of personal res that you may or may not need. You get very little team res to pay for your lost RT, and LOTS of shotguns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you want to put a strain on PRes so people are running around with shotguns less, have Marines only start off with the switch-ax and pistol, requiring the AR to be bought at the Armory. Doesn't necessarily have to be researched, it can be available immediately, but just the 10 PRes cost every death to get an AR back would reduce the average PRes per Marine. This may sound ridiculous or unbalanced at first, but you'd be surprised how effective the pistol is.
<!--quoteo(post=1839717:date=Apr 3 2011, 01:52 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Apr 3 2011, 01:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839717"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you want to put a strain on PRes so people are running around with shotguns less, have Marines only start off with the switch-ax and pistol, requiring the AR to be bought at the Armory. Doesn't necessarily have to be researched, it can be available immediately, but just the 10 PRes cost every death to get an AR back would reduce the average PRes per Marine. This may sound ridiculous or unbalanced at first, but you'd be surprised how effective the pistol is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That would be disastrous for any new/bad players. Now if they die, they have to pay 10 p.res or be <i>even less</i> effective? They have it bad enough already.
Plus, the relative cost of the shotgun would go down.
<!--quoteo(post=1839717:date=Apr 3 2011, 10:52 AM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Apr 3 2011, 10:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839717"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you want to put a strain on PRes so people are running around with shotguns less, have Marines only start off with the switch-ax and pistol, requiring the AR to be bought at the Armory. Doesn't necessarily have to be researched, it can be available immediately, but just the 10 PRes cost every death to get an AR back would reduce the average PRes per Marine. This may sound ridiculous or unbalanced at first, but you'd be surprised how effective the pistol is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That Idea is awesome!
Currently the Marines die more then the Aliens but it is no biggie.. just let 'em die and respawn. For Instance: if I am in a fight, I never retrieve. Even with just 10HP left. If I die and respawn in base I can save Time, because I don't have to walk back to Base to heal up.
If Marines only spawn with Pistol the Players have to take more care of their Lives and thus work more as a Team.
But I would wait with that until Marines are able to pick up dropped Weapons.
<!--quoteo(post=1839727:date=Apr 3 2011, 04:10 PM:name=Jaweese)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jaweese @ Apr 3 2011, 04:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839727"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That would be disastrous for any new/bad players. Now if they die, they have to pay 10 p.res or be <i>even less</i> effective? They have it bad enough already.
Plus, the relative cost of the shotgun would go down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 10 P.Res of the seeming endless stream they're supplied with? Yes. New/bad players will have to learn to become more effective with the pistol, but isn't that a positive thing to be encouraging?
Honestly, I don't think Marines have it any worse than Aliens from the start, and I don't think the AR empowers them so vastly that they're useless without it. The trouble is as the game progresses, Marines end up with a vast amount of excess resources, and once they've unlocked their Tech, there is little room for an Alien comeback.
<!--quoteo(post=1839738:date=Apr 3 2011, 05:42 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Apr 3 2011, 05:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839738"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->10 P.Res of the seeming endless stream they're supplied with? Yes. New/bad players will have to learn to become more effective with the pistol, but isn't that a positive thing to be encouraging?
Honestly, I don't think Marines have it any worse than Aliens from the start, and I don't think the AR empowers them so vastly that they're useless without it. The trouble is as the game progresses, Marines end up with a vast amount of excess resources, and once they've unlocked their Tech, there is little room for an Alien comeback.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Obviously if your idea was implemented with the current p.res flow, it wouldn't put a dent in personal res because players can already afford to buy expensive weapons every life. P.res flow would still have to be reduced for it to have any impact. So I'm really just debating the mechanic of it.
Understand that what you're suggesting is basically inverted RFK on steroids. Even if players are good with the pistol, it's still a severe disadvantage. But it really hurts new players the most because they're the ones who die the most. Maybe you've forgotten how difficult this game is to learn. Making the game needlessly unforgiving isn't going to encourage people to play better, it'll just make them rage quit.
The solution is so simple. All that's required is that personal res flow is reduced, and team res flow is increased. That's it.
<!--quoteo(post=1839742:date=Apr 3 2011, 07:58 PM:name=Jaweese)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jaweese @ Apr 3 2011, 07:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839742"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Obviously if your idea was implemented with the current p.res flow, it wouldn't put a dent in personal res because players can already afford to buy expensive weapons every life. P.res flow would still have to be reduced for it to have any impact. So I'm really just debating the mechanic of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Now I'm not sure you understand what I'm suggesting. How does spending 10 res on an Assault Rifle every life (until other tech is upgraded) not reduce your Personal Res by 10?
<!--quoteo(post=1839742:date=Apr 3 2011, 07:58 PM:name=Jaweese)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jaweese @ Apr 3 2011, 07:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839742"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Understand that what you're suggesting is basically inverted RFK on steroids. Even if players are good with the pistol, it's still a severe disadvantage. But it really hurts new players the most because they're the ones who die the most. Maybe you've forgotten how difficult this game is to learn. Making the game needlessly unforgiving isn't going to encourage people to play better, it'll just make them rage quit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's already inverted RFK for everything but the AR. What's the problem? You can survive without an AR in the beginning against Skulks; if you don't know this, you should try it out some time. If that truly is your opinion you're entitled to it but even ignoring the debatable "needlessly" part, I think saying this would make the game unforgiving is, well, ridiculously exaggerated. Dying as a vanilla marine--having spent no resources--does not "hurt" any players, new or vet. Hell, dying having lost 10 resources at this point hardly hurts either considering the flow rate. And why are they at such severe disadvantage? Because the pistol has a smaller clip and/or deals less damage? Honestly, with as much muzzle flash as the damned AR gives off, I'm usually more effective with a pistol than a rifle anyways.
<!--quoteo(post=1839744:date=Apr 3 2011, 07:31 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Apr 3 2011, 07:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839744"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How does spending 10 res on an Assault Rifle every life (until other tech is upgraded) not reduce your Personal Res by 10?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It does, BUT <!--quoteo(post=1839744:date=Apr 3 2011, 07:31 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Apr 3 2011, 07:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839744"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->dying having lost 10 resources at this point hardly hurts either considering the flow rate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For the sake of argument, let's say a marines have infinite personal resources (which is not far from reality). If shotguns are researched, there is no reason for marines to buy a rifle over a shotgun, because they will always have enough res to buy the shotgun. Since he isn't buying a rifle, he also isn't being affected by the cost of the rifle. Therefore, for the rifle cost to have an effect, personal resource flow MUST be reduced so that buying a shotgun every life isn't possible.
<!--quoteo(post=1839744:date=Apr 3 2011, 07:31 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Apr 3 2011, 07:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839744"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's already inverted RFK for everything but the AR. What's the problem? You can survive without an AR in the beginning against Skulks; if you don't know this, you should try it out some time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If I'm understanding you correctly, you're assuming that:
a marine without a rifle = a skulk (in terms of effectiveness)
and if you want the extra firepower of the rifle, you have to pay for it. That's really a balance issue that has nothing to do with the topic.
Comments
A significant health buff combined with some sort of anti-melee defence would mean you need either a couple of people or some heavy equipment to kill them, and it would take time in either case.
Having RTs be easy to destroy and hard to defend serves no purpose other than to drain income and slow down the progression of the game.
Expecting people to break off from their chosen task to run across the map and kill one enemy harassing a refinery is not sensible.
Could try adding back in Electrification and Mines, except wait....
To balance it out I would cut the repair rate for them to 25%. In doing so, marines would
have time to run over there and defend and since the repair rate is lowered it won't
instantly be full health again. This giving the aliens time to launch a second attack and
at the same time giving marines an incentive to to defend it while the MACs repair it.
(arbitrary numbers, balance would be worked out ofc)
As for the aliens RTs I'd make em a bit more squishy than the marines,
seeing as they don't appear to have much in terms of armor.
Maybe 200% of current health but easier to heal with the gorge.
Edit: I just now read the first few posts in this thread regarding insta-lose when out of RTs
and adding res tick to tech points. In response to having teams lose when out of RTs I think
the option to cast a vote for conceding would be a better choice. As for the hive/cc resource tick,
I'd have it at 25% of the RTs and only on the main hive/cc. Now the idea of high yield RTs might
seem good but to me it seems too hard to balance. Seeing as aliens want small dark rooms and
marines bright open rooms. It'd be impossible to have one high yield RT not favoring either team.
Could try adding back in Electrification and Mines, except wait....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would <i>suggest</i> you add back electrification, and let alien commanders use whips to counter it.
Aliens will always have an anti-structure unit available once whips can move and especially once they get bombard, so you don't have to worry about RTs being too hard to take down.
For marines, I would suggest making alien RTs much more resistant to bullet weapons, so that marines need late game tech to take them out quickly, and give them more health also so that they can't be knifed to death by a single marine, or possibly add in an alien equivalent of electirifcation, essentially just enough to prevent one marine from just sitting there and knifing everything to death.
If you're pushing to claim a res point, you should require at least two players to do it, especially when it's in a hive, as it stands unless someone spawns in the hive, marines can just run through blowing up res nodes at will, because even tram is too big to be held down properly by 8 players.
This is, imo, a problem, as it is completely unintuitive and clumsy. I imagine it's also more processor-intensive than it really should be, as each RT operates completely separately. The time instead should be unified; and you should have a <b>constant</b> resource tick rate, based on how many towers you have <b>operating</b> (you could still have that 4 second delay, just have towers in two states: operating and not operating).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not change resource flow such that all nodes produce resources synchronously, with a longer interval timer. This creates pacing and a heartbeat for the game. Also increase the resource flow interval while keeping the rate the same. Resource ticks will be easier to anticipate (strengthening the pacing), and with higher yield but less frequency each interval feels more rewarding. Inversely, players will feel more inclined to protect resource nodes when they might potentially be denied a larger chunk of them.
If capturing Res Nodes reduces the Team Res production timer (providing quicker updates) the increased pacing/heartbeat of a progressing game is more apparent.
If a team owns 0 - 25% of the resource nodes on the map, resources are produced every 48 seconds.
<= 25%, 48 sec
<= 50%, 36 sec
<= 75%, 24 sec
<= 100%, 12 sec
So for Tram, with 8 Res Nodes, 1 ResTower at upgrade level 0 yields 4 Team Res every 48 seconds (equivalent to 1/12) and 2 PRes every 24 seconds (equivalent to 1/12)
1 RTs = 4 TRes/48 sec; 2 PRes/24 sec
2 RTs = 8 TRes/48 sec; 4 PRes/24 sec
3 RTs = 9 TRes/36 sec; 6 PRes/24 sec
4 RTs = 12 TRes/36 sec; 8 PRes/24 sec
5 RTs = 10 TRes/24 sec; 10 PRes/24 sec
6 RTs = 12 TRes/24 sec; 12 PRes/24 sec
7 RTs = 7 TRes/12 sec; 14 PRes/24 sec
8 RTs = 8 TRes/12 sec; 16 PRes/24 sec
Notice this makes no changes to the amount of resources produced, just provides quicker resource updates. Yes it is ultimately the same thing mathematically, but not strategically. Seeing the amount in a large sum allows the bigger implications much more apparent. For the attacking team, knowing that keeping alive long enough to kill a Res Tower before the next tick will deprive the defenders of a chunk of anticipated resources provides a sense of tension as a resource tower's health drops. This is the sort of effective use of rising and falling pacing that StarCraft 2's campaign uses to keep players engaged at all times (a vast improvement over lingering maps of the SC1 campaign). An easily accessible Res flow countdown timer (from the scoreboard or HUD) would help to reinforce the players understanding of the pacing.
Extending the Personal Res countdown may cause players to sit around by armories longer waiting for the next big res tick so they can buy something they can't afford yet, however the "player queue" this causes may also make players more likely to leave at the same times. *gasp* IN GROUPS!!!
That way the Gorge has more of a role with in the team. I would like that.
The problem is that the commander can't choose between which resources he wants. In NS1, RTs paid for themselves in 1 minute because there was only 1 resource type. In NS2, it takes 3 minutes for them to pay for themselves, but you also get a lot of personal res that you may or may not need. You get very little team res to pay for your lost RT, and LOTS of shotguns.
One solution would be for RTs to have a natural bias for team resource flow, and allow personal resource flow to be upgraded using team resources. This is similar to how NS1 marines worked, except instead of the commander directly buying weapons, he upgrades personal resource flow. This way, if the other team kills your RT, it isn't so devastating because you will have more team resources to pay for a replacement.
RTs should collect something like 10 team resources/minute and 3 personal resources/minute by default. Then you can upgrade personal resource flow by 33% for 5 team res like you can currently.
As for alien RTs, yes they are really are weak. They really must buff the health of alien RTs if they refuse to reduce shotgun damage.
L0 Extractor: 5.00 TRes/60 sec; 2.00 PRes/24 sec
L1 Extractor: 3.35 TRes/40 sec; 2.66 PRes/24 sec
L2 Extractor: 2.24 TRes/27 sec; 3.54 PRes/24 sec
L3 Extractor: 1.50 TRes/18 sec; 4.71 PRes/24 sec
Again, these values (other than slight precision lost in division) are mathematically the same as the current values. This seems like a much simpler solution that provides the same effect.
The problem is that the commander can't choose between which resources he wants. In NS1, RTs paid for themselves in 1 minute because there was only 1 resource type. In NS2, it takes 3 minutes for them to pay for themselves, but you also get a lot of personal res that you may or may not need. You get very little team res to pay for your lost RT, and LOTS of shotguns.
One solution would be for RTs to have a natural bias for team resource flow, and allow personal resource flow to be upgraded using team resources. This is similar to how NS1 marines worked, except instead of the commander directly buying weapons, he upgrades personal resource flow. This way, if the other team kills your RT, it isn't so devastating because you will have more team resources to pay for a replacement.
RTs should collect something like 10 team resources/minute and 3 personal resources/minute by default. Then you can upgrade personal resource flow by 33% for 5 team res like you can currently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All truth, and I like the framework of your suggestion.
Hey <b>luns</b>, you should quote yourself, copy those quotes to a text file and save that text file on your desktop. Then whenever you ever want to make any post at all, just copy the quote to a Fast Reply and press Add Reply. It'll save you a huge amount of time and effort: it's all for your benefit. :) You can thank me later.
Time to start prototyping and testing!
The problem is that the commander can't choose between which resources he wants. In NS1, RTs paid for themselves in 1 minute because there was only 1 resource type. In NS2, it takes 3 minutes for them to pay for themselves, but you also get a lot of personal res that you may or may not need. You get very little team res to pay for your lost RT, and LOTS of shotguns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you want to put a strain on PRes so people are running around with shotguns less, have Marines only start off with the switch-ax and pistol, requiring the AR to be bought at the Armory. Doesn't necessarily have to be researched, it can be available immediately, but just the 10 PRes cost every death to get an AR back would reduce the average PRes per Marine. This may sound ridiculous or unbalanced at first, but you'd be surprised how effective the pistol is.
That would be disastrous for any new/bad players. Now if they die, they have to pay 10 p.res or be <i>even less</i> effective? They have it bad enough already.
Plus, the relative cost of the shotgun would go down.
That Idea is awesome!
Currently the Marines die more then the Aliens but it is no biggie.. just let 'em die and respawn.
For Instance: if I am in a fight, I never retrieve. Even with just 10HP left. If I die and respawn in base I can save Time, because I don't have to walk back to Base to heal up.
If Marines only spawn with Pistol the Players have to take more care of their Lives and thus work more as a Team.
But I would wait with that until Marines are able to pick up dropped Weapons.
Plus, the relative cost of the shotgun would go down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
10 P.Res of the seeming endless stream they're supplied with? Yes. New/bad players will have to learn to become more effective with the pistol, but isn't that a positive thing to be encouraging?
Honestly, I don't think Marines have it any worse than Aliens from the start, and I don't think the AR empowers them so vastly that they're useless without it. The trouble is as the game progresses, Marines end up with a vast amount of excess resources, and once they've unlocked their Tech, there is little room for an Alien comeback.
Honestly, I don't think Marines have it any worse than Aliens from the start, and I don't think the AR empowers them so vastly that they're useless without it. The trouble is as the game progresses, Marines end up with a vast amount of excess resources, and once they've unlocked their Tech, there is little room for an Alien comeback.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Obviously if your idea was implemented with the current p.res flow, it wouldn't put a dent in personal res because players can already afford to buy expensive weapons every life. P.res flow would still have to be reduced for it to have any impact. So I'm really just debating the mechanic of it.
Understand that what you're suggesting is basically inverted RFK on steroids. Even if players are good with the pistol, it's still a severe disadvantage. But it really hurts new players the most because they're the ones who die the most. Maybe you've forgotten how difficult this game is to learn. Making the game needlessly unforgiving isn't going to encourage people to play better, it'll just make them rage quit.
The solution is so simple.
All that's required is that personal res flow is reduced, and team res flow is increased. That's it.
Now I'm not sure you understand what I'm suggesting. How does spending 10 res on an Assault Rifle every life (until other tech is upgraded) not reduce your Personal Res by 10?
<!--quoteo(post=1839742:date=Apr 3 2011, 07:58 PM:name=Jaweese)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jaweese @ Apr 3 2011, 07:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839742"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Understand that what you're suggesting is basically inverted RFK on steroids. Even if players are good with the pistol, it's still a severe disadvantage. But it really hurts new players the most because they're the ones who die the most. Maybe you've forgotten how difficult this game is to learn. Making the game needlessly unforgiving isn't going to encourage people to play better, it'll just make them rage quit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's already inverted RFK for everything but the AR. What's the problem? You can survive without an AR in the beginning against Skulks; if you don't know this, you should try it out some time.
If that truly is your opinion you're entitled to it but even ignoring the debatable "needlessly" part, I think saying this would make the game unforgiving is, well, ridiculously exaggerated. Dying as a vanilla marine--having spent no resources--does not "hurt" any players, new or vet. Hell, dying having lost 10 resources at this point hardly hurts either considering the flow rate. And why are they at such severe disadvantage? Because the pistol has a smaller clip and/or deals less damage? Honestly, with as much muzzle flash as the damned AR gives off, I'm usually more effective with a pistol than a rifle anyways.
It does, BUT
<!--quoteo(post=1839744:date=Apr 3 2011, 07:31 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Apr 3 2011, 07:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839744"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->dying having lost 10 resources at this point hardly hurts either considering the flow rate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For the sake of argument, let's say a marines have infinite personal resources (which is not far from reality). If shotguns are researched, there is no reason for marines to buy a rifle over a shotgun, because they will always have enough res to buy the shotgun. Since he isn't buying a rifle, he also isn't being affected by the cost of the rifle. Therefore, for the rifle cost to have an effect, personal resource flow MUST be reduced so that buying a shotgun every life isn't possible.
<!--quoteo(post=1839744:date=Apr 3 2011, 07:31 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Apr 3 2011, 07:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839744"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's already inverted RFK for everything but the AR. What's the problem? You can survive without an AR in the beginning against Skulks; if you don't know this, you should try it out some time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I'm understanding you correctly, you're assuming that:
a marine without a rifle = a skulk (in terms of effectiveness)
and if you want the extra firepower of the rifle, you have to pay for it. That's really a balance issue that has nothing to do with the topic.
S'pose you're right :)