QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
As I said, imagine how lame it would be in NS1 for aliens to retain hive 2/3 abilities when they only have 1 hive. That's how marines in NS2 play at the moment. Marines don't have to really defend anything, which doesn't require a team effort at all. If there is actually some penalty other than 15 seconds of resource extraction time for losing a structure, it might encourage a little more team play to have both an offense and a defense.
<!--quoteo(post=1829315:date=Feb 3 2011, 02:08 AM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ Feb 3 2011, 02:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1829315"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As I said, imagine how lame it would be in NS1 for aliens to retain hive 2/3 abilities when they only have 1 hive. That's how marines in NS2 play at the moment. Marines don't have to really defend anything, which doesn't require a team effort at all. If there is actually some penalty other than 15 seconds of resource extraction time for losing a structure, it might encourage a little more team play to have both an offense and a defense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd rather like to retain alien abilities regardless of hives, actually I'd rather like to have all of them regardless of hive status, I never really saw the point with locking most of them, apart from really silly ones like xenocide. Having to constantly chase hive locations was rather annoying in NS1, I much prefer the NS2 focus on fighting in general and less on massive gambles with securing and taking hive locations. It is far more enjoyable to succeed or lose based on the performance of the team in general and not the success of an excessively high risk win/loss gamble, as that has very little to do with teamwork or skill or anything, it makes me feel as though I may as well not be playing, the game obviously isn't being affected by me because we win or lose based on one or two very small events.
In NS2 if I kill a marine structure I set them back, if I kill marines in general I stop them from expanding, if I help defend a hive I buy us time, if I simply tie up marines in looking for me I help build our advantage. All of these are useful because the game is won or lost based on things like this, the absence of things like 'kill this structure to cost the marines all their upgrades and the price of all their upgrades which basically wins the game for us' is what allows small and simple things like that to be worthwhile, and the game is better for it.
1 minute of resource time for an average structure assuming 3 extractors is quite good for a lone skulk. Imagine what you could do with two of them, or three, or maybe the whole team attacking a base.
Your incentive to defend is you lose a base if you don't, of course you shouldn't be expecting marines to sit and guard the base because that is quite obviously boring, but fortunately commanders have beacons and aliens will presumably have a movement chamber equivalent eventually, so both teams should be able to respond to attacks.
I like this idea. The armoury (which is huge) looks odd when placed in the middle of corridors or rooms in general.
I'd rather have a large structure in base that does the researching, and smaller wall or ground based (ip sort of sized) armouries to buy weapons from.
If I recall, you designate an armory for upgrades (weapons and armor level upgrades) to be your "research tech" armory (there will be holographic icons displayed above the armory just like in Cory's concept art of the armory) and one for being a weapons moduel/advanced armory which will have probably a weapon holographic image above it. Basically the research armory is replacing the arms lab.
Edit: I think going along these lines if it's the dev's plan for this, the weapon's module should be available immediately to unlock weapons researching. From there, the more Command Stations/Tiers you have, the more weapons will be unlocked for researching.
And if you want to do researching on actual tech (weapons and armor), I think there should be another module that you have to upgrade first in order to get those unlocked for researching, and then to access armor/weapons lvl 2, you'd need a 2nd Command station, and so forth. I think that's the best way. That way, if your marines just need a cheap armory, you wouldn't have to upgrade them all the time with modules on them. Your important command stations/tech upgrade centers will always be in your main base or expansion base.
I also do miss the arms lab in some ways, but this is their game and for sure it's not even close to being balanced/feature complete. I think everyone whose posted in this thread has a lack of impatience including myself and should just wait to see what happens.
1. The models for the when the armory is upgraded are not currently showing up. When it goes to advanced armory there should be a separate connector cap that gets placed on top. Then there should be the weapons module model that gets placed on top for the next tech tier. Neither of those are showing up for some reason, so it makes it hard to tell when an armory has been upgraded and what tech tier the marines are at.
2. It is going to be changed so that you can only buy the advanced weapons at an armory with those modules. And when that armory is destroyed those weapons can no longer be purchased (the researched tech will probably still be there but you need to build another weapons module again to be able to buy the weapons.
Ya I'm not really as interested in seeing the arms lab back as opposed to a proper solution to the stalemate issue and the importance of guarding your stuff and not for example rushing to grab a 2nd cc, recycling, turtling, then continuing on all while holding near nothing but having once owned 2 tech points.
1. The models for the when the armory is upgraded are not currently showing up. When it goes to advanced armory there should be a separate connector cap that gets placed on top. Then there should be the weapons module model that gets placed on top for the next tech tier. Neither of those are showing up for some reason, so it makes it hard to tell when an armory has been upgraded and what tech tier the marines are at.
2. It is going to be changed so that you can only buy the advanced weapons at an armory with those modules. And when that armory is destroyed those weapons can no longer be purchased (the researched tech will probably still be there but you need to build another weapons module again to be able to buy the weapons.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cool. Thanks for the reply. #2 is pretty much what we're asking for. As for #1, any plans to make the armory shake or do something to let others know something is being researched?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for #1, any plans to make the armory shake or do something to let others know something is being researched?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My idea for this was to use the screen that is built into the armory to indicate what current upgrade is going. Just have it have an image of the upgrade with a small progress bar under it. So if you're researching shotguns, the screen will show an image of a shotgun saying upgrading and have either a percent counter or a progress bar. Same with the modules too.
<!--quoteo(post=1829323:date=Feb 3 2011, 02:56 AM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ Feb 3 2011, 02:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1829323"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for #1, any plans to make the armory shake or do something to let others know something is being researched?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good question. Most of the other marine and alien structures have "researching" animations, but I think it was overlooked on the Armory. I like the idea of displaying something on those screens, but not sure if we have the tech for that. We'll look into this more.
Quovatis makes an excellent point, and it should be taken as a suggestion. Each structure should be tied to a certain UNIQUE high-level tech, so opponents have to make strategic choices as to which tech they wish to disable. Rather than put all upgrades on one building, do the opposite, spread them out. Of course, techs should be disabled if the building they're tied to is destroyed or disabled, or else there's no point to this. It is for that same reason that power nodes should have much more health than they do now, so one lone skulk cannot run around the map and kill undefended power nodes so easily; but similarly, it should be much more difficult to repair them; that way, killing a power node takes an actual investment in time and effort, and yields a decent and somewhat longevous advantage.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good question. Most of the other marine and alien structures have "researching" animations, but I think it was overlooked on the Armory. I like the idea of displaying something on those screens, but not sure if we have the tech for that. We'll look into this more.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not make a sprite like the one above the NS1 Armory, just with a progress bar and an icon of what is being researched?
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1829308:date=Feb 2 2011, 05:52 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Feb 2 2011, 05:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1829308"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can understand the need to have a valuable target to destroy, but you have those, I do not understand the need to have the arms lab specifically.
Just take out the infantry portals , the extractor, a sentry, or the power node, all of those will make the marines vulnerable/cost them money.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the idea is that we would like a way to temporarily stop marines from obtaining T2/3 level weapons after they have researched them. Tying those weapons to upgraded/weapons moduled armories rather than all armories (as UWE is planning to do) is a good solution. That way we have the option to cripple marine firepower as a stepping stone to crippling more important marine functions (e.g. ips and cs).
i agree that losing the building should take away the upgrades, but not on an armory to armory basis. it should be based on the tier. if you have a L2 command facility and it happens to be your only chair left, then you should still be able to build an advanced armory. if you have a L1 command chair and an L2 command facility, and the L2 command facility gets destroyed, you should not only lose the ability to build another advanced armory, but you should lose the L2 wep and L2 armor upgrade (but still be able to purchase the GL from the advanced armory until that advanced armory gets destroyed). If you get another L2 command facility up, your L2 wep and armor upgrades should be instantly restored (you already paid for it once).
You should not be able to buy a flamethrower from an armory without a wep module, and you should not be able to buy a GL from a non-advanced armory.
Same thing on the alien side. If you kill the only Hive Mass in play, then all aliens should revert back to L1 wep and armor. If all the whips get destroyed, then you shouldn't be able to upgrade to advanced leap or the other lifeform abilities that are coming. Drop another whip if you want them back.
didn't read every page here, so sorry if this was already said.
I support the idea of arms lab as I've suggested before because arms lab adds <i>versatility</i> to the game. Aliens need to decide which structure to take out first, giving different building different value at different stages of the game. It also makes it possible for marines to research several upgrades at the same time. In NS1 marines could go fast pgs, fast mt, fast upgrades, fast AA or even relocate, and decide how many early shotguns to drop. In NS2 as it is, the options of the commander are limited. Not only are limited options boring for balanced games, they hurt <i>imbalanced</i> games even more because commander cannot make tactical decision to outplay the enemy team and even more of the outcomes relies on individual performance instead of tactics. In NS1, a worse team could win a round against a better team by picking the correct tactic which suits the map, the players, and the expected enemy tactics.
The balance problems FocusedWolf was talking about is not really an issue. This wasn't issue in NS1, and it won't be in NS2 as long costs and income are balanced properly.
Jiriki speaks some important things. Versatility is important.
Aliens need to have options on targetting buildings. Marines need to have tech routes and possibilities to either tech up intensively or to invest elsewhere, not just 1 upgrade at a time. At least I can't see a standard res collecting and base building RTS functioning without some variation in build orders.
Buildings are an element of dialogue between teams too. Seeing an early obs, armslab or nothing but armory can affect the way team strategy works. If seeing one armory can mean a dozen things, there isn't much adaptation the alien team can do until they're facing the changes in the field.
Also, now with the commander apparently being less responsible for the equipment and having less dominant position over the res, I think we are seriously going to need each and every drop of versatility and adaptibility we can get. NS1 barely held together as an RTS experience WITH all the responsibility and versatility the commanding had there. Any less versatility and there might be some serious problem finding anyone willing to commit to the chair for more than an occassional round or two.
As usual, I don't want to dictate that the armslab/armory is the way to go, but I definitely do want that the positive and negative effects of such system get understood and that NS2 doesn't resort into a system that just dullifies the original system without adding any new options.
<!--quoteo(post=1829250:date=Feb 2 2011, 04:49 PM:name=GeneralBowser)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GeneralBowser @ Feb 2 2011, 04:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1829250"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 is NOT NS1. Its a NEW game so stop trying to make everything what it was. If I wanted to play NS1 I would play NS1, I want a NEW game experience!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NEW doesnt always equal GOOD
so youd be happy to throw away a game mechanic that works because something is new and shiny? nevermind the fact that it could break the game? with that reasoning I hope that they add mini nukes to the game. im sick to death of of this response.
Comments
I'd rather like to retain alien abilities regardless of hives, actually I'd rather like to have all of them regardless of hive status, I never really saw the point with locking most of them, apart from really silly ones like xenocide. Having to constantly chase hive locations was rather annoying in NS1, I much prefer the NS2 focus on fighting in general and less on massive gambles with securing and taking hive locations. It is far more enjoyable to succeed or lose based on the performance of the team in general and not the success of an excessively high risk win/loss gamble, as that has very little to do with teamwork or skill or anything, it makes me feel as though I may as well not be playing, the game obviously isn't being affected by me because we win or lose based on one or two very small events.
In NS2 if I kill a marine structure I set them back, if I kill marines in general I stop them from expanding, if I help defend a hive I buy us time, if I simply tie up marines in looking for me I help build our advantage. All of these are useful because the game is won or lost based on things like this, the absence of things like 'kill this structure to cost the marines all their upgrades and the price of all their upgrades which basically wins the game for us' is what allows small and simple things like that to be worthwhile, and the game is better for it.
1 minute of resource time for an average structure assuming 3 extractors is quite good for a lone skulk. Imagine what you could do with two of them, or three, or maybe the whole team attacking a base.
Your incentive to defend is you lose a base if you don't, of course you shouldn't be expecting marines to sit and guard the base because that is quite obviously boring, but fortunately commanders have beacons and aliens will presumably have a movement chamber equivalent eventually, so both teams should be able to respond to attacks.
I'd rather have a large structure in base that does the researching, and smaller wall or ground based (ip sort of sized) armouries to buy weapons from.
Edit: I think going along these lines if it's the dev's plan for this, the weapon's module should be available immediately to unlock weapons researching. From there, the more Command Stations/Tiers you have, the more weapons will be unlocked for researching.
And if you want to do researching on actual tech (weapons and armor), I think there should be another module that you have to upgrade first in order to get those unlocked for researching, and then to access armor/weapons lvl 2, you'd need a 2nd Command station, and so forth. I think that's the best way. That way, if your marines just need a cheap armory, you wouldn't have to upgrade them all the time with modules on them. Your important command stations/tech upgrade centers will always be in your main base or expansion base.
I also do miss the arms lab in some ways, but this is their game and for sure it's not even close to being balanced/feature complete. I think everyone whose posted in this thread has a lack of impatience including myself and should just wait to see what happens.
1. The models for the when the armory is upgraded are not currently showing up. When it goes to advanced armory there should be a separate connector cap that gets placed on top. Then there should be the weapons module model that gets placed on top for the next tech tier. Neither of those are showing up for some reason, so it makes it hard to tell when an armory has been upgraded and what tech tier the marines are at.
2. It is going to be changed so that you can only buy the advanced weapons at an armory with those modules. And when that armory is destroyed those weapons can no longer be purchased (the researched tech will probably still be there but you need to build another weapons module again to be able to buy the weapons.
--Cory
1. The models for the when the armory is upgraded are not currently showing up. When it goes to advanced armory there should be a separate connector cap that gets placed on top. Then there should be the weapons module model that gets placed on top for the next tech tier. Neither of those are showing up for some reason, so it makes it hard to tell when an armory has been upgraded and what tech tier the marines are at.
2. It is going to be changed so that you can only buy the advanced weapons at an armory with those modules. And when that armory is destroyed those weapons can no longer be purchased (the researched tech will probably still be there but you need to build another weapons module again to be able to buy the weapons.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cool. Thanks for the reply. #2 is pretty much what we're asking for. As for #1, any plans to make the armory shake or do something to let others know something is being researched?
My idea for this was to use the screen that is built into the armory to indicate what current upgrade is going. Just have it have an image of the upgrade with a small progress bar under it. So if you're researching shotguns, the screen will show an image of a shotgun saying upgrading and have either a percent counter or a progress bar. Same with the modules too.
As long as the module upgrade takes the same amount of time.
That being said would a level 2 command station(tier 2 tech) be a structural or tech upgrade.
Good question. Most of the other marine and alien structures have "researching" animations, but I think it was overlooked on the Armory. I like the idea of displaying something on those screens, but not sure if we have the tech for that. We'll look into this more.
--Cory
Each structure should be tied to a certain UNIQUE high-level tech, so opponents have to make strategic choices as to which tech they wish to disable. Rather than put all upgrades on one building, do the opposite, spread them out. Of course, techs should be disabled if the building they're tied to is destroyed or disabled, or else there's no point to this.
It is for that same reason that power nodes should have much more health than they do now, so one lone skulk cannot run around the map and kill undefended power nodes so easily; but similarly, it should be much more difficult to repair them; that way, killing a power node takes an actual investment in time and effort, and yields a decent and somewhat longevous advantage.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not make a sprite like the one above the NS1 Armory, just with a progress bar and an icon of what is being researched?
And what of w/a upgrades, will those be temporarily lost if the armory is destroyed (assuming no others exist)?
Just take out the infantry portals , the extractor, a sentry, or the power node, all of those will make the marines vulnerable/cost them money.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the idea is that we would like a way to temporarily stop marines from obtaining T2/3 level weapons after they have researched them. Tying those weapons to upgraded/weapons moduled armories rather than all armories (as UWE is planning to do) is a good solution. That way we have the option to cripple marine firepower as a stepping stone to crippling more important marine functions (e.g. ips and cs).
I see the troll is out of it's cave again. Flame on
You should not be able to buy a flamethrower from an armory without a wep module, and you should not be able to buy a GL from a non-advanced armory.
Same thing on the alien side. If you kill the only Hive Mass in play, then all aliens should revert back to L1 wep and armor. If all the whips get destroyed, then you shouldn't be able to upgrade to advanced leap or the other lifeform abilities that are coming. Drop another whip if you want them back.
didn't read every page here, so sorry if this was already said.
The balance problems FocusedWolf was talking about is not really an issue. This wasn't issue in NS1, and it won't be in NS2 as long costs and income are balanced properly.
Aliens need to have options on targetting buildings. Marines need to have tech routes and possibilities to either tech up intensively or to invest elsewhere, not just 1 upgrade at a time. At least I can't see a standard res collecting and base building RTS functioning without some variation in build orders.
Buildings are an element of dialogue between teams too. Seeing an early obs, armslab or nothing but armory can affect the way team strategy works. If seeing one armory can mean a dozen things, there isn't much adaptation the alien team can do until they're facing the changes in the field.
Also, now with the commander apparently being less responsible for the equipment and having less dominant position over the res, I think we are seriously going to need each and every drop of versatility and adaptibility we can get. NS1 barely held together as an RTS experience WITH all the responsibility and versatility the commanding had there. Any less versatility and there might be some serious problem finding anyone willing to commit to the chair for more than an occassional round or two.
As usual, I don't want to dictate that the armslab/armory is the way to go, but I definitely do want that the positive and negative effects of such system get understood and that NS2 doesn't resort into a system that just dullifies the original system without adding any new options.
NEW doesnt always equal GOOD
so youd be happy to throw away a game mechanic that works because something is new and shiny? nevermind the fact that it could break the game? with that reasoning I hope that they add mini nukes to the game. im sick to death of of this response.