Macs or Weldbots
Price
Join Date: 2003-09-27 Member: 21247Members
Join Date: 2003-09-27 Member: 21247Members
<div class="IPBDescription">repairing</div>Its beta of course but i think reparing is to fast.
Trainee had a good idea of like only repairing if the structure isn't beeing attacked.
For example i attack a rt, like 10 weldbots or what they called now, repair it in like 2 seconds to 100%, while i still attack i could not destroy it, it goes from 5% to 10% and on.
So in my mind the weldbots should only repair a building/powernode if its not under attack.
What did you think?
Trainee had a good idea of like only repairing if the structure isn't beeing attacked.
For example i attack a rt, like 10 weldbots or what they called now, repair it in like 2 seconds to 100%, while i still attack i could not destroy it, it goes from 5% to 10% and on.
So in my mind the weldbots should only repair a building/powernode if its not under attack.
What did you think?
Comments
Same with constructing buildings, so that spamming MAC's won't actually benefit you in construction/repair.
Downside - requires even more micro... (something aliens comms dont really have to care about - at least for now)
I agree with you, stacking macs commander can build or repair anything almost instantly. In fact macs in general are taking away marines objectives/class roles. I've had games where commander stacked enough macs (5+), he never needed marines for anything at all, pretty game breaking.
1. a marine was with the macs
2. it was over 4 macs
3. the RT had 4%, 3 more bites it would be down, but while i bite, the weldbots repair it to 10% while i bite...and this goes on, for example wehen i attacked the weldbots and there is a marine too, i killed him but the rt had full health (yeah weldbots are fast!), then i bite the wb down and it repeats...but this time it was two marines.
Or the same with a powernode, it can be repaired so fast + mobile powernodes comming!
4. Weldbots can fly, you can not reach them, the commander can put them out the level, in higher level or just back to base, you are never that fast like weldbots, except lerks.
5. a weldbot need a lot of bites, if you attack them while they repair, the rt has like full health and a marine comes to kill you, this goes on and on...
<!--quoteo(post=1825757:date=Jan 20 2011, 11:08 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Jan 20 2011, 11:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825757"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(...) a skulk munching on a power node ...
ie:
bashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbash
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ashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashb
shbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashba
hbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbas
bashbashbashbashbashbashbashbashbash (powernode) down yay! * ouchouchouchouch * dies.
Then a MAC stack flies up and poof insta repaired...
(...)
Too many MAC's can undo a lot of strategic attacks, just by massing in a stack ... even if you try take 'em out by the time you reduce the stack the node is already repaired.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
..so limiting the amount of repairing bots to one per building is necessary.
1.limit macs in general (how many macs can only be spawned at same time)
2.macs cannot be stacked, only one mac can repair/build at a time so commander cannot make 5 bots to increase his repair/build time. (since now easily 5 macs can do everything for commander without even needing any marines at all)
3. macs can be hidden inside walls, under objects and they go through walls as well
4. macs move very quickly, speed must be limited. skulks have problems catching moving macs running away, in many cases macs outrun them.
5.reduce build/repair of macs further than what we have now, commander should not depend on macs to do everything for him - marines should be doing more work
6.limit where mac can go, for example mac can only build in rooms where power nodes are up. If power node isn't up, mac must build power node before he can build anything else.
7.bring back welders into the game, reduce what macs can or cannot repair - dropping welder for marines for certain roles of objectives is needed.
2. it was over 4 macs
3. the RT had 4%, 3 more bites it would be down, but while i bite, the weldbots repair it to 10% while i bite...and this goes on, for example wehen i attacked the weldbots and there is a marine too, i killed him but the rt had full health (yeah weldbots are fast!), then i bite the wb down and it repeats...but this time it was two marines.
Or the same with a powernode, it can be repaired so fast + mobile powernodes comming!
4. Weldbots can fly, you can not reach them, the commander can put them out the level, in higher level or just back to base, you are never that fast like weldbots, except lerks.
5. a weldbot need a lot of bites, if you attack them while they repair, the rt has like full health and a marine comes to kill you, this goes on and on...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This just seems like good teamwork and organization on the part of the marines. Making it so a skulk could kill an extractor under those conditions would make the skulk op imo. At current structure prices, it should take a lot of work (multiple, organized skulks, lerks, fades) to kill any marine structures.
Also, MACs are not unlimited. If you kill enough of them, the marine commander will start to run out. I've had problems keeping up enough MACs against some good teams who target them first.
<!--quoteo(post=1831140:date=Feb 10 2011, 01:33 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Feb 10 2011, 01:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831140"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->some things need to be done:
1.limit macs in general (how many macs can only be spawned at same time)
2.macs cannot be stacked, only one mac can repair/build at a time so commander cannot make 5 bots to increase his repair/build time. (since now easily 5 macs can do everything for commander without even needing any marines at all)
3. macs can be hidden inside walls, under objects and they go through walls as well
4. macs move very quickly, speed must be limited. skulks have problems catching moving macs running away, in many cases macs outrun them.
5.reduce build/repair of macs further than what we have now, commander should not depend on macs to do everything for him - marines should be doing more work
6.limit where mac can go, for example mac can only build in rooms where power nodes are up. If power node isn't up, mac must build power node before he can build anything else.
7.bring back welders into the game, reduce what macs can or cannot repair - dropping welder for marines for certain roles of objectives is needed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd only support 1 and 3. Doing all 7 would basically be a de facto removal of MACs from the game. As a commander, I want the ability to be able to build structures and expand without the need for marines as long as those structures/expansions are not under attack. IMO, marines should always be in the action on the front line, whether that be attacking or defending a tech point. Requiring marines to stay back to build structures or always defend is a poor game mechanic.
As for the role of the MAC, I'd say cap the total number at one (to something like 10), make them so they can't hide under structures or outside the map, and reduce the cost to something like 15 energy. They should be independent enough to do most everything, but worst than could be done by the marines directing (e.g. if it takes 30s for one MAC to build a cs, then a marine should be able to do it in 15s).
Haven't you realised that's what he's proposing?
I know, but I wanted to state it clearly so everyone understands.
you also said macs aren't really unlimited, well make test server and count how many you can make. You only need around 4-5 macs right now to almost instantly build or repair anything, but I guess you think that's perfectly fine? But of course the more macs you have the faster you build and repair. I've had games where I was trying to kill some macs and the commander had so many I was standing there killing over 10 macs easy, while ton more stood there repairing.
some of you seriously have to be realistic about macs, you can't have bot doing everything, and removing the need of having marine there. in the end you will have easy mode game for commanding, any Joe will be pro with his macs doing everything for him because he doesn't need to depend on his marines.
i've listed 7 problems I see with macs, at least 4 out of 7 has to be implemented.
you also said macs aren't really unlimited, well make test server and count how many you can make. You only need around 4-5 macs right now to almost instantly build or repair anything, but I guess you think that's perfectly fine? But of course the more macs you have the faster you build and repair. I've had games where I was trying to kill some macs and the commander had so many I was standing there killing over 10 macs easy, while ton more stood there repairing.
some of you seriously have to be realistic about macs, you can't have bot doing everything, and removing the need of having marine there. in the end you will have easy mode game for commanding, any Joe will be pro with his macs doing everything for him because he doesn't need to depend on his marines.
i've listed 7 problems I see with macs, at least 4 out of 7 has to be implemented.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The marines job is killing aliens, not building structures in my opinion. I don't mind letting marines help with construction, but the commander should be able to do all of that without relying on his marines. Otherwise, commanding will become as stressful and cumbersome as it was in NS1, where you had matches in which your team didn't help build anything. That's one of the biggest downsides to any FPS/RTS game.
MACs are limited by the match length right now. Since matches are fairly long right now (40-60 min) that means you can usually make a limited number, but much more than are really needed (which is why I support a hard cap).
IIRC, the difficulty of commanding was one of the major problems in NS1. Why would we want to carry over one of the serious problems of NS1 into NS2. Commanding should be like chess, easy to learn, but hard to master. Right now, its basically hard to learn, but easy to master.
you said so much I just can't go into detail saying everything I've tried to say before. All i can say now, class roles and making game about just shooting your rifle will get tiring pretty quick. Things need to be challenging, commanding with macs is just cheap, i'm sorry.
Anyway lets see if they fix the weldbots or not, i mean killing a drifter is so easy, but a weldbots has so much ways to get away from aliens, a drifter not.
p.s.
a marine can kill a Hive with ONE full Shotgun...in some minutes a cc can not be killed that fast by one alien.
you said so much I just can't go into detail saying everything I've tried to say before. All i can say now, class roles and making game about just shooting your rifle will get tiring pretty quick. Things need to be challenging, commanding with macs is just cheap, i'm sorry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait wait, so you're saying:
1. Commanders are DOING MORE BY THEMSELVES, instead of marines
2. AND YET Commanders have been dumbed down
Riiiiiiiiiight. Notice the contradiction?
Rather than commanders being dumbed down, they've instead brought the commander gameplay closer to a traditional, familiar RTS. This is a good thing.
I want you to also remember that marines can actually build, and do so much faster than a MAC. If you want to put away your gun and help them build, please do.
I'll agree that MAC-stacking looks ridiculous, and maybe MACs need a cap per command station, but that's as much as I'll agree with anything you've said.
1. Commanders are DOING MORE BY THEMSELVES, instead of marines
2. AND YET Commanders have been dumbed down
Riiiiiiiiiight. Notice the contradiction?
Rather than commanders being dumbed down, they've instead brought the commander gameplay closer to a traditional, familiar RTS. This is a good thing.
I want you to also remember that marines can actually build, and do so much faster than a MAC. If you want to put away your gun and help them build, please do.
I'll agree that MAC-stacking looks ridiculous, and maybe MACs need a cap per command station, but that's as much as I'll agree with anything you've said.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
read what i write.
<b>commanding</b> has been dumbed down.
developers want commanding to be easy, and macs are making it far too easy. If you can't see this from playing marines or commanding yourself, you must've not commanded in ns1.
right now commanders are stacking macs to build/repair faster (almost instantly done)
right now commanders can build unlimited number of macs
right now they go through walls, and can be hidden inside walls to repair or build
right now they can be hidden inside objects, or under them
right now commander can have enough macs without depending on marines to do anything at all
right now all marines do run around shooting their rfiles only < bring back class roles, give marines different tasks everyone has same task "go shoot" more reasons to bring back welders into the game, more reasons to limit how macs work
commanding should be challenging, and not depend how many macs you control.
anyone can be pro commander with current commanding style, and those who see these flaws more than others enjoy abusing them.
Anyway lets see if they fix the weldbots or not, i mean killing a drifter is so easy, but a weldbots has so much ways to get away from aliens, a drifter not.
p.s.
a marine can kill a Hive with ONE full Shotgun...in some minutes a cc can not be killed that fast by one alien.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Drifters are not that easy to kill, its just that the shotgun is currently op. They are also much cheaper than MACs.
Also, drifters can hide outside of the map also. The alien comms problem is that they can't use the drifters to heal structures, so they are dependent on gorges to fix everything (which few people actually do right now). I frequently find it necessary to switch hives as alien comm so that I can more quickly jump out and heal damaged structures as a gorge.
gorges have weak heals, and crags themselves are pretty weak. I remember running inside the hive, with three crags there, and I was able to bring down the hive just as fast even if crags weren't there. So healing abilities from crags and gorges are pretty weak, also gorges cannot heal themselves which really isn't good at all during combat.
gorges have weak heals, and crags themselves are pretty weak. I remember running inside the hive, with three crags there, and I was able to bring down the hive just as fast even if crags weren't there. So healing abilities from crags and gorges are pretty weak, also gorges cannot heal themselves which really isn't good at all during combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Reducing shotgun damage to hives would eliminate most of the problem. I find the gorge healing spray to be quite effective. However, I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen somebody other than myself use it in a game. Also, gorge is supposed to be a support class, not combat class. Self-healing would make them pretty op imo.
self healing gorge might become overpowered? really dude?
right now commanders can build unlimited number of macs
right now they go through walls, and can be hidden inside walls to repair or build
right now they can be hidden inside objects, or under them<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are an idiot. Those are all bugs and exploits, and if you think they're intended, well, read my first sentence again.
Also, stop going on about this 'class role' bullsh**. You're not fooling anybody. You just want NS1 re-skinned.
Commanding has not been dumbed down. In fact, marines have become more specialised in forward assaulting. MACs exist as support, controlled by the commander. The commander exists as support and guidance. The marines on the field exist for assault and defense, with different equipment loadouts leading to different specialisations within this role. There's your class roles.
As for welders, hey, sure, let's have them in. They can take up the first equipment slot. Makes sense, I mean, what would make them create more of a class role than that? You agree with me right luns? Welders will replace rifles, shotguns and flamethrowers for players that choose to do so.
Although I might come off as sounding sarcastic (and I am), I actually think it's a good idea. People can forego firepower for superior on-the-field support.
Hell, if you made it a formal weapon, you could make it so that it takes out very little health, but takes out a lot of armour. It'll be essential (in groups with other marines) for taking out Onoses and Fades with their very high armour values. I'm liking this idea more and more.