<!--quoteo(post=1835261:date=Feb 27 2011, 03:47 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Feb 27 2011, 03:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835261"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At this point in development, its not so much the art time, as the programming time. We could put in a giant orange box as a stand in model, but it still needs the programming time to make it fully functional from a gameplay standpoint. Since art is no longer the bottleneck, by the time the programming time is available, the art is usually ready to go, so it often makes sense to just wait for the final art to be done.
But we still use placeholder graphics to test gameplay, as you can see in the rough implementation of DI that is in the current beta.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah, my bad. Earlier on in this thread it had sounded like art was kinda bottlenecked and would prevent something like trying an arms lab. But even if that's eliminated, the programming end being tight makes a lot more sense XD
It still makes me curious, though. The functions we're discussing the arms lab having (namely unlocking upgrades and needing to be alive to keep them) are already more or less in the game, just assigned to the armory, right? (unless upgrades are kept even if armories are down, I'm having a brain fart) One would think you could more or less copy those functions over, and assign them to a different entity, couldn't you? Of course, I could see programming how the commander's interaction with another building would take time, not to mention ironing out inevitable bugs that come with changes.
Another thing you've got me wondering about now is how you just described the art/programming relationship. While I understand what you're getting at, doesn't that really apply to features that have been more or less decided on? I doubt you make final art passes on things that are still skeptical, unless the team is really adamant about making it work, or unless you have the time to spare.
No matter how much it does or doesn't slow the Gorge down, the infestation deploying at the place you're aiming at the end of the animation instead of when you click the button feels very wrong. Even if it doesn't deploy instantly, it should always go in the spot where you clicked it.
<!--quoteo(post=1835267:date=Feb 27 2011, 09:13 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Feb 27 2011, 09:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835267"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While I understand what you're getting at, doesn't that really apply to features that have been more or less decided on? I doubt you make final art passes on things that are still skeptical, unless the team is really adamant about making it work, or unless you have the time to spare.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, in an ideal world the features are pretty well worked out from a gameplay standpoint, before the final art is done, but in reality its much more complicated and intertwined then that. While the art is mostly meant to support and follow the gameplay as often as possible there are times when the art actually influences the gameplay. Same goes for the programming / art relationship. An art asset which seems like it will be easy to make work a certain way ends up being a huge headache on the technical side when it comes time for final implementation.
For the most part we do try to avoid spending too much time on the final art/animations for features we are really not certain are going to make it in the game, but at the same time we can't just have artists and animators sitting around idle while waiting for the final gameplay and programming to be done. Since we did not start with an existing engine on the development of NS2, it has taken much longer to get the game to a playable state in order to properly test out all the gameplay features, so we've had to make the decision to forge ahead on creating art assets and animations for features that have not been thoroughly figured out from a gameplay standpoint. The same goes for other game companies. There are many times when a feature, or level, or character etc. is cut near the end of the development process, after the art has already been finalized, which can be painful at times. Often times final art ends up having to be revised as well, due to gameplay changes or programming restrictions.
Since our resources are so limited on NS2, we have been very careful to not waste art assets, however, and I think so far pretty much every art asset that has been made has made it into the game or is planned to definitely be implemented before release.
<!--quoteo(post=1835291:date=Feb 27 2011, 11:58 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Feb 27 2011, 11:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835291"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No matter how much it does or doesn't slow the Gorge down, the infestation deploying at the place you're aiming at the end of the animation instead of when you click the button feels very wrong. Even if it doesn't deploy instantly, it should always go in the spot where you clicked it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We've been very careful to insure that animations are created in a way that allows for the player to get instant feedback when they click the button. There have been a lot of animations that were revised to remove the anticipation in the beginning, which, while visually more realistic or interesting, kept an attack or ability from feeling as responsive as necessary.
The gorge deploying infestation was not part of the original set of abilities and was added quickly at the last minute, and therefore it is using existing animations and needs more programming polish as well. It will be revised to be more responsive and to work better overall.
This sounds like you art guys are working too fast for your programmers.
A way to optimize this would be to spend 50% of the time of the "art department" on a new set of map textures/props - mappers really need more toys to play with. Something that looks completely different. I know you have something in the pipeline there, I think you should spend more time on that instead of harassing your programmers ;)
As this does not need programming at all it's a way your programmers would have more time to do things properly without so much haste - and they would have more time to optimize the engine...
<!--quoteo(post=1835294:date=Feb 27 2011, 07:19 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Feb 27 2011, 07:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835294"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since our resources are so limited on NS2, we have been very careful to not waste art assets, however, and I think so far pretty much every art asset that has been made has made it into the game or is planned to definitely be implemented before release.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like a good approach considering your situation. I can understand the pain of doing something for nothing, or having to redo things over and over. I've been an artist for a long time, and am trying to get a comic out. Cut scenes or bogus pages take a lot out of you, depending on how long you've been working on them. Back to NS2, though, you keep making me think about more stuff :P
So, according to your description, you're probably spending your time working on art assets for things that are more or less going in the game. Whether it's finalizing an alien upgrade chamber, or redoing old assets to match new situations, it's gonna be going into things that aren't... speculative. Now, all I've had a chance to see you do via video releases is more or less concept art, whether its for scenery, objects, players, or bases for special effects. I'm just wondering, what else do you do on a day to day basis? You were talking about how you conserve the artists' time, but what do they use the time for? :) I'm sure concepts for new maps and assets are in there, but do you help out with animating, texturing, mapping, or anything else like that?
And since the thread is around gameplay development decisions, what's an example of something you had to cut after completing (most of?) the art for?
<!--quoteo(post=1835300:date=Feb 28 2011, 01:15 AM:name=TheLord)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheLord @ Feb 28 2011, 01:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835300"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This sounds like you art guys are working too fast for your programmers.
A way to optimize this would be to spend 50% of the time of the "art department" on a new set of map textures/props - mappers really need more toys to play with. Something that looks completely different. I know you have something in the pipeline there, I think you should spend more time on that instead of harassing your programmers ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Our current art department is not very big. Its currently made up of one guy who is spending almost 100% of his time on environment textures/props, another guy working on FX and some mapping, an art tech guy who makes sure everything is working properly in game, and then several animators. We outsource a lot of our assets, such as the marine structures. When the concepts for those are ready we send them along to the guys that we work with on a contract basis and pay them per asset. Not all of the map props being done are being released to the public just yet, as we are holding some back for the official in house maps we are working on. <!--quoteo(post=1835310:date=Feb 28 2011, 02:49 AM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Feb 28 2011, 02:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835310"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now, all I've had a chance to see you do via video releases is more or less concept art, whether its for scenery, objects, players, or bases for special effects. I'm just wondering, what else do you do on a day to day basis? You were talking about how you conserve the artists' time, but what do they use the time for? :) I'm sure concepts for new maps and assets are in there, but do you help out with animating, texturing, mapping, or anything else like that?
And since the thread is around gameplay development decisions, what's an example of something you had to cut after completing (most of?) the art for?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> My time is split between concept art and then actual art direction. So, my job doesn't end when I send off a piece of concept art to be created, I then oversee the artists involved in the entire process of getting it in game. So, that means I write up notes and create paintovers for feedback during the modeling process and texturing process, and communicate with the animators as to what needs to be done, and then give feedback to them, as well. Same goes for the mapping side. I am constantly in touch with the mappers, providing them with quick paintovers of areas, working with them to figure out new areas, themes, and figuring out how to rework parts of the map for better gameplay or visual purposes. I also create storyboards for cinematics that we do (like the Fade reveal) and oversee the cinematic creation from a direction side. I create images such as wallpapers, logos and banner ads for PR and Marketing, and as less concept art is needed I've been doing a bit more in game stuff, such as commander mode UI mockups/ in game artwork, and some textures for a few effects here and there. My days are pretty broken up with a variety of tasks and meetings, and there isn't really a typical work day.
As far as cutting something that the final art has been created for, that thankfully hasn't happened yet. But the game is still taking form and there may be bigger changes down the road that lead to a feature being scrapped, but so far we've done a good job of avoiding creating art assets for the riskier features. The taser is a good example of something where, we did jsut a preliminary concept sketch, but because we were uncertain about it as a feature we held back from creating the final concept and the model/texture for it. So, we didn't lose much art time when we decided it wasn't the best direction to go in. --Cory
@ cory: Thank you for giving us an overview of your tasks.
@ Papayas: I think they have talked about that but have other things in the focus right now. Until then - remember the game is called "Natural Selection" - .... we have to deal with it ;-)
<!--quoteo(post=1835832:date=Mar 3 2011, 09:17 PM:name=Shilorius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shilorius @ Mar 3 2011, 09:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835832"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@ cory: Thank you for giving us an overview of your tasks.
@ Papayas: I think they have talked about that but have other things in the focus right now. Until then - remember the game is called "Natural Selection" - .... we have to deal with it ;-)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But it is still lame :D
*Hint hint nudge nudge* Ghostly voice: Nerf the shotgun......... Nerf the shotgunnnnnnnnnn...............
Comments
But we still use placeholder graphics to test gameplay, as you can see in the rough implementation of DI that is in the current beta.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah, my bad. Earlier on in this thread it had sounded like art was kinda bottlenecked and would prevent something like trying an arms lab. But even if that's eliminated, the programming end being tight makes a lot more sense XD
It still makes me curious, though. The functions we're discussing the arms lab having (namely unlocking upgrades and needing to be alive to keep them) are already more or less in the game, just assigned to the armory, right? (unless upgrades are kept even if armories are down, I'm having a brain fart) One would think you could more or less copy those functions over, and assign them to a different entity, couldn't you?
Of course, I could see programming how the commander's interaction with another building would take time, not to mention ironing out inevitable bugs that come with changes.
Another thing you've got me wondering about now is how you just described the art/programming relationship. While I understand what you're getting at, doesn't that really apply to features that have been more or less decided on? I doubt you make final art passes on things that are still skeptical, unless the team is really adamant about making it work, or unless you have the time to spare.
Yes, in an ideal world the features are pretty well worked out from a gameplay standpoint, before the final art is done, but in reality its much more complicated and intertwined then that. While the art is mostly meant to support and follow the gameplay as often as possible there are times when the art actually influences the gameplay. Same goes for the programming / art relationship. An art asset which seems like it will be easy to make work a certain way ends up being a huge headache on the technical side when it comes time for final implementation.
For the most part we do try to avoid spending too much time on the final art/animations for features we are really not certain are going to make it in the game, but at the same time we can't just have artists and animators sitting around idle while waiting for the final gameplay and programming to be done. Since we did not start with an existing engine on the development of NS2, it has taken much longer to get the game to a playable state in order to properly test out all the gameplay features, so we've had to make the decision to forge ahead on creating art assets and animations for features that have not been thoroughly figured out from a gameplay standpoint. The same goes for other game companies. There are many times when a feature, or level, or character etc. is cut near the end of the development process, after the art has already been finalized, which can be painful at times. Often times final art ends up having to be revised as well, due to gameplay changes or programming restrictions.
Since our resources are so limited on NS2, we have been very careful to not waste art assets, however, and I think so far pretty much every art asset that has been made has made it into the game or is planned to definitely be implemented before release.
--Cory
We've been very careful to insure that animations are created in a way that allows for the player to get instant feedback when they click the button. There have been a lot of animations that were revised to remove the anticipation in the beginning, which, while visually more realistic or interesting, kept an attack or ability from feeling as responsive as necessary.
The gorge deploying infestation was not part of the original set of abilities and was added quickly at the last minute, and therefore it is using existing animations and needs more programming polish as well. It will be revised to be more responsive and to work better overall.
--Cory
A way to optimize this would be to spend 50% of the time of the "art department" on a new set of map textures/props - mappers really need more toys to play with. Something that looks completely different.
I know you have something in the pipeline there, I think you should spend more time on that instead of harassing your programmers ;)
As this does not need programming at all it's a way your programmers would have more time to do things properly without so much haste - and they would have more time to optimize the engine...
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like a good approach considering your situation. I can understand the pain of doing something for nothing, or having to redo things over and over. I've been an artist for a long time, and am trying to get a comic out. Cut scenes or bogus pages take a lot out of you, depending on how long you've been working on them.
Back to NS2, though, you keep making me think about more stuff :P
So, according to your description, you're probably spending your time working on art assets for things that are more or less going in the game. Whether it's finalizing an alien upgrade chamber, or redoing old assets to match new situations, it's gonna be going into things that aren't... speculative. Now, all I've had a chance to see you do via video releases is more or less concept art, whether its for scenery, objects, players, or bases for special effects. I'm just wondering, what else do you do on a day to day basis? You were talking about how you conserve the artists' time, but what do they use the time for? :)
I'm sure concepts for new maps and assets are in there, but do you help out with animating, texturing, mapping, or anything else like that?
And since the thread is around gameplay development decisions, what's an example of something you had to cut after completing (most of?) the art for?
A way to optimize this would be to spend 50% of the time of the "art department" on a new set of map textures/props - mappers really need more toys to play with. Something that looks completely different.
I know you have something in the pipeline there, I think you should spend more time on that instead of harassing your programmers ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Our current art department is not very big. Its currently made up of one guy who is spending almost 100% of his time on environment textures/props, another guy working on FX and some mapping, an art tech guy who makes sure everything is working properly in game, and then several animators. We outsource a lot of our assets, such as the marine structures. When the concepts for those are ready we send them along to the guys that we work with on a contract basis and pay them per asset. Not all of the map props being done are being released to the public just yet, as we are holding some back for the official in house maps we are working on.
<!--quoteo(post=1835310:date=Feb 28 2011, 02:49 AM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Feb 28 2011, 02:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835310"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now, all I've had a chance to see you do via video releases is more or less concept art, whether its for scenery, objects, players, or bases for special effects. I'm just wondering, what else do you do on a day to day basis? You were talking about how you conserve the artists' time, but what do they use the time for? :)
I'm sure concepts for new maps and assets are in there, but do you help out with animating, texturing, mapping, or anything else like that?
And since the thread is around gameplay development decisions, what's an example of something you had to cut after completing (most of?) the art for?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My time is split between concept art and then actual art direction. So, my job doesn't end when I send off a piece of concept art to be created, I then oversee the artists involved in the entire process of getting it in game. So, that means I write up notes and create paintovers for feedback during the modeling process and texturing process, and communicate with the animators as to what needs to be done, and then give feedback to them, as well. Same goes for the mapping side. I am constantly in touch with the mappers, providing them with quick paintovers of areas, working with them to figure out new areas, themes, and figuring out how to rework parts of the map for better gameplay or visual purposes. I also create storyboards for cinematics that we do (like the Fade reveal) and oversee the cinematic creation from a direction side. I create images such as wallpapers, logos and banner ads for PR and Marketing, and as less concept art is needed I've been doing a bit more in game stuff, such as commander mode UI mockups/ in game artwork, and some textures for a few effects here and there. My days are pretty broken up with a variety of tasks and meetings, and there isn't really a typical work day.
As far as cutting something that the final art has been created for, that thankfully hasn't happened yet. But the game is still taking form and there may be bigger changes down the road that lead to a feature being scrapped, but so far we've done a good job of avoiding creating art assets for the riskier features. The taser is a good example of something where, we did jsut a preliminary concept sketch, but because we were uncertain about it as a feature we held back from creating the final concept and the model/texture for it. So, we didn't lose much art time when we decided it wasn't the best direction to go in.
--Cory
For gods sake... crappy OP marine weapons... UWE need to include a nerf in build 167!
It currently does 200 damage (Max) needs to be decreased to 100 damage.
The spread needs to be smaller.
Shotgun is MUCH better than Flamethrower. The shotgun is OP... :/
I can't see "Nerf Shotgun" in the progress list.
Did they forget to add it?
Thank you for giving us an overview of your tasks.
@ Papayas:
I think they have talked about that but have other things in the focus right now.
Until then - remember the game is called "Natural Selection" - .... we have to deal with it ;-)
Thank you for giving us an overview of your tasks.
@ Papayas:
I think they have talked about that but have other things in the focus right now.
Until then - remember the game is called "Natural Selection" - .... we have to deal with it ;-)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But it is still lame :D
*Hint hint nudge nudge*
Ghostly voice: Nerf the shotgun......... Nerf the shotgunnnnnnnnnn...............