Last red node dead = End game.
Papayas
Join Date: 2010-07-01 Member: 72219Members
Join Date: 2010-07-01 Member: 72219Members
<div class="IPBDescription">I think this could be a problem.</div>Basically,
I am trying to say that when the last Res Node for either side is lost and they do not have the resources to get another one the game is basically lost by that side.
One of the games we had was with a bunch of noobs who kept on rushing. One of the noobs kept on raging about how much NS2 was crap and blabbering on about how the flamethrower is REALLY good and OP. Which I do not think it is.
Well anyway, the marines kept on rushing early at the start of the game and attempting to get our first/last Res node. Normally, just after they did this we did not have enough Res to build another one because we had just started to get the second hive up.
Personnaly, I think this is not a problem on Rockdown but it is definitely a problem on Tram The marines can easily take a few of the Res nodes but the aliens can't do that - it takes too long. Rockdown is fine because you can get a Res Node with your next Hive/Command-Station.
I think this could be more of a map problem but one way to solve it is by getting a way for Aliens to quickly advance.
I forgot to add that it doesn't mean End game for the team who lost the last res node because normally after I found out that this happend I alerted my team and told everyone to go for thier base and skulk rush them. Otherwise we were going to die.
This also made the problem that skulk rushing is still effective but when I became commander on the Marines side and I was against the skulk rushers we managed to defend very well. Until my team decided to rage quit and it was me versus 4 fades :\
I am trying to say that when the last Res Node for either side is lost and they do not have the resources to get another one the game is basically lost by that side.
One of the games we had was with a bunch of noobs who kept on rushing. One of the noobs kept on raging about how much NS2 was crap and blabbering on about how the flamethrower is REALLY good and OP. Which I do not think it is.
Well anyway, the marines kept on rushing early at the start of the game and attempting to get our first/last Res node. Normally, just after they did this we did not have enough Res to build another one because we had just started to get the second hive up.
Personnaly, I think this is not a problem on Rockdown but it is definitely a problem on Tram The marines can easily take a few of the Res nodes but the aliens can't do that - it takes too long. Rockdown is fine because you can get a Res Node with your next Hive/Command-Station.
I think this could be more of a map problem but one way to solve it is by getting a way for Aliens to quickly advance.
I forgot to add that it doesn't mean End game for the team who lost the last res node because normally after I found out that this happend I alerted my team and told everyone to go for thier base and skulk rush them. Otherwise we were going to die.
This also made the problem that skulk rushing is still effective but when I became commander on the Marines side and I was against the skulk rushers we managed to defend very well. Until my team decided to rage quit and it was me versus 4 fades :\
Comments
<!--quoteo(post=1834548:date=Feb 23 2011, 09:37 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Feb 23 2011, 09:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834548"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So basically, when one team has completely dominated the other team, for example the other team has no resource towers, there will be some audio, maybe HUD, maybe visual effects urging the players+commander on the one team to "FINISH HIM!". Kinda like bloodlust, battle fervour, that sort of thing. Aliens could have a "KILL! KILL! KILL!", marines could have a "YEEHAW!" or somesuch. So basically, the other team needs to know they've lost, so put them out of their misery.
This suggestion is about 2 parts serious to 1 part joke. Please consider it in the same way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Positive encouragement ftw.
i have zerg rushed the enemy's strait off the bat and camped there crystals. i have had zealots come into my base and shamed my drones, i have built spike canals on enemy zerg creep right next too there drones, and i have had the same done too me. para dropped guys in to kill enemy harvesters or send in a small squad of any thing tank killing too take out enemy harvesters, ###### even follow them back to base to see were that is at. all viable strats.
you as a com need to learn the signs of the enemy doing this and then put several effective back up plans into action. the only difference with NS2. is you need too communicate that plan to your soldiers. as appose to selecting a bunch of npc's and sending them too there demise. then you just hope the other players listen, and that you can recover from it.
here's a few id use on tram. explain and make a push for double res. its a lot of slogging. make a push to server room send a gorge. and a skulk grantee one or two enemy's will show up there too stop you. better yet make a push from tram hub. the enemy is less likely too look there. push too observatory. wait for enemy to run past to server build there. they may of stopped too build they may not of. worst case its going to take them a second too back track by then you have the power nodes on 6% hp to black out the room and a few hydra's down.
if it is a late game res push. or a sync res strike. then you need to have drifters on stand by near node locations hidden. skulk ready to zip around fast and turn gorge. some energy on one of your hives for spare infestation. as well as spare res to recuperate. if its a res node push while they have you blocked in hive then you need to save as much res as you can have your players push out one side. prefer the enemy's weakest side aka longer for them to get too from there base. and then push back to a node not in spawn. cos if you keep building that spawn node they will keep killing it. hopefully this will disperse the enemy enough to get back on top. as both sides wax and wayne. if this is done right normally the fade can push out the weak side of your spawn zip around in behind the enemy's strong side while your pushing to build a node else were. and take out the enemy from behind. same rule applies with marines just different terms and change fade to shot gun. and gorge to flame thrower.
I think when things have finally smoothed out, and everyone can play a 'proper proper' game, you won't encounter the issue so much.
This makes it quiet easy to rush the res node nearest to the Aliens and mess up that node claim, reducing the Aliens to a 1 res node game.
... its about the same as if all the powernodes were offline by default , AND a link to a nearby technode was required to keep powernodes functional before Marines could put down the collector. Knocking out a link on the powernode chain would render the collector offline.
Marines would then need to send a MAC to repair all the nodes on route to the room the res node is in BEFORE they can drop the collector.
( link as in a chain of powered rooms leading to the techpoint ).
NOTE WELL ! I am not saying Marines should be forced to do what I described, its just a comparison ... this is basically what the Alien team has to do to get a remote res node.
A better solution would be to allow the Alien Harvestor to be dropped on Gorge placed DI and be able to sustain itself once grown, thus with some teamwork Aliens have ninja res nodes available.
This makes it quiet easy to rush the res node nearest to the Aliens and mess up that node claim, reducing the Aliens to a 1 res node game.
... its about the same as if all the powernodes were offline by default , AND a link to a nearby technode was required to keep powernodes functional before Marines could put down the collector. Knocking out a link on the powernode chain would render the collector offline.
Marines would then need to send a MAC to repair all the nodes on route to the room the res node is in BEFORE they can drop the collector.
( link as in a chain of powered rooms leading to the techpoint ).
NOTE WELL ! I am not saying Marines should be forced to do what I described, its just a comparison ... this is basically what the Alien team has to do to get a remote res node.
A better solution would be to allow the Alien Harvestor to be dropped on Gorge placed DI and be able to sustain itself once grown, thus with some teamwork Aliens have ninja res nodes available.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is exactly what I am trying to say. Thanks for pointing that out.
This pretty much sums up the issue right here. The solutions are
1. Do nothing, because this is a legitimate strategy
2. Make it harder to kill a harvester/extractor (e.g. lower damage against structures or higher health)
3. Make harvesters/extractors much cheaper
4. Make other defensive structure cheaper/more effective
5. Allow comms to drop one harvester/extractor for free when they have none
6. Make it so you automatically lose once all of your harvesters/extractors die
Personally, I'm partial to 5 and 6, but I think all of them except for 1 are viable.
I like this idea too. and I still think Flamethrowers are too overpowered. personally, I think they should do little to no damage to players, and up the damage to buildings/creep. and keep its stop agility regain, and maybe give it more fuel pur clip. probably be more viable after they add a few more marine weapons. but I always play skulk, so I'm a bit biased on that one.
I agree.
The Flamethrowers damage is really a joke. The only thing which makes it valuable is that you can use it like a "firesaber" and don't have to aim perfectly and also its crippling.
But without backup from a shotgun guy a flamethrower-marine will die if he encounters a Fade.
And I think its perfectly legitimate that a Tier2 weapon is superior against Tier1 aliens.
Halving the damage would make it take five. This is less than a full 'clip'. I think this is a decent balance.
However, rifle vs fade is seriously nerfed... It takes 50 full rounds (an entire 'clip') to kill a fade. But if you increased the damage, skulks would be screwed.
So from that, yeah, I agree, lower the fade's health/armour - but not by much. Just a bit. Possibly lower armour and health by 50 each. Then it would take 35 rifle rounds to kill a fade. Or 4 (3 and a half) halved-damage shotgun hits.
All of the above assuming Damage0.
With damage3, it currently takes: 39 rifle rounds to kill a fade; or 2 shotgun hits to kill a fade.
See what I mean about the rifle being underpowered and the shotgun being overpowered?
Halving the damage would make it take five. This is less than a full 'clip'. I think this is a decent balance.
However, rifle vs fade is seriously nerfed... It takes 50 full rounds (an entire 'clip') to kill a fade. But if you increased the damage, skulks would be screwed.
So from that, yeah, I agree, lower the fade's health/armour - but not by much. Just a bit. Possibly lower armour and health by 50 each. Then it would take 35 rifle rounds to kill a fade. Or 4 (3 and a half) halved-damage shotgun hits.
All of the above assuming Damage0.
With damage3, it currently takes: 39 rifle rounds to kill a fade; or 2 shotgun hits to kill a fade.
See what I mean about the rifle being underpowered and the shotgun being overpowered?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well said Hari,
I agree that the rifle is basically useless against the fade and shotgun is OP.
35 rifle rounds to kill a fade seems fine and 4 shotgun (Halved) shots seems fine. (This includes the lowered Fade health aswell)
This basically says that the Fade now needs to be hit with about a full clip (Because of the missing and stuff) and that you need to hit the fade about 5-6 times with the shotgun in order to kill (Because of the missing once again). This seems fine IMO.
Lowering the damage of the shotgun will make it fine against Fades and skulks (And the other ones) and also sturctures.
I like the damage upgrades for the marine weapons. The only problem is that commanders (on the Aliens) don't buy anything like Armour and Damage which is annoying... They don't even get Running leap for gods sake :/
And then people moan that the first 'mini-leap' is crap but have they actually had enough time with the running leap to see how good it is?
People are ignorant.
^
I am not starting an arguement about running leap I am just stating a fact.
An Alien Harvester has 2000 health + 250 armour = 2500 effective health
A Marine Extractors has 4800 health + 600 armour = 6000 effective health!
Although Skulks and Fades tear through through Extractors faster than Marines with Switch Axe (which the structures' health seem to be balanced around), the Shotgun's DPS may seem high, but it suffers from slower reloading speed. I believe the Rifle deals similar DPS to the Shotgun over time.
(Edit: Oops... I just tested in game. The shotgun does kill harvesters twice as fast as rifles, simply because a harvester only takes less than 2 clips, or 12.5 perfect shots from a Shotgun.)
-kills skulks instantly
-renders whips useless
-kills lerks almost as fast as skulks
-saps fade adren, keeps fade burning for another 10 secs after youve already left the room
-no cooldown
-functions like a sword
yep, ft sucks
The game is not fun when blowing up an extractor is more important than actually fighting the enemy right in front of you.
Resources in games are a means of progressing the game, the point of them is to encourage people to steadily escalate, changing the game over time so that a 30 minute match has a lot of different stuff happening, more different than if everything was just unlocked at once. It's a way of introducing variety.
Encouraging people to go around using resources as a way of gimping the other team and making sure nobody gets any progress made because they have to spend all their money on structures, that makes the game suck, that removes variety, that makes it <i>boring.</i>
Teams should never be short on res, they should always have enough to equip the team with good stuff and expand, tying res income to land ownership is simply a way of making land ownership important, because of course you want people to fight over the map. However when tying it to land ownership means teams are regularly without the resources to expand, upgrade, and use their different weapons, you have done something wrong, you need to decouple it from land ownership a bit so that teams will always have enough even with minimal land, OR you need to make it much easier to take and control enough land to provide the needed resources.
One or the other is neccesary, otherwise you have games where nobody controls very much, nobody is using very good equipment, and the game sort of flails around with crappy units until one team falls over sideways and it ends before it ever got off the ground.
Again, not fun.
I allways assumed that the DI would spread by itself based on buildings, not painted by a player.
The way it is now it's like the marines are trying to attack the aliens on their home turf, which just feels wrong (as the bacterium is either riding in piggy bag or secretly escapes/flourishes from/in isolated laboratories and spreads slowly before being spotted way to late - which makes a call to TSA necessary).
If aliens woud really evolve oh-so-fast and purge weaknesses or adapt to threads, they'd make it that their constructs grow infection on their own. Of course, with the background of nanomachine saturated surroundings it gets hard to describe how alien commanders are able to place buildings at all.
Guerilla tactics against a slow spreading enemy that can't evade or dilate from the frontlines (aka ninja-ing or black oping) are too effective.
That's why I think that gorges should function as beachheads again, being able to place a special structure other than RTs (that should spread DI, <u>too</u>) that is able to create isolated patches of infection and defend them against nannies.
-renders whips useless
-kills lerks almost as fast as skulks
-saps fade adren, keeps fade burning for another 10 secs after youve already left the room
-no cooldown
-functions like a sword
yep, ft sucks<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulk + Nightsight = Flamethrower
Enough said.
An Alien Harvester has 2000 health + 250 armour = 2500 effective health
A Marine Extractors has 4800 health + 600 armour = 6000 effective health!
Although Skulks and Fades tear through through Extractors faster than Marines with Switch Axe (which the structures' health seem to be balanced around), the Shotgun's DPS may seem high, but it suffers from slower reloading speed. I believe the Rifle deals similar DPS to the Shotgun over time.
(Edit: Oops... I just tested in game. The shotgun does kill harvesters twice as fast as rifles, simply because a harvester only takes less than 2 clips, or 12.5 perfect shots from a Shotgun.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It takes ~10 with level 3 damage, meaning you can easily fire 3 shots, reload to 8 again, and unload on it, killing it very fast.
Also, when your team's only res node dies, it doesn't mean the game is over. Had a game where the marines rushed our res early, so we decided to rush their IP and win.
Enough said.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fixed that for you ;)
So the game was over?
It doesn't matter who wins, the game is still an unsatisfying stillbirth.
I think that the vulnerability of alien nodes could be fixed by increasing the strength of static defences. Hydras (dare I say it after B150-B15[?]) seem too weak now and are not effective at deterring marines from entering an area. Strengthening them would allow a Gorge to move out in the early game, infest a node allowing the commander to cap it, and then nurse it with infestation and hydras until the commander can chain-infest the node, securing it more permanently.
This would give the Gorge a really crucial role, and contribute to asymmetry.
As for the strength of shotguns against... everything, I think the situation is not black and white. In my experience, a lerk can confidently engage marines with shotguns provided it has room to manouver. A skilled fade can kill a marine with a shotgun provided it does not attack it head on. A skulk with running-leap seems to have a 40-60 chance of killing a marine with a shotgun. A combination of flamethrower and shotgun is lethal against fades.
I guess what I am trying to say in this post, which is now far too long, is please be careful about just nerfing shotgun damage. There is a bigger picture. The gameplay imbalances shotguns create is complex, and may be solved through tweaks other than just damage nerfing.
I also agree with <b>NS2HD</b> that alien defenses are currently not very effective, and the Gorge's defensive role is quite weak right now.
I would suggest making Hydras larger, so marines cannot jump over them (and Gorges can use them as blockades). One or two Hydras would be able to provide some cover for smaller aliens against bullet based weapons. Read about my suggestions here: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=112900" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=112900</a>