Don't *nerf* the shot-gun
measles
Join Date: 2007-02-26 Member: 60122Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2007-02-26 Member: 60122Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Just kidding.. NERF IT!</div>Faceing off against SG is probably the most fun as a skulk. But, (and I don't know if it's a lag/beta issue) the spread of fire seems a little bit overwhelming.
Not to mention (but I will), the SG doesn't seem like something from the future..!
What..?
<b>~</b>No auto?
<b>~</b>How about a switch to go from concentrate to splatter?
The latter will give 'more valuable' players to really bring it home on offence, where as 'new recruits' can more confidently stand their ground.
Not to mention (but I will), the SG doesn't seem like something from the future..!
What..?
<b>~</b>No auto?
<b>~</b>How about a switch to go from concentrate to splatter?
The latter will give 'more valuable' players to really bring it home on offence, where as 'new recruits' can more confidently stand their ground.
Comments
Or rather because it lives largely client-side (I believe a SG-hit client-side is a SG-hit server-side), and thus isn't affected as much by lag\warping\crummy server-prediction\interpolation.
Currently the Shotgun does 200 max damage (Point blank shot) which I think is a little bit too much.
The shotgun fires 10 pellets(I think) and each of them pellets do 20 damage.
I would like the Shotgun to have 150 max damage and fire 10 pellets (15 damage per pellet). Currently the shotgun does a little bit too much damage and can easily kill skulks standing about 5 metres away with 1 shot.
Harimau also thinks that the shotgun should be nerfed (I think)
<b>
In conclusion,</b>
Shotgun damage should be decreased from 20 damage per pellet to 15 damage per pellet. This means that the shotgun does 150 max damage in total and also makes it slightly less effective against structures. It still means that you can 1 hit stupid skulks that run towards you but it also means that you can't 1v1 kill a fade (Because fade is very slow and his first attack doesn't hit properly).
The shotgun can easily 1 hit kill a skulk that is biting you legs with ease. All you need is about half of the pellets (5 pellets) to hit the skulk and he is dead. This means that you don't even have to have the aimer on him to get a 1 hit kill (Noob friendly). This means that the Shotgun is effective against Tier 2 skulks as skulks and other aliens are slow.
If the damage was decreased from 200 max damage to 150 max damage then that would be it would require 4 direct shotgun shots to kill a fade (If you miss a few of the pellets it will require something like 6-8 shots to kill one of them) The shotgun can kill a Lerk with 1 shot as well which is unfair as the maps have small rooms (Tram Alien Start is different) meaning that the shotgun is effective against the lerk. If the max damage was 150 it would be that it would require 1-2 shots from the shotgun in order to kill it. The shotgun would still be effective against skulks if it had a damage nerf as it would still be abled to 1 hit kill skulks. Around 7 pellets will have to hit the skulk in order to kill and if you have your aimer on its face in close range it wouldn't be too hard to kill one.
I disagree that all the aliens should do is wait and ambush all of the time. When we have the Onos then the aliens will have to attack with their Onos friend. If the Aliens were ambushers and only the Onos is an offensive creature then the lower class aliens will not have that much of an effect. The running leap is effective against shotgunners (When I use running leap I can easily kill a solo shotgunner) but if you leap towards him he can easily kill you. This means that you cannot to Leap + Bites anymore like we did in NS1. I am practising leaping towards them and then biting mid-air whilst flying past their face but you can not do this when it is a shotgunner. The shotgun is effective against all of the Alien Classes and also effective against the structures. The gorge needs to also have some kind of Hook upgrade so he can get to high places and place Tatical Hydras.
This is my thoughts on the Shotgun.
Running leap is only available after a Hive Mass, so that pretty much forces aliens on a fixed strategy (2nd Hive - > Hive Mass -> Whip -> Running Leap) to counter a SG (which appear VERY early right now). Being forced into a single upgrade-path doesn't bode well for a game that wants to bear the RTS-label. It must be possible to complete a game without having any one particular upgrade.
This.
Fighting against a Shotgunner is frustrating but a Shotgun is a very strong weapon in close combat.
However there is one problem I see.
A skulk need at least 1 minute to bring down a restower.. plenty of time for the marineteam to send units and kill the skulk.
A Marine with an ax might also need at least one minute to bring down a harvester, means that is sort of balanced.
BUT
A marine with a Shotgun just need 12 shells to bring down a harvester and that is way to fast.
Aliens don't have the chance to counter a marine running around with a shotgun and killing harvesters.
For instance, I was alien commander and a marine came to the mainhive on tram and started shooting the RT.
I got out of the Hive and charged at him but he killed me.
The time it took me to respawn (at the same hive) was enough for him to finish off the RT.
And that is just imbalanced.
Also it makes the GL useless. (A shotgun doing more damage then a grenade? I mean.. come on.....)
<u><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->So please nerf the structure damage of the shotgun!<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></u>
Edit:
I also like papayas idea to nerf the player damage as he described.
For me it is okay if a shotgun is able to kill a skulk in one hit...
The shotgun right now has the role of making the other weapons pointless essentially. They'll get around to it later.. but its OK for now in this beta version
-Structures need more life in my opinion, i feel like they are balanced for really small player games right now. But even with that said, on the low side of health.
Having more marines having shotguns + shotguns being more powerful = a problem that wasn't present in NS1. The shotgun now only requires one upgrade which is very fast to research. One marine with a shotgun will easily tear apart nearly any amount of skulks unless they completely overwhelm the marine, which doesn't often happen considering the relatively low amount of players in any given game. The spread is also so high and considering that only 4/10 of the pellets need to hit the skulk in order to kill a skulk, there is a huge tolerance for error, meaning you don't even need to be completely aiming at the skulk to easily kill it. The shotgun also by far does the most damage to alien structures, that it only takes a few shells to kill harvesters, crags, and even whips aren't too hard to take down.
The shotgun needs to have a smaller cone of fire, needs to have it's damage lowered back down to its damage in NS1, (17 damage per pellet, 10 pellets) and also have a damage multiplier such as .75 or .5 that makes the shotgun no longer the anti-everything besides infestation weapon, because as it is right now, is more effective at taking down fades, skulks, and all alien structures faster than even the flame thrower.
Having more marines having shotguns + shotguns being more powerful = a problem that wasn't present in NS1. The shotgun now only requires one upgrade which is very fast to research. One marine with a shotgun will easily tear apart nearly any amount of skulks unless they completely overwhelm the marine, which doesn't often happen considering the relatively low amount of players in any given game. The spread is also so high and considering that only 4/10 of the pellets need to hit the skulk in order to kill a skulk, there is a huge tolerance for error, meaning you don't even need to be completely aiming at the skulk to easily kill it. The shotgun also by far does the most damage to alien structures, that it only takes a few shells to kill harvesters, crags, and even whips aren't too hard to take down.
The shotgun needs to have a smaller cone of fire, needs to have it's damage lowered back down to its damage in NS1, (17 damage per pellet, 10 pellets) and also have a damage multiplier such as .75 or .5 that makes the shotgun no longer the anti-everything besides infestation weapon, because as it is right now, is more effective at taking down fades, skulks, and all alien structures faster than even the flame thrower.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also feel that the strategic aspect of NS2 has been thrown off balance by the Shotgun. There is almost no need to choose other weapons ATM.
I once lost 60 HP as a Skulk from a shotgun shot while standing about 15 units away, that was quite unlucky of me. Looking at the lua code, the Shotgun deals up to 140 damage even at max range (though it is unlikely to hit due to the huge spread). It will need its ranged-based damage dropoff tweaked as well.
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But, wouldn't it be rad if there was a switch on the weopon that would alter the weopons spread of fire for a more ranged & precise attack?
The shotgun might prove to be overpowered once the game gets better framerates, as actually hitting the enemies you want to hit, without having low fps causing you to overaim, well, lets just say there will be 8 dead skulks in 8 seconds if I had a good framerate.
I also don't think alien armor does anything. skulks with armor 3 die just as fast as they would be in armor 1, maybe VERY slight difference.
Why does it need to be nerfed:
I was a marine and I had a shotgun. I was hacking away at the Resource node at Alien Start (Tram, btw). There was a fade inside the Hive and he came out. I got out my shotgun and I shot at the fade. 3 shots killed that fade and he only managed to get 1 hit on me. I then carried on hacking away at the Resource Node but a skulk came and killed me before I killed it.
After I killed the Fade I said something like "See, the shotgun is really OP" and he agreed with me and so did a few other people.
Basically, what I am saying is that <b>I managed to beat a Fade <!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->1 vs 1<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> with a shotgun.</b> and I was stationary.
I think that if I can manage to do that and I am normally an Alien player then the Shotgun must be really OP.
Please read this UWE and realise that the Shotgun is OP.
P.S I would have hated to be that fade.
Why does it need to be nerfed:
I was a marine and I had a shotgun. I was hacking away at the Resource node at Alien Start (Tram, btw). There was a fade inside the Hive and he came out. I got out my shotgun and I shot at the fade. 3 shots killed that fade and he only managed to get 1 hit on me. I then carried on hacking away at the Resource Node but a skulk came and killed me before I killed it.
After I killed the Fade I said something like "See, the shotgun is really OP" and he agreed with me and so did a few other people.
Basically, what I am saying is that <b>I managed to beat a Fade <!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->1 vs 1<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> with a shotgun.</b> and <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->I was stationary.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I think that if I can manage to do that and I am normally an Alien player then the Shotgun must be really OP.
Please read this UWE and realise that the Shotgun is OP.
P.S I would have hated to be that fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gotta love the twist there. Hollywood script FTW!
I'd say it was probably a combination of a bad Fade and lag.
Fade (Blink & weapons) do need some serious work tho.
Doubt it. 200 max damage? Ludicrous.
<u>Havesters should have more HP, why?</u>
Currently the Extractor (Marine) have 6000 hp and 250 armour. Totalling in that the Extractor has 6500 hp.
The Havester (Alien) has 2000 hp and 250 armour. Totalling in that the Havester has 2500 hp.
Right there, that is a balance problem that can be easily fixed just by putting the health up/down of the structure.
<u>The shotgun damage should be nerfed, why?</u>
Currently the shotgun does 200 damage if all of the shots hit. The shotgun fires 10 pellets; each of these do 20 damage each, double what 1 rfile bullet does. The shotgun is a max damage from 8 shots of dealing 1600 damage. The rifle does 500 damage with 1 clip.
If the shotgun damage was nerfed to 150 max damage if all of the shots hit then each pellet would do 15 damage. That means 8 shotgun shots would do 1200 damage. You would still be abled to 1 hit a skulk but you won't be abled to easily take on a fade 1 vs 1.
few things can happen:
1.buffing the alien structures
2.reducing shotgun damage
3. buffing alien armor (absorb damage better)
4.increasing alien damage
some basic ideas what can be done about the problems. I personally like 1 and 2.
Alien RTs are just too weak.
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<!--quoteo(post=1837617:date=Mar 17 2011, 08:22 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Mar 17 2011, 08:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1837617"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2.reducing shotgun damage<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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A good method to achieve this would be to apply a buff to all structures. The buff reduces the damage structures take by a percent based on the team size of the opposite team. I use the constant K=6 as an example, which can be tweaked. For example, in a game with 12 marines vs 10 aliens, alien structures would take K/12 = 50% damage from marine weapons, while marines structures would take K/10 = 60% damage from alien attacks.
<u>Havesters should have more HP, why?</u>
Currently the Extractor (Marine) have 6000 hp and 250 armour. Totalling in that the Extractor has 6500 hp.
The Havester (Alien) has 2000 hp and 250 armour. Totalling in that the Havester has 2500 hp.
Right there, that is a balance problem that can be easily fixed just by putting the health up/down of the structure.
<u>The shotgun damage should be nerfed, why?</u>
Currently the shotgun does 200 damage if all of the shots hit. The shotgun fires 10 pellets; each of these do 20 damage each, double what 1 rfile bullet does. The shotgun is a max damage from 8 shots of dealing 1600 damage. The rifle does 500 damage with 1 clip.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Currently the Extractor (Marine) have 6000 hp and 250 armour. Totalling in that the Extractor has 6500 hp. <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->It is made of METAL<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The Havester (Alien) has 2000 hp and 250 armour. Totalling in that the Havester has 2500 hp. <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->it is made of FLESH<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The Havester (Alien) has 2000 hp and 250 armour. Totalling in that the Havester has 2500 hp. <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->it is made of FLESH<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and this game is made of many <b>pixels </b>, enough with this realism. the problem is pretty obvious.
The Havester (Alien) has 2000 hp and 250 armour. Totalling in that the Havester has 2500 hp. <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->it is made of FLESH<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well according to that stupid logic, all alien creatures should die in one or two hits as well. Cause herp derp they're also made of flesh. Why even bother having a game at all then.
If it's so obvious, how come I don't see it?
harvesters autoheal.. Gorges can heal them and so can crag. Skulks are very expendable (as opposed to a marine being 'possibly expendable') and do not require functioning power node for use.
<!--quoteo(post=1838246:date=Mar 22 2011, 07:43 AM:name=danshyu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (danshyu @ Mar 22 2011, 07:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838246"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well according to that stupid logic, all alien creatures should die in one or two hits as well. Cause herp derp they're also made of flesh. Why even bother having a game at all then.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not a game, it's a simulator.
(make a 'stupid' statement get a stupid reply)
The balancing key factor then is <u>not damage/health</u>, it is <b>dps/time</b>.
The game must needs be balanced around player vs player interaction first.
Then you can take a (weighted) average dps for either team*. Set an expected 'time' taken to bring down a structure. Thus you can determine the health of that structure.
I can't remember what dps harvesters/extractors are currently balanced with, it might be skulk bite vs marine axe.
* This is obviously impossible to balance perfectly, because what weapon/ability is used against a structure may be incredibly random. Of course, you can say that some weapons/abilities will likely be used more often than others (hence the <b>weighted</b> average), but overall the factors that affect what weapon/ability is used are many: the player, the stage of the game, the technology/resources available, and simply the situation itself.
One solution to this problem is to simply have weapons/abilities have anti-player damage and anti-structure damage. It's simple, but it's kind of a brute-force method. Specifically anti-structure-role weapons/abilities will have higher anti-structure damage than standard weapons/abilities which will have similar (to each other), lower anti-structure damage for easy balancing.
The balancing key factor then is <u>not damage/health</u>, it is <b>dps/time</b>.
One solution to this problem is to simply have weapons/abilities have anti-player damage and anti-structure damage. It's simple, but it's kind of a brute-force method. Specifically anti-structure-role weapons/abilities will have higher anti-structure damage than standard weapons/abilities which will have similar (to each other), lower anti-structure damage for easy balancing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Damage per second/time is redundant (Sorry, couldn't resist :P)
It seems like what you're suggesting is that we need Armor/Damage types, which I thought we already did.
Or did you know that already?
It's not really Armor<b>[or]</b>Damage types. (!)
What I'm proposing is the following:
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->If target = player
deal x damage
elseif target = structure
deal y damage
end<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
and the idea is that, for any <b>standard</b> weapon: rifle, shotgun, axe; the dps <b>against structures</b> (y) is the same (or very very similar). This makes it very easy to balance. Same for the alien side: skulk bite, lerk spikes, fade slash, etc.