I don't think the devs are saying it is not going to be fast, I think they are just saying it won't be as fast NS1. Mainly because it will not have things such as a Fade with (essentially) a freelook blink mode, and an unmentionable movement skill that continues to divide a community.
We still have to wait for all the chambers, upgrades, and improvements that will take this game to the next step.
We are still yet to see a Skulk with upgraded leap, celerity and energy regen.
<!--quoteo(post=1837223:date=Mar 15 2011, 11:51 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Mar 15 2011, 11:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1837223"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fortunatly nothing stands in our way to make the necessary Lua-modifications on our own accord, call it a pro-mod and have it for the competitive-scene.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not sure if NS2 community will be big enough to sustain a promod. I'd definitely like to see one in case NS2 gameplay on its own isn't enough, but I can't say I'd feel awfully confident about its success at this point. Hopefully I'm just worrying too much though, wouldn't be the first time.
I hate it when I play these modern FPS'es like CoD and you can't jump for crap. Q3 is great example of movement-system based game.
I call this the "modern game phenomenon". It isn't just NS2, its every game on market, its like reverse evolution. Games become more "accessible" and lose all the competitive appeal. Take Super Smash Bros for example. In Brawl they removed wave dashing, L-cancelling and made the game much more slower etc. <i>Prima facie</i> those games look the same, but experienced players know SSBM has much more depth. Its much faster and has all these crazy interframe abilities. This is why they are promodding Brawl but its not that popular. The difference is though much bigger in NS, SSBM-SSBB difference is something like TFC and TF2.
slowing the game down to make it more accessible to new players is the wrong move (IMO). This will simply alienate the bulk of the ns1 players whilst not guaranteeing that ns2 will become a success with new players.
You need to please your guaranteed player base by replicating the feel and complexity of ns1 and then spend time trying to work out a more successful way of introducing this style of play to new players (maybe user created and officially endorsed you-tube vids that quickly explain typical build orders / movement features (Bhop) etc which can be launched in the steam overlay window when an in game suggestion appears). This way you will retain your current player base whilst having the best chance of gaining new players.
At the moment you are running the risk of having a hit or miss style of game that may or may not be picked up by mainstream gamers remembering that you are competing against huge games with massive budgets.
personally I don't want an ns1 replication with better graphics, but I do want all the new features (DI, area control gameplay etc), with the old ns1 feel, speed and skill that was required to skirmish and I believe that this feel and speed is NS's biggest feature against all the other games in the market.
I like the "slower" play of NS2. It feels more like a modern game (Not necessarily a bad thing) and it also makes me FEEL like a gear toting space marine. Skulks should have a speed increase, however.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1838002:date=Mar 20 2011, 03:36 AM:name=Clutch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clutch @ Mar 20 2011, 03:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838002"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the "slower" play of NS2. It feels more like a modern game (Not necessarily a bad thing) and it also makes me FEEL like a gear toting space marine. Skulks should have a speed increase, however.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe implement drafting so a skulk can catch up with a sprinting marine. :V
<!--quoteo(post=1838004:date=Mar 20 2011, 03:53 AM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Mar 20 2011, 03:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838004"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe implement drafting so a skulk can catch up with a sprinting marine. :V<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> NASKULK!
<!--quoteo(post=1837131:date=Mar 14 2011, 03:59 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Mar 14 2011, 03:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1837131"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know if it will ever be as "fast" as NS1 (that was a pretty different era and FPS games have changed a lot)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why, when other FPS games slow their pace down and they all play/look/feel the same, wouldn't UWE want to differentiate NS2 by attempting the same fast paced gameplay that made NS1 so popular?
There is a difference between NS2 and other shooters in its current state.
Firstly, it is not slow. It is probably one of the fastest shooters out there at the moment, so I'm not sure where people are going with this.
Secondly as has been mentioned by the devs, things will get smoother and faster with optimisation.
Also, all the chamber upgrades are yet to be introduced. The current Lerk can go at some speed if you know how to fly it, so when celerity and the like is introduced things will get even faster again.
You can only go so fast before this game becomes a Quake3/UT esq shooter, and at that point you loose strategic and tactical qualities of the RTS element. As I have stated before however, this is to do with speed, distance and time. They are all relative when it comes to balancing thinking time, and just shooting at everything that moves.
We are not going to see a Superman Fade because it was unbalanced and looked ridiculous, we are not going to see a certain movement skill that required stupid scripts and was hard to balance.
What we are going to see (I imagine) is a compromise that, as UWE have stated, will make this a competitive game that also allows for a casual scene. You can only make so much money if you turn this into some super hardcore game that a limited few will still play.
Could UWE make enough money selling a game to the hardcore that still play NS1? No.
A lot of people on here make bold statements. I'm not game designer, but I do design and have played games for long enough to have an understanding of what makes something successful - and not based upon personal desires, wishes or tastes.
A slow/fast game does not necessarily make something more elitist.
What makes a game elitist is a severely large learning curve combined with a highly complex system.
The most successful games will have a highly complex system, but which is easy to learn. Or playability value that goes beyond your first few hours/days - hopefully to months and years. Taking a casual gamer from 'interested and enjoys playing games' to 'I play every day'.
I would think that for many on here there is probably one game that peaked these interests in gaming. It could have been NS1, HL, CS.
But all too often I see people frightened off from their purchase of NS2 on servers, not everyone in the market or experience of the gaming market has the time or wants to play for hours.
Frequently there are people on servers whos first time experience, perhaps just because of a bad server, is "this is rubbish, so laggy". Or they haven't the foggiest of how to play the game.
This is a game that has to please a majority, not a minority. To be inclusive, not exclusive. NS2 will probably sit somewhere between the majority of the casual gamer and perhaps closer to the minority of hardcore.
NS2 should be fast, but not too fast. Because who wants to start playing any game the first time round where their first experiences are being instantly and repeatedly killed by some blur with claws. It's just not fun.
<!--quoteo(post=1838007:date=Mar 20 2011, 12:28 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Mar 20 2011, 12:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838007"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We are not going to see a Superman Fade because it was unbalanced and looked ridiculous, we are not going to see a certain movement skill that required stupid scripts and was hard to balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd say the present fade is potentially way harder to balance than the old blinker. Teleporting means even smaller time windows where it can be hit, which makes it very inconsistent and snap intense unless some notable blink cooldowns are introduced.
The movement system script dependency is very easy to fix and after that I'd say it more helped NS1 alien play to scale in skill levels rather than unbalancing it. If anything, the low level aliens were still slightly overpowered despite having a very challenging movement system to learn.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A lot of people on here make bold statements. I'm not game designer, but I do design and have played games for long enough to have an understanding of what makes something successful - and not based upon personal desires, wishes or tastes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> While I do agree that UWE needs to cope with the target audience and financial business, it's very debatable what options they have for doing it. At least I have very little reason to support an indie game if it doesn't offer any extra value compared to a mainstream one.
I think the UWE folks were already quite surprised on the amount of preorders they got in the first place. That might be some indication of how much NS style gameplay is missed and how much market such gameplay actually has. Whether it's enough to sustain a company like UWE is debatable of course.
Also, I don't think NS2 has any need to be as hardcore as NS1. NS1 was unnecessarily inaccessible in many ways. 3.2 is quite a lot more accessible than the vast majority of the versions that built NS' playerbase and even 3.2 has a plenty of huge issues that could be easily fixed now that they've got the option to redesign whatever they want. For example timing friendly jump, improved waypoint system, better keymapping and movement tutorial would already make a world of difference for the gaming experience of your average pubber. That's all without even thinking any actual gameplay design.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 should be fast, but not too fast. Because who wants to start playing any game the first time round where their first experiences are being instantly and repeatedly killed by some blur with claws. It just is not fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The alien skill based movement (which you called difficult to balance) ensured that a newbie vs newbie game stays at manageable speeds while the advanced players can still play at higher speeds and challenges.
I don't think teleporting fades, sniper lerks and early game leapskulks are much of an improvement to that section anyway. While they've brought down the speed that can be achieved through skill, the newbie vs newbie match is probably going to be at least equally chaotic. In addition, things like leap and blink are very binary right now. You can't for example do a careful blink, it's all or nothing right away. Good luck controlling that without previous NS experience and thorough map knowledge.
<!--quoteo(post=1837252:date=Mar 15 2011, 06:45 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Mar 15 2011, 06:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1837252"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure if NS2 community will be big enough to sustain a promod. I'd definitely like to see one in case NS2 gameplay on its own isn't enough, but I can't say I'd feel awfully confident about its success at this point. Hopefully I'm just worrying too much though, wouldn't be the first time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I wasn't necessarily talking about a fully-fledged downloadable mod (although when Server-Client Lua-synchronization becomes possible, this will be a snap), but more like some careful tinkering server-side. I'm still having a look at what exactly the posibilities are when operating strictly from the Server-VM, but something like increasing the field-of-view (in reference to earlier posts) should be easely do-able. You could also think about increasing the skulk's running-speed. I could have these features piggyback on the admin-mod, and have them optional for server-operators to use at their discretion.
*takes shelter from the community-dividing argument-bombardment*
Its ridiculous how many threads/posts in this forum start with.... "I Realize its a beta but..."
And from then on they think whatever they say is justified. Horrible comparisons and logic trains are made from then on which are generally, only considerably/arguably true IF the game was in fact complete.... but still(repetition for emphasis) just arguably.
<!--quoteo(post=1838010:date=Mar 20 2011, 01:32 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Mar 20 2011, 01:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838010"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wasn't necessarily talking about a fully-fledged downloadable mod (although when Server-Client Lua-synchronization becomes possible, this will be a snap), but more like some careful tinkering server-side. I'm still having a look at what exactly the posibilities are when operating strictly from the Server-VM, but something like increasing the field-of-view (in reference to earlier posts) should be easely do-able. You could also think about increasing the skulk's running-speed. I could have these features piggyback on the admin-mod, and have them optional for server-operators to use at their discretion.
*takes shelter from the community-dividing argument-bombardment*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, there are quite a lot of possibilities and I absolutely don't want to overrule any possibility at this point. Whatever ends up working is fine by me.
A lot depends on what modification is needed, how it can be accomplished and how the server browsing and filtering actually works. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
<!--quoteo(post=1837131:date=Mar 15 2011, 05:59 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Mar 15 2011, 05:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1837131"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good discussion guys. Yes it is beta and totally unfinished of course but yes we do want your feedback too.
I think the currently sluggishness is due to a few things, including unoptimized graphics, networking and input. We also started over from scratch with the movement code (since it's not based on Half-life) so we probably need to make some changes there to make it feel more responsive.
I don't know if it will ever be as "fast" as NS1 (that was a pretty different era and FPS games have changed a lot) but we will get it feeling much more responsive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you, Charlie!! It is so <b>awesome</b> what UWE are doing. I personally hope that the team NEVER strays from the heart of the true idea of what Natural Selection is about!!
<!--quoteo(post=1838001:date=Mar 20 2011, 05:30 PM:name=Narcil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Narcil @ Mar 20 2011, 05:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838001"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You <u>need</u> to please your guaranteed player base by replicating the feel and complexity of ns1 and then spend time trying to work out a more successful way of introducing this style of play to new players (maybe user created and officially endorsed you-tube vids that quickly explain typical build orders / movement features (Bhop) etc which can be launched in the steam overlay window when an in game suggestion appears). This way you will retain your current player base whilst having the best chance of gaining new players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How ######en dare you Narcil?!
Just because you can't get your teenie brain around the REAL concept of Natural Selection', you think you can ######en order Flayra to make adjustments to the game? No doubt, you're just another one of these 'rine '###### mofo's that think they're ######en RAMBO, and when your one hit wonder moves fail you blame the game.. LAME dude. You're just LAME
<!--quoteo(post=1838013:date=Mar 20 2011, 03:58 PM:name=measles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (measles @ Mar 20 2011, 03:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[...] How ######en dare you Narcil?!
Just because you can't get your teenie brain around the REAL concept of Natural Selection', you think you can ######en order Flayra to make adjustments to the game? No doubt, you're just another one of these 'rine '###### mofo's that think they're ######en RAMBO, and when your one hit wonder moves fail you blame the game.. LAME dude. You're just LAME<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1838020:date=Mar 21 2011, 12:25 AM:name=lazy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lazy @ Mar 21 2011, 12:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838020"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->u mad?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, why would I be? I spent all day pwning this guy. =P
The Fade Blink has already been balanced very well. It takes a huge energy draw to blink into an attack, and furthermore, attacking draws energy.
So unless you hit your target, then blink out again quickly and repeat you can find yourself in trouble very quickly, especially as flamethrowers reduce energy regeneration.
The sound is also very recognisable and instantly pre-warns everyone.
A Shotgun can take a fade down in 3 hits.
But if you play it right, it can be very effective.
<!--quoteo(post=1838013:date=Mar 20 2011, 09:58 AM:name=measles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (measles @ Mar 20 2011, 09:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just because you can't get your teenie brain around the REAL concept of Natural Selection', you think you can ######en order Flayra to make adjustments to the game? No doubt, you're just another one of these 'rine '###### mofo's that think they're ######en RAMBO, and when your one hit wonder moves fail you blame the game.. LAME dude. You're just LAME<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People like you are frustrating. If someone says they want fast gameplay they're immediately a rambo, script user, or a [insert any other derogatory term]. I see you like to use 'teenie brain.'
Before NS1 was made there was nothing quite like it. Even 8 years after NS1 was made there's nothing quite like it. It's unique. The fast, tense, wild, and sometimes chaotic pace of the game is a major contributing factor to why NS1 is so special.
I'm not a game developer and I don't follow player trends, but if I made one of the most successful mods of any game I wouldn't want to mess with the formula too much when making the sequel.
No one is saying make it UT2K4 or Quake and I don't think many players would mind if the pace was slowed down a <i>little.</i> That said, the OP is 100% correct. NS2 is slow and the 'feel' is not quite right.
Just so you know, if you were to ask me if I were for or against bunnyhop, and I could only choose one or the other, I would say: against. But the fast and frenetic semi-realistic gameplay is what made NS what it is.
I agree, the fast game play of NS1 was very exciting and was part of what made up the game. How could you not in a world of Aliens and Marines?
But as far as things like Bunny Hopping go, or Fades flying round like someone who has activated no clip mode in the HL engine. No.
Fast is fine, fast that consists of elitist scripting and the minority of a very hardcore community is not. Especially from a small team working on a small budget, and seemingly are sacrificing their own health to get this game to us.
I'd want to have some money so I could have a darn good holiday or life outside of NS if I was working 12+ hours a day, sometimes on weekends.
<!--quoteo(post=1838013:date=Mar 20 2011, 09:58 AM:name=measles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (measles @ Mar 20 2011, 09:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How ######en dare you Narcil?!
Just because you can't get your teenie brain around the REAL concept of Natural Selection', you think you can ######en order Flayra to make adjustments to the game? No doubt, you're just another one of these 'rine '###### mofo's that think they're ######en RAMBO, and when your one hit wonder moves fail you blame the game.. LAME dude. You're just LAME<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Bashing someone else for stating their opinion, no matter how much you may believe or know is incorrect does nothing to make you any better than him. The exact opposite, in fact, it makes you look childish and ignorant. I don't even necessarily agree with Narcil, but that doesn't grant me the depth of understanding of who Narcil is that I would require to objectively judge and criticize him as you have. If you can't be constructive, at least be civil. If you can't be civil, please be so elsewhere.
<!--quoteo(post=1838037:date=Mar 20 2011, 06:04 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Mar 20 2011, 06:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838037"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just so you know, if you were to ask me if I were for or against bunnyhop, and I could only choose one or the other, I would say: against.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Absolutely don't pick one. What these forums lack is exactly people able to discuss features as something more diverse than a simple yes/no or good/bad thingy. There's no such thing as a perfect system and there are very few systems that have absolutely no use or nothing to learn about. And HL movement system (including bhop) is huge, complicated system with a plenty of positives and negatives, no way it can be simplified into a yes or no question.
Also, if something seems valuable but has too many downsides it's a good idea to see whether the negatives can be eliminated or diminished. For example a quake styled jump timing solves the scripting issue from NS1 already, that's already taking the original concept into a better direction. Is it enough? That's all very much debatable.
To those guys saying NS2 shouldn't be fast because then noone except the hardcore community would want to play it:
NS1's audience was HUGE back in it's prime. For a few years there were so many clans from just my own country that I practically never had to play international teams. And there were even more pub players. Over the years new games came out and people moved on, but there are still a few servers and clans up after all this time.
Of course, NS1 was fast, complex and not very noob-friendly. For example, to learn movement tricks you often had to ask other players or search the internet for tutorials. If these things were taught ingame the game wouldn't be so unintuitive. I would very much prefer this approach over simply slowing movement and removing momentum etc.
<!--quoteo(post=1838055:date=Mar 21 2011, 06:02 AM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Mar 21 2011, 06:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838055"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bashing someone else for stating their opinion, no matter how much you may believe or know is incorrect does nothing to make you any better than him. The exact opposite, in fact, it makes you look childish and ignorant. I don't even necessarily agree with Narcil, but that doesn't grant me the depth of understanding of who Narcil is that I would require to objectively judge and criticize him as you have. If you can't be constructive, at least be civil. If you can't be civil, please be so elsewhere.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
FYI, I was being constructive. Narcil was just being rude.. Unnacceptable, when the intended recipient is Flayra, wouldn't you agree?
<!--quoteo(post=1838013:date=Mar 20 2011, 11:58 PM:name=measles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (measles @ Mar 20 2011, 11:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thank you, Charlie!! It is so <b>awesome</b> what UWE are doing. I personally hope that the team NEVER strays from the heart of the true idea of what Natural Selection is about!!
How ######en dare you Narcil?!
Just because you can't get your teenie brain around the REAL concept of Natural Selection', you think you can ######en order Flayra to make adjustments to the game? No doubt, you're just another one of these 'rine '###### mofo's that think they're ######en RAMBO, and when your one hit wonder moves fail you blame the game.. LAME dude. You're just LAME<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=measles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (measles)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->FYI, I was being constructive. Narcil was just being rude.. Unnacceptable, when the intended recipient is Flayra, wouldn't you agree?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am free to put my opinion forward, and it was simply that, my opinion. If you took the time to read the post instead of taking one section out of context then you would have seen that. Also I don't see anywhere in my post where I am attacking or being rude to Flayra. Just because I think the game should be heading closer in one direction doesn't mean that I think Flayra is wrong, I am just providing an alternate opinion. which I know as a designer myself is helpful and constructive.
You however need to take a look at yourself, your comments just look like you are brown-nosing with the devs.
I don't see how you can accuse me of having a "teenie" brain, when you make comments like this. Just so you know I'm not some teenager sitting in my dark bedroom commenting on obscure games, I happen to be quite a highly qualified engineer that works a full week and then likes to relax with some games during my occasional free time.
Anyway apart from that, I still think that the best way for ns2 to be successful is the make the game feel more like ns1 in order to break the mould of the current Gen games.
<!--quoteo(post=1838178:date=Mar 21 2011, 07:56 PM:name=Narcil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Narcil @ Mar 21 2011, 07:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838178"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am free to put my opinion forward, and it was simply that, my opinion. If you took the time to read the post instead of taking one section out of context then you would have seen that. Also I don't see anywhere in my post where I am attacking or being rude to Flayra. Just because I think the game should be heading closer in one direction doesn't mean that I think Flayra is wrong, I am just providing an alternate opinion. which I know as a designer myself is helpful and constructive.
You however need to take a look at yourself, your comments just look like you are brown-nosing with the devs.
I don't see how you can accuse me of having a "teenie" brain, when you make comments like this. Just so you know I'm not some teenager sitting in my dark bedroom commenting on obscure games, I happen to be quite a highly qualified engineer that works a full week and then likes to relax with some games during my occasional free time.
Anyway apart from that, I still think that the best way for ns2 to be successful is the make the game feel more like ns1 in order to break the mould of the current Gen games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I apoligise;
I know you're a good player, but as you you can see from some of the other posts even, you do not seem to be 'getting to grips' of what the 'natural selection' realm is really about! Please, give credit, were credit is due. We all <u>need</u> to CONTINUE to be patient.. When this game is finally released it will get better ratings then HL2 did, and we can all stand proud that we were there, behind the devs from day ###### 1!
Personally I'd have to see how fast NS2 becomes when its fully optimised as its difficult, for me at least, to distinguish between the two. I'm by no means a veteran of NS and no great shakes at shooters but the real pull for me was NS's teamplay, not its speed. Naturally I became frustrated at times when the speed proved to be my downfall, not being able to use the skulk to its full potential or conversely not being able to hit anything but the broadside of an onos.
I still enjoyed every minute of it, the game speed was simply a learning curve, something lacking in todays "Hide behind cover" games. Seemingly replaced by the hideous "unlocks" system that validates nothing and is creeping into every shooter like DI on a res node. As long as that teamplay aspect remains paramount, NS2 will still be popular, as for the speed aspect, lets see what the future brings eh.
Comments
We still have to wait for all the chambers, upgrades, and improvements that will take this game to the next step.
We are still yet to see a Skulk with upgraded leap, celerity and energy regen.
I'm not sure if NS2 community will be big enough to sustain a promod. I'd definitely like to see one in case NS2 gameplay on its own isn't enough, but I can't say I'd feel awfully confident about its success at this point. Hopefully I'm just worrying too much though, wouldn't be the first time.
I call this the "modern game phenomenon". It isn't just NS2, its every game on market, its like reverse evolution. Games become more "accessible" and lose all the competitive appeal. Take Super Smash Bros for example. In Brawl they removed wave dashing, L-cancelling and made the game much more slower etc. <i>Prima facie</i> those games look the same, but experienced players know SSBM has much more depth. Its much faster and has all these crazy interframe abilities. This is why they are promodding Brawl but its not that popular. The difference is though much bigger in NS, SSBM-SSBB difference is something like TFC and TF2.
You need to please your guaranteed player base by replicating the feel and complexity of ns1 and then spend time trying to work out a more successful way of introducing this style of play to new players (maybe user created and officially endorsed you-tube vids that quickly explain typical build orders / movement features (Bhop) etc which can be launched in the steam overlay window when an in game suggestion appears). This way you will retain your current player base whilst having the best chance of gaining new players.
At the moment you are running the risk of having a hit or miss style of game that may or may not be picked up by mainstream gamers remembering that you are competing against huge games with massive budgets.
personally I don't want an ns1 replication with better graphics, but I do want all the new features (DI, area control gameplay etc), with the old ns1 feel, speed and skill that was required to skirmish and I believe that this feel and speed is NS's biggest feature against all the other games in the market.
Maybe implement drafting so a skulk can catch up with a sprinting marine. :V
NASKULK!
Why, when other FPS games slow their pace down and they all play/look/feel the same, wouldn't UWE want to differentiate NS2 by attempting the same fast paced gameplay that made NS1 so popular?
Firstly, it is not slow. It is probably one of the fastest shooters out there at the moment, so I'm not sure where people are going with this.
Secondly as has been mentioned by the devs, things will get smoother and faster with optimisation.
Also, all the chamber upgrades are yet to be introduced. The current Lerk can go at some speed if you know how to fly it, so when celerity and the like is introduced things will get even faster again.
You can only go so fast before this game becomes a Quake3/UT esq shooter, and at that point you loose strategic and tactical qualities of the RTS element. As I have stated before however, this is to do with speed, distance and time. They are all relative when it comes to balancing thinking time, and just shooting at everything that moves.
We are not going to see a Superman Fade because it was unbalanced and looked ridiculous, we are not going to see a certain movement skill that required stupid scripts and was hard to balance.
What we are going to see (I imagine) is a compromise that, as UWE have stated, will make this a competitive game that also allows for a casual scene. You can only make so much money if you turn this into some super hardcore game that a limited few will still play.
Could UWE make enough money selling a game to the hardcore that still play NS1? No.
A lot of people on here make bold statements. I'm not game designer, but I do design and have played games for long enough to have an understanding of what makes something successful - and not based upon personal desires, wishes or tastes.
A slow/fast game does not necessarily make something more elitist.
What makes a game elitist is a severely large learning curve combined with a highly complex system.
The most successful games will have a highly complex system, but which is easy to learn. Or playability value that goes beyond your first few hours/days - hopefully to months and years. Taking a casual gamer from 'interested and enjoys playing games' to 'I play every day'.
I would think that for many on here there is probably one game that peaked these interests in gaming. It could have been NS1, HL, CS.
But all too often I see people frightened off from their purchase of NS2 on servers, not everyone in the market or experience of the gaming market has the time or wants to play for hours.
Frequently there are people on servers whos first time experience, perhaps just because of a bad server, is "this is rubbish, so laggy". Or they haven't the foggiest of how to play the game.
This is a game that has to please a majority, not a minority. To be inclusive, not exclusive. NS2 will probably sit somewhere between the majority of the casual gamer and perhaps closer to the minority of hardcore.
NS2 should be fast, but not too fast. Because who wants to start playing any game the first time round where their first experiences are being instantly and repeatedly killed by some blur with claws. It's just not fun.
I'd say the present fade is potentially way harder to balance than the old blinker. Teleporting means even smaller time windows where it can be hit, which makes it very inconsistent and snap intense unless some notable blink cooldowns are introduced.
The movement system script dependency is very easy to fix and after that I'd say it more helped NS1 alien play to scale in skill levels rather than unbalancing it. If anything, the low level aliens were still slightly overpowered despite having a very challenging movement system to learn.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A lot of people on here make bold statements. I'm not game designer, but I do design and have played games for long enough to have an understanding of what makes something successful - and not based upon personal desires, wishes or tastes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I do agree that UWE needs to cope with the target audience and financial business, it's very debatable what options they have for doing it. At least I have very little reason to support an indie game if it doesn't offer any extra value compared to a mainstream one.
I think the UWE folks were already quite surprised on the amount of preorders they got in the first place. That might be some indication of how much NS style gameplay is missed and how much market such gameplay actually has. Whether it's enough to sustain a company like UWE is debatable of course.
Also, I don't think NS2 has any need to be as hardcore as NS1. NS1 was unnecessarily inaccessible in many ways. 3.2 is quite a lot more accessible than the vast majority of the versions that built NS' playerbase and even 3.2 has a plenty of huge issues that could be easily fixed now that they've got the option to redesign whatever they want. For example timing friendly jump, improved waypoint system, better keymapping and movement tutorial would already make a world of difference for the gaming experience of your average pubber. That's all without even thinking any actual gameplay design.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 should be fast, but not too fast. Because who wants to start playing any game the first time round where their first experiences are being instantly and repeatedly killed by some blur with claws. It just is not fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The alien skill based movement (which you called difficult to balance) ensured that a newbie vs newbie game stays at manageable speeds while the advanced players can still play at higher speeds and challenges.
I don't think teleporting fades, sniper lerks and early game leapskulks are much of an improvement to that section anyway. While they've brought down the speed that can be achieved through skill, the newbie vs newbie match is probably going to be at least equally chaotic. In addition, things like leap and blink are very binary right now. You can't for example do a careful blink, it's all or nothing right away. Good luck controlling that without previous NS experience and thorough map knowledge.
I wasn't necessarily talking about a fully-fledged downloadable mod (although when Server-Client Lua-synchronization becomes possible, this will be a snap), but more like some careful tinkering server-side. I'm still having a look at what exactly the posibilities are when operating strictly from the Server-VM, but something like increasing the field-of-view (in reference to earlier posts) should be easely do-able. You could also think about increasing the skulk's running-speed. I could have these features piggyback on the admin-mod, and have them optional for server-operators to use at their discretion.
*takes shelter from the community-dividing argument-bombardment*
And from then on they think whatever they say is justified.
Horrible comparisons and logic trains are made from then on which are generally, only considerably/arguably true IF the game was in fact complete.... but still(repetition for emphasis) just arguably.
*takes shelter from the community-dividing argument-bombardment*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, there are quite a lot of possibilities and I absolutely don't want to overrule any possibility at this point. Whatever ends up working is fine by me.
A lot depends on what modification is needed, how it can be accomplished and how the server browsing and filtering actually works. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
I think the currently sluggishness is due to a few things, including unoptimized graphics, networking and input. We also started over from scratch with the movement code (since it's not based on Half-life) so we probably need to make some changes there to make it feel more responsive.
I don't know if it will ever be as "fast" as NS1 (that was a pretty different era and FPS games have changed a lot) but we will get it feeling much more responsive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you, Charlie!!
It is so <b>awesome</b> what UWE are doing.
I personally hope that the team NEVER strays from the heart of the true idea of what Natural Selection is about!!
<!--quoteo(post=1838001:date=Mar 20 2011, 05:30 PM:name=Narcil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Narcil @ Mar 20 2011, 05:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838001"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You <u>need</u> to please your guaranteed player base by replicating the feel and complexity of ns1 and then spend time trying to work out a more successful way of introducing this style of play to new players (maybe user created and officially endorsed you-tube vids that quickly explain typical build orders / movement features (Bhop) etc which can be launched in the steam overlay window when an in game suggestion appears). This way you will retain your current player base whilst having the best chance of gaining new players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How ######en dare you Narcil?!
Just because you can't get your teenie brain around the REAL concept of Natural Selection', you think you can ######en order Flayra to make adjustments to the game?
No doubt, you're just another one of these 'rine '###### mofo's that think they're ######en RAMBO, and when your one hit wonder moves fail you blame the game.. LAME dude.
You're just LAME
How ######en dare you Narcil?!
Just because you can't get your teenie brain around the REAL concept of Natural Selection', you think you can ######en order Flayra to make adjustments to the game?
No doubt, you're just another one of these 'rine '###### mofo's that think they're ######en RAMBO, and when your one hit wonder moves fail you blame the game.. LAME dude.
You're just LAME<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
u mad?
No, why would I be?
I spent all day pwning this guy. =P
So unless you hit your target, then blink out again quickly and repeat you can find yourself in trouble very quickly, especially as flamethrowers reduce energy regeneration.
The sound is also very recognisable and instantly pre-warns everyone.
A Shotgun can take a fade down in 3 hits.
But if you play it right, it can be very effective.
No doubt, you're just another one of these 'rine '###### mofo's that think they're ######en RAMBO, and when your one hit wonder moves fail you blame the game.. LAME dude.
You're just LAME<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People like you are frustrating. If someone says they want fast gameplay they're immediately a rambo, script user, or a [insert any other derogatory term]. I see you like to use 'teenie brain.'
Before NS1 was made there was nothing quite like it. Even 8 years after NS1 was made there's nothing quite like it. It's unique. The fast, tense, wild, and sometimes chaotic pace of the game is a major contributing factor to why NS1 is so special.
I'm not a game developer and I don't follow player trends, but if I made one of the most successful mods of any game I wouldn't want to mess with the formula too much when making the sequel.
No one is saying make it UT2K4 or Quake and I don't think many players would mind if the pace was slowed down a <i>little.</i> That said, the OP is 100% correct. NS2 is slow and the 'feel' is not quite right.
Just so you know, if you were to ask me if I were for or against bunnyhop, and I could only choose one or the other, I would say: against.
But the fast and frenetic semi-realistic gameplay is what made NS what it is.
But as far as things like Bunny Hopping go, or Fades flying round like someone who has activated no clip mode in the HL engine. No.
Fast is fine, fast that consists of elitist scripting and the minority of a very hardcore community is not. Especially from a small team working on a small budget, and seemingly are sacrificing their own health to get this game to us.
I'd want to have some money so I could have a darn good holiday or life outside of NS if I was working 12+ hours a day, sometimes on weekends.
Just because you can't get your teenie brain around the REAL concept of Natural Selection', you think you can ######en order Flayra to make adjustments to the game?
No doubt, you're just another one of these 'rine '###### mofo's that think they're ######en RAMBO, and when your one hit wonder moves fail you blame the game.. LAME dude.
You're just LAME<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bashing someone else for stating their opinion, no matter how much you may believe or know is incorrect does nothing to make you any better than him. The exact opposite, in fact, it makes you look childish and ignorant. I don't even necessarily agree with Narcil, but that doesn't grant me the depth of understanding of who Narcil is that I would require to objectively judge and criticize him as you have. If you can't be constructive, at least be civil. If you can't be civil, please be so elsewhere.
Absolutely don't pick one. What these forums lack is exactly people able to discuss features as something more diverse than a simple yes/no or good/bad thingy. There's no such thing as a perfect system and there are very few systems that have absolutely no use or nothing to learn about. And HL movement system (including bhop) is huge, complicated system with a plenty of positives and negatives, no way it can be simplified into a yes or no question.
Also, if something seems valuable but has too many downsides it's a good idea to see whether the negatives can be eliminated or diminished. For example a quake styled jump timing solves the scripting issue from NS1 already, that's already taking the original concept into a better direction. Is it enough? That's all very much debatable.
NS1's audience was HUGE back in it's prime. For a few years there were so many clans from just my own country that I practically never had to play international teams. And there were even more pub players. Over the years new games came out and people moved on, but there are still a few servers and clans up after all this time.
Of course, NS1 was fast, complex and not very noob-friendly. For example, to learn movement tricks you often had to ask other players or search the internet for tutorials. If these things were taught ingame the game wouldn't be so unintuitive. I would very much prefer this approach over simply slowing movement and removing momentum etc.
FYI, I was being constructive.
Narcil was just being rude.. Unnacceptable, when the intended recipient is Flayra, wouldn't you agree?
It is so <b>awesome</b> what UWE are doing.
I personally hope that the team NEVER strays from the heart of the true idea of what Natural Selection is about!!
How ######en dare you Narcil?!
Just because you can't get your teenie brain around the REAL concept of Natural Selection', you think you can ######en order Flayra to make adjustments to the game?
No doubt, you're just another one of these 'rine '###### mofo's that think they're ######en RAMBO, and when your one hit wonder moves fail you blame the game.. LAME dude.
You're just LAME<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=measles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (measles)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->FYI, I was being constructive.
Narcil was just being rude.. Unnacceptable, when the intended recipient is Flayra, wouldn't you agree?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am free to put my opinion forward, and it was simply that, my opinion. If you took the time to read the post instead of taking one section out of context then you would have seen that. Also I don't see anywhere in my post where I am attacking or being rude to Flayra. Just because I think the game should be heading closer in one direction doesn't mean that I think Flayra is wrong, I am just providing an alternate opinion. which I know as a designer myself is helpful and constructive.
You however need to take a look at yourself, your comments just look like you are brown-nosing with the devs.
I don't see how you can accuse me of having a "teenie" brain, when you make comments like this. Just so you know I'm not some teenager sitting in my dark bedroom commenting on obscure games, I happen to be quite a highly qualified engineer that works a full week and then likes to relax with some games during my occasional free time.
Anyway apart from that, I still think that the best way for ns2 to be successful is the make the game feel more like ns1 in order to break the mould of the current Gen games.
You however need to take a look at yourself, your comments just look like you are brown-nosing with the devs.
I don't see how you can accuse me of having a "teenie" brain, when you make comments like this. Just so you know I'm not some teenager sitting in my dark bedroom commenting on obscure games, I happen to be quite a highly qualified engineer that works a full week and then likes to relax with some games during my occasional free time.
Anyway apart from that, I still think that the best way for ns2 to be successful is the make the game feel more like ns1 in order to break the mould of the current Gen games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I apoligise;
I know you're a good player, but as you you can see from some of the other posts even, you do not seem to be 'getting to grips' of what the 'natural selection' realm is really about!
Please, give credit, were credit is due. We all <u>need</u> to CONTINUE to be patient.. When this game is finally released it will get better ratings then HL2 did, and we can all stand proud that we were there, behind the devs from day ###### 1!
I still enjoyed every minute of it, the game speed was simply a learning curve, something lacking in todays "Hide behind cover" games. Seemingly replaced by the hideous "unlocks" system that validates nothing and is creeping into every shooter like DI on a res node. As long as that teamplay aspect remains paramount, NS2 will still be popular, as for the speed aspect, lets see what the future brings eh.
I'll start a thread instead of hijacking. Sorries.