No Fly Zone
That_Annoying_Kid
Sire of Titles Join Date: 2003-03-01 Member: 14175Members, Constellation
Sire of Titles Join Date: 2003-03-01 Member: 14175Members, Constellation
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">announced for Libya</div>If you have been following the Libya drama as of late you will notice that Gaddafi has been using his air force as a trump card against the rebels, however as of thirty minutes ago he apparently has lost this.
Russia and China abstained from the vote, which was 10-0, but curiously enough they were one of the first states to support (purportedly they were okay with the concept as long as neighboring countries like Syria, and Egypt agreed, and what do they have to loose?) asking for a no fly zone...
Either way, with recently assaults of rebel held cities by armored truck being beat back by militias comprised of thousands of seventeen year old ak wielding volunteer soldiers, and the only real thing standing in the way of a trouncing now gone, I think the situation in Libya will accelerate. I predict massive attacks come morning!
iirc the United States has a carrier that is in the Mediterranean that is more than capable of enforcing this no fly zone.
Interesting times in North Africa these days
Russia and China abstained from the vote, which was 10-0, but curiously enough they were one of the first states to support (purportedly they were okay with the concept as long as neighboring countries like Syria, and Egypt agreed, and what do they have to loose?) asking for a no fly zone...
Either way, with recently assaults of rebel held cities by armored truck being beat back by militias comprised of thousands of seventeen year old ak wielding volunteer soldiers, and the only real thing standing in the way of a trouncing now gone, I think the situation in Libya will accelerate. I predict massive attacks come morning!
iirc the United States has a carrier that is in the Mediterranean that is more than capable of enforcing this no fly zone.
Interesting times in North Africa these days
Comments
Speaking of which, what's going on in Egypt these days? Haven't heard anything lately. And what about Tunis? Tunis seems to get no attention at all. Or maybe I'm just not paying attention.
I can't imagine the Libyan Air Force is in any condition to put up much of a fight against Western air power but I am not sure how I feel about enforcing a no fly zone.
<a href="http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/8270/foreigninterestsinlibya.jpg" target="_blank">Foreign energy interests in Libya</a>
<!--QuoteBegin-Stratfor.com+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stratfor.com)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Europeans, however, are not showing a united front on the issue. Italy, which has the most energy investments in Libya and derives the greatest proportion of its energy from Libyan oil and natural gas, has hedged its bets toward Tripoli throughout the crisis. It is now faced with the prospect of Gadhafi returning firmly in power and has backed off from even its initial statement that it would allow its territory — but not military — to be used to enforce the no-fly zone. Germany, faced with three important state elections in the next 10 days, is backing off for largely domestic reasons. France and the United Kingdom, however, have little to lose by being forceful on Libya — their energy assets in Libya are nowhere near as productive and crucial for their energy companies as for Italy — in fact, both benefit domestically by seeking to lead on the crisis.
However, it is unlikely that either the USNC or NATO countries will unanimously support operations. This means that if they decide to go ahead with airstrikes, France, the United States and the United Kingdom would go alone. This is at this moment an unlikely scenario considering that the United States is still embroiled in operations in Iraq and Afghanistan and with France facing European disunity on the issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.stratfor.com/memberships/188463/graphic_of_the_day/20110317-foreign-interests-intervention-libya" target="_blank">Full article</a>
U.S. lost our puppet in Egypt so we have to move to Libya.
---
The "No Fly Zone" way of excusing ourselves into war is kind of like this:
Hey jerk! Don't cross this line! If you do, I'll take that
as an act of aggression, and be forced to defend myself!
<me draws chalk line on ground, BEHIND you>
OMG you crossed the line! How dare you! I am forced to defend myself...
I believe Libya is one of Europe's bigger suppliers.
Is that better than a secular dictator who wears funny hats? I don't know. Maybe we should have thought about it first and Obama could have maybe asked Congress. You know, that representative government thing that is supposed to help make important decisions and stuff.
"As Commander-in-Chief, the President does have a duty to protect and defend the United States. In instances of self-defense, the President would be within his constitutional authority to act before advising Congress or seeking its consent. History has shown us time and again, however, that military action is most successful when it is authorized and supported by the Legislative branch. It is always preferable to have the informed consent of Congress prior to any military action." Sen. Barack Obama, 2007.
I'm sure if we didn't intervene, the same people criticizing the action being taken now would be complaining about how we didn't do anything while Gaddafi slaughtered his own civilians later.
So it doesn't surprise me that you have pre-emptively refused to actually participate in any discussion.
Instead, you are content to call me stupid, make a "HURR WAR" argument that falls flat on its face, and then run away and hide. Typical for a chickenhawk.
All this was done thru the UN at the behest of France and the neighboring countries were just a coalition of the willing... Arab league has also ran sorties, England has been chucking tomahawks as well.
As mentioned in the first post, China and Russia worked behind scenes to have this gain momentum as well
Besides, no troops on the ground and we've destroyed air defense, air force, along with the armor that was being used to crush rebels with lots of inadvertent casualties
and preventing civilian deaths is why the world intervened
besides the US should really be more concerned with stopping the poppies in Afghanistan but that is a whole other topic in and of itself
So the President can ignore Congress and act like a military dictator so long as some foreign countries say they don't mind?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->who cares about the presidents authority?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, Obama did, according to his own words as quoted above.
But don't worry, you're in good company, because as the great philosopher Spears once said, "Honestly, I think we should just trust our president in every decision he makes and should just support that, you know, and be faithful in what happens."
That would be like communism.
There is so much wrong with that entire thing that it really does annoy me a lot, but I guess the main issue I have is that NATO <i>doesn't have enough intel on the situation</i> to make proper calls on bombing runs. If you can accidentally bomb the wrong side because you just plain didn't know they're the wrong side, then maybe you shouldn't be carrying out bombing runs. But in addition to that, there's the fact that this is their god damn explanation for it; the lack of intel isn't the thing they're apologising for, it's the thing they're using to justify something else as if that makes it all cool. They just out and admit that they have no idea what's going on in Libya but they're bombing anyway. That is horrible.
I was on the "must get oil for America" bandwagon at the beginning lolf, although yeah, America instigated the offense and NATO are spearheading the entire operation, which some may look at as a US way to cover up, after non-NATO and UN support made America look really bad in the Iraq insurgence. Although it's up to us to all believe what we believe.
Underneath it all, I think it's phase 2 of modernising the Middle East and Africa. Phase 1 being Iraq. There's only so long people will live with medieval type law and society in an age where communication is globally available and reaching out to the poorer regions. Our society is by no means fair in the West, although it seems the people of the Middle East and Africa are starting to find out that it's fairer than their way of life, particularly the role of enabling choice in society.
A lot of the African and Middle Eastern countries get a fairly large amount of aid from the West, I think from our perspective it's about time the investment gets to see a return, from my own perspective, the people of those countries in conflict are looking to do that, and by doing that they're also looking to inject freedom, choice and move forward in the nation they live in by putting their lives on the line to get out of restricted lives they currently have imposed on them.
One thing that did make me laugh about the involvement of the USA and their initial laying down of a no-fly zone within Libya was one military source was quoted as saying "We wanted to put in place a no fly zone, but not with our planes." Maybe that shows the level of commitment the US is putting in to Libya, which is no where near as much effort as they put in to Iraq, if you're in to the oil conspiracy.
In the real world, there are usually multiple motives that coincide which precipitate some action, right or wrong.
However, it would be nice if our benevolent overlords let us participate in the discussion, as it's clear <b>even those who agree with the actions don't believe it is simply for the purpose of saving lives</b>.
Then, once we knew the motives of our own government, we could have a fair and open debate in our free society. Maybe I would discover we are there to help them have a more free and transparent government as part of a broader campaign, and I could pat myself on the back for it. Although, in general, it's a good idea to lead by example rather than force freedom on people.
But we just don't know exactly why we're there, despite the publicly stated goals.
And that should concern you.
.
I like how you make it sound like England and other European countries had nothing to do with this.
My reply was simply just relating to lolfighter and the America/Oil conspiracy, which of course was the main theme around Iraq and last Middle Eastern intervention. It was not an anti-America stance.
But I don't know if this <i>is</i> about oil, really. That was just my first impulse, but it could be anything. The only thing I'm sure of is that I don't believe the fairytale about "exporting freedom and democracy." It's a touching story, but in light of the past western attitude to tyranny and oppression in other countries (indifference at best, support at worst), an utterly implausible one.
Hell, look up Operation TPAJAX. THAT is what our governments do when they meddle in the affairs of foreign nations.
when the real estate bubble pops in China, it's going to make what went down in the US recently look like a walk in the park.
I recall an article where some world bank was stress testing China and saying it was bound to happen, but that is another topic....
As off topic as I'll take that for now =]