Make sentries a lvl2 structure

ScardyBob

Sentries are a newb-comm trap right now. I frequently watch matches where the first thing the marine comm does is blow 20-40 res on early sentries. Not only does that waste valuable starting res they should be using to get more res nodes, lvl2 cc, shotguns, etc, but it encourages tedious defensive turtling and a painfully drawn out stalemate in most cases.

Making sentries a lvl2 structure would discourage both problems.

Papayas

Good Idea Scardybob,
not only will it improve early gameplay it will also improve (Like you said) the turtling that the marines seem to do at the moment.

Shilorius

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I admit, it is a Newbie Trap. But if you are allone in Marine Team, you need a Sentry to protect your IP,
because, if you don't have one the Skulk needs just to kill you once to win.
(If you are dead and it is chomping on the IP ... you will stay dead).

In addition, you see if the Skulk is in your base because it has to kill the Sentry first - not the IP.

Harimau

I think the idea behind it is sound, just have it require something; a higher tier though may be too much. Have it require research perhaps, as KuBaN suggests.

ScardyBob

<!--quoteo(post=1840639:date=Apr 12 2011, 03:11 AM:name=Shilorius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shilorius @ Apr 12 2011, 03:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840639"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->-1<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

I admit, it is a Newbie Trap. But if you are allone in Marine Team, you need a Sentry to protect your IP,
because, if you don't have one the Skulk needs just to kill you once to win.
(If you are dead and it is chomping on the IP ... you will stay dead).

In addition, you see if the Skulk is in your base because it has to kill the Sentry first - not the IP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

If you're alone on the marine team, then you're probably going to lose anyways unless you're very, very good at jumping in and out of the cc to kill skulks.

Also, it doesn't take long to kill a sentry. At best, this just buys you a few seconds before the skulk returns to chomp your (now defenseless) ip.

luns

making commanding more easier, what? thinking isn't required, lets follow our rotation of winning.

if you have bad commanders who makes bad choices, you find the problem is in the turrets?

I rather they balanced out shotgun damage against alien buildings.

ScardyBob

<!--quoteo(post=1840691:date=Apr 12 2011, 12:50 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Apr 12 2011, 12:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840691"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->making commanding more easier, what? thinking isn't required, lets follow our rotation of winning.

if you have bad commanders who makes bad choices, you find the problem is in the turrets?

I rather they balanced out shotgun damage against alien buildings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I guess I don't view them as 'bad' commanders but new commanders. I've made many stupid decisions in other games as a new player. The problem with NS2 is that if a new commander makes a bad decision, he ruins the game for his entire team rather than just himself. Its really a form of unintentional griefing that can and should be fixed by UWE.

luns

its called learning and practice.

I'm sure in 1.0 macs will be commanding sooner or later.
but seriously, its part of the game this problem happens on the alien team as well, so we must apply same logic there now, right?

ScardyBob

<!--quoteo(post=1840700:date=Apr 12 2011, 01:35 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Apr 12 2011, 01:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840700"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->its called learning and practice.

I'm sure in 1.0 macs will be commanding sooner or later.
but seriously, its part of the game this problem happens on the alien team as well, so we must apply same logic there now, right?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Actually, that's not a bad idea. Why not make hydras/whips require lvl2 tech for aliens also? Hydras and whips are not as bad as sentries, newb-trap wise, but I don't see why we should encourage comms to turtle from the start. The best NS2 matches I've played have been when both sides are aggressive on offensive rather than one (or both) deciding to turtle in their start.

McGlaspie

One problem with that Bob, the sides aren't exactly symmetrical. So, if you made Whips L2, then how do the aliens get Melee 1?

ScardyBob

<!--quoteo(post=1840936:date=Apr 13 2011, 07:50 PM:name=McGlaspie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (McGlaspie @ Apr 13 2011, 07:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840936"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One problem with that Bob, the sides aren't exactly symmetrical. So, if you made Whips L2, then how do the aliens get Melee 1?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Simple solution; put all upgrades on one screen accessible via the comm interface or by selecting a CC/hive. Not only are all of the upgrades in one place, but new comms can quickly see which upgrades are dependent on which structures/tech levels. Having to select a structure to perform universal upgrades is unnecessary in NS2 and should be done away with for simplicity sake.

crae

>done away with for simplicity sake.

I agree, put all upgrades in one place, but still link them to structures.

Ironsoul

on the subject of the turret, why not just allow for a single low level sentry to be placed at the beginning, and a new and improved sentry will be available at lvl 2. The lvl 1 sentry is power inefficient and low fire rate, but useful enough for beginning of the round to protect infantry portal. Once the upgrade to lvl 2 turret is complete, the lvl 1 turret upgrades automatically.

KuBaN

The glaring Achille's heel (that I am however in favor of) makes the sentries feel too expensive right now, but cutting the cost just makes them more spammable with no real consequence, because right now you can build sentries from the start, no commitment required. Solution? Move the Robotics Factory down to Tier 1 and make it a Prerequisite of the Sentry Turret (just require that one be built, not necessarily require one be in range like the old turret factories). Then you can justifiably nerf Sentry cost or buff Sentries themselves. They're still spammable, but with the initial cost higher you've got to choose whether you'd benefit more from Turrets or Shotguns or an Extractor, etc... and with actual CHOICE different strategies will present themselves.

Ironsoul

that's a good idea, making a prerequisite building before building a turret.

ScardyBob

<!--quoteo(post=1841093:date=Apr 15 2011, 01:49 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Apr 15 2011, 01:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1841093"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The glaring Achille's heel (that I am however in favor of) makes the sentries feel too expensive right now, but cutting the cost just makes them more spammable with no real consequence, because right now you can build sentries from the start, no commitment required. Solution? Move the Robotics Factory down to Tier 1 and make it a Prerequisite of the Sentry Turret (just require that one be built, not necessarily require one be in range like the old turret factories). Then you can justifiably nerf Sentry cost or buff Sentries themselves. They're still spammable, but with the initial cost higher you've got to choose whether you'd benefit more from Turrets or Shotguns or an Extractor, etc... and with actual CHOICE different strategies will present themselves.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I'm actually a fan of making all structures cheaper (or drastically increasing res flow) and then instituting a hard cap. So make sentries 1 TRes, but limit them to 5 per CC, for example. The problem with the 'limit them via high TRes costs' is that it drastically increases the learning curve of successful commanding. This is one of the problems of FPS/RTS hybrid games in that learning to be a good comm is so difficult that few people achieve it. That wouldn't be a problem, except a bad comm ruins the game not just for himself, but for his team. That's why I'm all for making commanding as simple and forgiving as possible.

Unfortunately, it doesn't look like this is UWE's plan, so NS2 will suffer the same high comm learning curve problems as NS1.

McGlaspie

I wouldn't count them out on making it accessible just yet. Keep in mind they've been bogged down by incomplete features and performance problems. So, they have been able to get into that "zen state" of focusing on nothing but gameplay value and balance. It can always be changed, and I'm certain it will.

FocusedWolf

+1 for L2 restricted turrets or something equivalent like blocking them until marines have 3+ rts and L1 armor + damage.

The <u>excessive</u> cost of 1 turret has cost many games for sure.

KuBaN

<!--quoteo(post=1841462:date=Apr 18 2011, 07:22 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Apr 18 2011, 07:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1841462"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So make sentries 1 TRes, but limit them to 5 per CC, for example. The problem with the 'limit them via high TRes costs' is that it drastically increases the learning curve of successful commanding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On a related note, would be interesting if (in addition to TRes) all buildings were to cost a various amount of "Power" that active Power Nodes provided. Would essentially cap the number of structures you can have built by the number of Power Nodes up. Still, I think just giving Turrets a structure dependency/prerequisite is the least invasive solution.

Also, TRes production/costs will probably need to be shifted across the board, otherwise they're going to end up with fractional costs when they go to balance costs. Example:

Res Flow: 10 TRes / 12 seconds per Extractor
Armory: 100 TRes
Command Station: 200 TRes
Extractor: 150 TRes
Infantry Portal: 200 TRes
Sentry Turret: 200 TRes

Which gives much more wiggle room when tweaking.