ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1841364:date=Apr 17 2011, 07:22 PM:name=PhYzor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PhYzor @ Apr 17 2011, 07:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1841364"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If alien team have 0 Rt and not enough ress to buil an other RT the game is over... If an alien kill a marine he can't have +5 ress, it's a bug.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The +5 you get when you kill a player only gives you points, not res. A bit confusing, yes, but not a bug.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
I kind of miss kills for res. At least give individual resources for kills.
On topic though, it is a little unfair that the marines can recycle stuff to build another RT if they need to. Aliens can't. Extractors are also much harder to take down. I can't say I've ever seen a game when the marines had not RTs, or even the loss of the RT in marine start.
<!--quoteo(post=1841372:date=Apr 18 2011, 05:10 AM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ Apr 18 2011, 05:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1841372"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I kind of miss kills for res. At least give individual resources for kills.
On topic though, it is a little unfair that the marines can recycle stuff to build another RT if they need to. Aliens can't. Extractors are also much harder to take down. I can't say I've ever seen a game when the marines had not RTs, or even the loss of the RT in marine start.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you let aliens recycle buildings, you'd have a ton of people up in arms about team symmetry.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1841412:date=Apr 18 2011, 08:34 AM:name=Avalon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Avalon @ Apr 18 2011, 08:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1841412"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you let aliens recycle buildings, you'd have a ton of people up in arms about team symmetry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let them. Aliens needs the ability to recycle buildings badly.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1841430:date=Apr 18 2011, 11:44 AM:name=Racer1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racer1 @ Apr 18 2011, 11:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1841430"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Rather than recycle, how about relocate for a small res fee (to anywhere else that is infested).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Something like that is already planned for an ability of the Shift, called "echo". The alien commander will be able to move structures around on the map, including harvesters and hives.
I think both teams need to have a very slight passive resource tick regardless of how many RTs they have. I'm talking maybe 1 res per 2 or 3 normal res ticks, or slight rfk going towards team res, or gorges being able to build harvesters with pres and some rfk going towards pres instead. It is just a fundamental flaw of the game that you can knock out all RTs of the other team and leave them near helpless without the game telling them their team lost. I agree you should not let your RTs die and if so shame on you, but for aliens this is especially hard to prevent with good marine players.
Lazer , good idea but I would change your idea to this instead...
Let the alien Hives collect res, at a considerably reduced rate compared to a collector, so that when the Aliens lose thier last collector they can still hold out for res for a new collector.
That way Mariens get the recycle to scrape up res for a new RT, Aliens have to play the hold and wait game for res to trickle in to buy a collector... different but both allow a manner to buy a last collector.
I agree with making kills to give you Personal Resources.
<u>Good things about this:</u>
-It would make dying bad as it gives the other team res (People do not go back if they are low hp) -It promotes more skilful players
<u>Bad things about this:</u>
-Having bad people who run out and die a lot makes the game unfair for your team
<!--quoteo(post=1841441:date=Apr 18 2011, 07:40 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Apr 18 2011, 07:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1841441"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let the alien Hives collect res, at a considerably reduced rate compared to a collector, so that when the Aliens lose thier last collector they can still hold out for res for a new collector.
That way Mariens get the recycle to scrape up res for a new RT, Aliens have to play the hold and wait game for res to trickle in to buy a collector... different but both allow a manner to buy a last collector.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, but the aliens still need to be abled to destroy buildings even if they don't give you any res.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1841443:date=Apr 18 2011, 12:45 PM:name=Papayas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Papayas @ Apr 18 2011, 12:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1841443"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with making kills to give you Personal Resources.
<u>Good things about this:</u> -It would make dying bad as it gives the other team res (People do not go back if they are low hp) -It promotes more skilful players
<u>Bad things about this:</u> -Having bad people who run out and die a lot makes the game unfair for your team<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this. Kills should give you something useful, but TRes seems OP.
<!--quoteo(post=1841441:date=Apr 18 2011, 01:40 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Apr 18 2011, 01:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1841441"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lazer , good idea but I would change your idea to this instead...
Let the alien Hives collect res, at a considerably reduced rate compared to a collector, so that when the Aliens lose thier last collector they can still hold out for res for a new collector.
That way Mariens get the recycle to scrape up res for a new RT, Aliens have to play the hold and wait game for res to trickle in to buy a collector... different but both allow a manner to buy a last collector.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed that sounds like a better solution. It would also help speed up the game slightly when the aliens are dominating in # of tech points. I do however still find it concerning that marines could be left with no res income. Maybe the same could be applied to CCs? I would say rfk could solve this, but in all honesty rfk only makes sense for aliens as the explanation could be that dead marines get consumed by the kharaa.
If we would like this to be solved asymmetrically: -Kharaa get personal rfk that a gorge can use to build an RT... or Kharaa get team rfk that the comm can use. -Marines get very slight CC team res.
If we would like this to be solved symmetrically: -Hive gains very slight team res, CC gets the same.
Another symmetric although completely different (and I think pretty cool) approach: There was an idea I had seen mentioned about allowing drifters/MACs to sit on an RT and collect small quantities of res. I actually really like this idea and adds use/importance to these entities without throwing off balance much (things like rfk, or teams having unconditional minimum res flow).
There is also the possibility of only MACs being capable of drawing res from RTs and hives slowly generating res to maintain some asymmetry.
I agree that far weaker towers and no ability to instantly recycle like the marines, are a pain for the alien team. How about letting the alien hive receive 1/5 of the resource trickle from nodes with creep on it? Maybe with some subtle resource-siphoning orange bubble automatically generated by the infestation. The alien team would then have the capacity to generate res faster, to counteract the marines having stronger options for RT defense, and to remove the really annoying downtime when aliens has no towers and under 15 res, and you're just waiting to be exterminated because not everyone go to the ready room.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1841453:date=Apr 18 2011, 03:43 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Apr 18 2011, 03:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1841453"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or maybe you just don't let marines kill your res nodes, which should be possible after some more balance is in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ironic, because what we are talking about is balancing the game.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1841453:date=Apr 18 2011, 04:43 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Apr 18 2011, 04:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1841453"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or maybe you just don't let marines kill your res nodes, which should be possible after some more balance is in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We are talking about balance here. Two marines with shotguns res hunting is almost unstoppable. The harvester dies before you can react. Even with two skulks biting on an extractor, a marine usually has time to sprint there and kill them in time. Marine structures can also be healed basically for free (MACs), while aliens have to spend personal resources and a lot of time, to evolve to a gorge to heal things. Not exactly balanced IMHO.
<!--quoteo(post=1841446:date=Apr 18 2011, 08:08 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Apr 18 2011, 08:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1841446"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like this. Kills should give you something useful, but TRes seems OP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1841464:date=Apr 18 2011, 04:31 PM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ Apr 18 2011, 04:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1841464"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We are talking about balance here. Two marines with shotguns res hunting is almost unstoppable. The harvester dies before you can react. Even with two skulks biting on an extractor, a marine usually has time to sprint there and kill them in time. Marine structures can also be healed basically for free (MACs), while aliens have to spend personal resources and a lot of time, to evolve to a gorge to heal things. Not exactly balanced IMHO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Presumably, NurEinMensch is talking about other balance changes such as nerfing shotgun damage against structures. The problem is that minor changes like that doesn't solve the problem of what to do when you lose all of your harvesters and don't have another 15 TRes to rebuild. It merely decreases the frequency of that specific situation occurring.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Well, if, through balance changes, the frequency of aliens losing all harvesters becomes equal to that of marines losing all extractors, the problem does go away. That's because I've yet to play in a game where the marines have lost all their extractors and not lost the game within the next minute. I'm not saying some form of small res flow from other sources isn't a good idea, just that balance issues could very well make the need for it very low.
<!--quoteo(post=1841471:date=Apr 19 2011, 12:45 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Apr 19 2011, 12:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1841471"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Presumably, NurEinMensch is talking about other balance changes such as nerfing shotgun damage against structures. The problem is that minor changes like that doesn't solve the problem of what to do when you lose all of your harvesters and don't have another 15 TRes to rebuild. It merely decreases the frequency of that specific situation occurring.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that the shotgun should have a damage vs sturctures decrease. It currently does 200 damage against everything, this means that it is a good end game weapon and it shouldn't be. I think the shotgun should do only 100 damage vs structures (Still 200 vs units).
>Two marines with shotguns res hunting is almost unstoppable.
Sometimes. A harvester defended with 5+ hydra's, a crag for healing and good DI placement (to give plenty of warning of approaching marines) is a formidable challenge to 2-3 SG's. Creativity, ingenuity and adaption can make up for almost all of the so called 'balance' issues.
Commenting that an existing game play mechanic is over-powered indicates that you have stopped evolving you playing strategies. You are stuck in a fixed pattern and you want to change the game to conform to these patterns. Evolution is the name of the game. The best, most evolved and flexible strategy is the key.
If you keep losing harvesters to SG's rushes, perhaps it's a sign you are expanding too fast OR you need to put more emphasis on defense OR you need to configure you defenses in a more useful manner OR you need better awareness of what's happening on the map OR you need better communication within the team OR [insert one of hundreds of other strategy improvements]
A poor craftsman blames his tools for poor results, same situation with pretty much everything in life, including NS2. Evolve.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1841477:date=Apr 18 2011, 07:11 PM:name=crae)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crae @ Apr 18 2011, 07:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1841477"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->>Two marines with shotguns res hunting is almost unstoppable.
Sometimes. A harvester defended with 5+ hydra's, a crag for healing and good DI placement (to give plenty of warning of approaching marines) is a formidable challenge to 2-3 SG's. Creativity, ingenuity and adaption can make up for almost all of the so called 'balance' issues.
Commenting that an existing game play mechanic is over-powered indicates that you have stopped evolving you playing strategies. You are stuck in a fixed pattern and you want to change the game to conform to these patterns. Evolution is the name of the game. The best, most evolved and flexible strategy is the key.
If you keep losing harvesters to SG's rushes, perhaps it's a sign you are expanding too fast OR you need to put more emphasis on defense OR you need to configure you defenses in a more useful manner OR you need better awareness of what's happening on the map OR you need better communication within the team OR [insert one of hundreds of other strategy improvements]
A poor craftsman blames his tools for poor results, same situation with pretty much everything in life, including NS2. Evolve.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the same thing happened to the marines, I'd agree with you, but it is overwhelmingly an alien problem. Why should aliens need tons of hydras, extra DI, and better tactics to hold their res towers when marines do fine with noobies and no automated defenses? There is clearly a problem.
You are stuck in a particular mind-set that see's problems. Problems don't exist in my world, I see opportunities for improving my skills and abilities.
You are assuming that the game needs to be fair and balanced and if it isn't then a 'problem' exists. The way I got REALLY good at playing CS (before NS existed) and NS1 was I ALWAYS joined the weakest team. Why? Because you can't grow your skills and abilities without them being challenged. The bigger the challenge the bigger the opportunity for improvement.
Unfortunately, improvement takes ALLOT of effort and time - it's mostly trial and error repeated many times over. People who complain about fairness and balance just want someone else to provide a solution to the challenge so they don't have to find one themselves. Basically, it's laziness, and it's what separates the good players from the great.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1841485:date=Apr 18 2011, 07:33 PM:name=crae)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crae @ Apr 18 2011, 07:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1841485"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->>There is clearly a problem.
You don't understand.
You are stuck in a particular mind-set that see's problems. Problems don't exist in my world, I see opportunities for improving my skills and abilities.
You are assuming that the game needs to be fair and balanced and if it isn't then a 'problem' exists. The way I got REALLY good at playing CS (before NS existed) and NS1 was I ALWAYS joined the weakest team. Why? Because you can't grow your skills and abilities without them being challenged. The bigger the challenge the bigger the opportunity for improvement.
Unfortunately, improvement takes ALLOT of effort and time - it's mostly trial and error repeated many times over. People who complain about fairness and balance just want someone else to provide a solution to the challenge so they don't have to find one themselves. Basically, it's laziness, and it's what separates the good players from the great.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> While I understand the sentiment and do enjoy a good challenge on occasion, I get the impression that most of the NS2 playerbase will likely play this game casually. Sometimes I like to play games to relax. Requiring me to be at my best all the time just to have a hope of winning means I'll just play games other than NS2 when I want to relax. 'Balance' really means bringing down the skill requirement to a level consistent with the average gamer UWE is tailoring NS2 too. As you probably saw in CS, that doesn't mean you can't have very challenging matches against skilled opponents, but that every match doesn't have to be like that.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
By your logic, lets just give marines auto-aiming 1 hit kill weapons and the commander a nuke that kills all aliens every 30 seconds. Who cares about balance, right? As long as you have enough skill, aliens can still win, so if you lose as alien, just just need to work harder.
I don't want to dumb down the game, I just want each side to require the same amount of skill, though the skills needed will certainly be different.
crae, you can still be challenged by a balanced game if your opponents are skilled, and if it's balanced it will also be playable for all who demand a fair playing field (such as the competitive community), so balancing the game is invariably a good thing.
<!--quoteo(post=1841477:date=Apr 19 2011, 01:11 AM:name=crae)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crae @ Apr 19 2011, 01:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1841477"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sometimes. A harvester defended with 5+ hydra's, a crag for healing and good DI placement (to give plenty of warning of approaching marines) is a formidable challenge to 2-3 SG's. Creativity, ingenuity and adaption can make up for almost all of the so called 'balance' issues.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hydras should become better in the next upcoming builds; like prediction.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Accounting for player velocity when hydras attack, so they attack where you'll be (I forgot that offense chambers did this in NS1) #fb<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1841533:date=Apr 19 2011, 10:24 AM:name=Papayas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Papayas @ Apr 19 2011, 10:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1841533"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hydras should become better in the next upcoming builds; like prediction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Problem solved, my friends.
Yeah I think this is a problem (not being able to recover from losing your last Harvester). I'm not sure what the right fix is, but for some reason I don't like the idea of aliens recycling their structures. Maybe getting a single "tick" of res always. I'll think about it.
<!--quoteo(post=1841485:date=Apr 18 2011, 06:33 PM:name=crae)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crae @ Apr 18 2011, 06:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1841485"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->>There is clearly a problem.
You don't understand.
You are stuck in a particular mind-set that see's problems. Problems don't exist in my world, I see opportunities for improving my skills and abilities.
You are assuming that the game needs to be fair and balanced and if it isn't then a 'problem' exists. The way I got REALLY good at playing CS (before NS existed) and NS1 was I ALWAYS joined the weakest team. Why? Because you can't grow your skills and abilities without them being challenged. The bigger the challenge the bigger the opportunity for improvement.
Unfortunately, improvement takes ALLOT of effort and time - it's mostly trial and error repeated many times over. People who complain about fairness and balance just want someone else to provide a solution to the challenge so they don't have to find one themselves. Basically, it's laziness, and it's what separates the good players from the great.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No no, you don't understand. The point is to get the game balanced first, THEN let
be what decides between two seemingly asymmetric yet hopefully evenly matched teams. I think once the game features in place then strategy would be a more relevant topic.
Also we're all aware that different teams are suppose to have their weaknesses and strengths: range, stealth, speed or power to name a few, but something as fundamental as the ability to maintain resources should be of comparable effort to achieve.
Comments
If an alien kill a marine he can't have +5 ress, it's a bug.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The +5 you get when you kill a player only gives you points, not res. A bit confusing, yes, but not a bug.
On topic though, it is a little unfair that the marines can recycle stuff to build another RT if they need to. Aliens can't. Extractors are also much harder to take down. I can't say I've ever seen a game when the marines had not RTs, or even the loss of the RT in marine start.
On topic though, it is a little unfair that the marines can recycle stuff to build another RT if they need to. Aliens can't. Extractors are also much harder to take down. I can't say I've ever seen a game when the marines had not RTs, or even the loss of the RT in marine start.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you let aliens recycle buildings, you'd have a ton of people up in arms about team symmetry.
Let them. Aliens needs the ability to recycle buildings badly.
Something like that is already planned for an ability of the Shift, called "echo". The alien commander will be able to move structures around on the map, including harvesters and hives.
Let the alien Hives collect res, at a considerably reduced rate compared to a collector, so that when the Aliens lose thier last collector they can still hold out for res for a new collector.
That way Mariens get the recycle to scrape up res for a new RT, Aliens have to play the hold and wait game for res to trickle in to buy a collector... different but both allow a manner to buy a last collector.
<u>Good things about this:</u>
-It would make dying bad as it gives the other team res (People do not go back if they are low hp)
-It promotes more skilful players
<u>Bad things about this:</u>
-Having bad people who run out and die a lot makes the game unfair for your team
<!--quoteo(post=1841441:date=Apr 18 2011, 07:40 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Apr 18 2011, 07:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1841441"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let the alien Hives collect res, at a considerably reduced rate compared to a collector, so that when the Aliens lose thier last collector they can still hold out for res for a new collector.
That way Mariens get the recycle to scrape up res for a new RT, Aliens have to play the hold and wait game for res to trickle in to buy a collector... different but both allow a manner to buy a last collector.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, but the aliens still need to be abled to destroy buildings even if they don't give you any res.
<u>Good things about this:</u>
-It would make dying bad as it gives the other team res (People do not go back if they are low hp)
-It promotes more skilful players
<u>Bad things about this:</u>
-Having bad people who run out and die a lot makes the game unfair for your team<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this. Kills should give you something useful, but TRes seems OP.
Let the alien Hives collect res, at a considerably reduced rate compared to a collector, so that when the Aliens lose thier last collector they can still hold out for res for a new collector.
That way Mariens get the recycle to scrape up res for a new RT, Aliens have to play the hold and wait game for res to trickle in to buy a collector... different but both allow a manner to buy a last collector.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed that sounds like a better solution. It would also help speed up the game slightly when the aliens are dominating in # of tech points. I do however still find it concerning that marines could be left with no res income. Maybe the same could be applied to CCs? I would say rfk could solve this, but in all honesty rfk only makes sense for aliens as the explanation could be that dead marines get consumed by the kharaa.
If we would like this to be solved asymmetrically:
-Kharaa get personal rfk that a gorge can use to build an RT... or Kharaa get team rfk that the comm can use.
-Marines get very slight CC team res.
If we would like this to be solved symmetrically:
-Hive gains very slight team res, CC gets the same.
Another symmetric although completely different (and I think pretty cool) approach:
There was an idea I had seen mentioned about allowing drifters/MACs to sit on an RT and collect small quantities of res. I actually really like this idea and adds use/importance to these entities without throwing off balance much (things like rfk, or teams having unconditional minimum res flow).
There is also the possibility of only MACs being capable of drawing res from RTs and hives slowly generating res to maintain some asymmetry.
Ironic, because what we are talking about is balancing the game.
We are talking about balance here. Two marines with shotguns res hunting is almost unstoppable. The harvester dies before you can react. Even with two skulks biting on an extractor, a marine usually has time to sprint there and kill them in time. Marine structures can also be healed basically for free (MACs), while aliens have to spend personal resources and a lot of time, to evolve to a gorge to heal things. Not exactly balanced IMHO.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Personal Resources ONLY<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Presumably, NurEinMensch is talking about other balance changes such as nerfing shotgun damage against structures. The problem is that minor changes like that doesn't solve the problem of what to do when you lose all of your harvesters and don't have another 15 TRes to rebuild. It merely decreases the frequency of that specific situation occurring.
I think that the shotgun should have a damage vs sturctures decrease. It currently does 200 damage against everything, this means that it is a good end game weapon and it shouldn't be. I think the shotgun should do only 100 damage vs structures (Still 200 vs units).
Sometimes. A harvester defended with 5+ hydra's, a crag for healing and good DI placement (to give plenty of warning of approaching marines) is a formidable challenge to 2-3 SG's. Creativity, ingenuity and adaption can make up for almost all of the so called 'balance' issues.
Commenting that an existing game play mechanic is over-powered indicates that you have stopped evolving you playing strategies. You are stuck in a fixed pattern and you want to change the game to conform to these patterns. Evolution is the name of the game. The best, most evolved and flexible strategy is the key.
If you keep losing harvesters to SG's rushes, perhaps it's a sign you are expanding too fast OR you need to put more emphasis on defense OR you need to configure you defenses in a more useful manner OR you need better awareness of what's happening on the map OR you need better communication within the team OR [insert one of hundreds of other strategy improvements]
A poor craftsman blames his tools for poor results, same situation with pretty much everything in life, including NS2. Evolve.
Sometimes. A harvester defended with 5+ hydra's, a crag for healing and good DI placement (to give plenty of warning of approaching marines) is a formidable challenge to 2-3 SG's. Creativity, ingenuity and adaption can make up for almost all of the so called 'balance' issues.
Commenting that an existing game play mechanic is over-powered indicates that you have stopped evolving you playing strategies. You are stuck in a fixed pattern and you want to change the game to conform to these patterns. Evolution is the name of the game. The best, most evolved and flexible strategy is the key.
If you keep losing harvesters to SG's rushes, perhaps it's a sign you are expanding too fast OR you need to put more emphasis on defense OR you need to configure you defenses in a more useful manner OR you need better awareness of what's happening on the map OR you need better communication within the team OR [insert one of hundreds of other strategy improvements]
A poor craftsman blames his tools for poor results, same situation with pretty much everything in life, including NS2. Evolve.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the same thing happened to the marines, I'd agree with you, but it is overwhelmingly an alien problem. Why should aliens need tons of hydras, extra DI, and better tactics to hold their res towers when marines do fine with noobies and no automated defenses? There is clearly a problem.
You don't understand.
You are stuck in a particular mind-set that see's problems. Problems don't exist in my world, I see opportunities for improving my skills and abilities.
You are assuming that the game needs to be fair and balanced and if it isn't then a 'problem' exists. The way I got REALLY good at playing CS (before NS existed) and NS1 was I ALWAYS joined the weakest team. Why? Because you can't grow your skills and abilities without them being challenged. The bigger the challenge the bigger the opportunity for improvement.
Unfortunately, improvement takes ALLOT of effort and time - it's mostly trial and error repeated many times over. People who complain about fairness and balance just want someone else to provide a solution to the challenge so they don't have to find one themselves. Basically, it's laziness, and it's what separates the good players from the great.
You don't understand.
You are stuck in a particular mind-set that see's problems. Problems don't exist in my world, I see opportunities for improving my skills and abilities.
You are assuming that the game needs to be fair and balanced and if it isn't then a 'problem' exists. The way I got REALLY good at playing CS (before NS existed) and NS1 was I ALWAYS joined the weakest team. Why? Because you can't grow your skills and abilities without them being challenged. The bigger the challenge the bigger the opportunity for improvement.
Unfortunately, improvement takes ALLOT of effort and time - it's mostly trial and error repeated many times over. People who complain about fairness and balance just want someone else to provide a solution to the challenge so they don't have to find one themselves. Basically, it's laziness, and it's what separates the good players from the great.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I understand the sentiment and do enjoy a good challenge on occasion, I get the impression that most of the NS2 playerbase will likely play this game casually. Sometimes I like to play games to relax. Requiring me to be at my best all the time just to have a hope of winning means I'll just play games other than NS2 when I want to relax. 'Balance' really means bringing down the skill requirement to a level consistent with the average gamer UWE is tailoring NS2 too. As you probably saw in CS, that doesn't mean you can't have very challenging matches against skilled opponents, but that every match doesn't have to be like that.
I don't want to dumb down the game, I just want each side to require the same amount of skill, though the skills needed will certainly be different.
crae, you can still be challenged by a balanced game if your opponents are skilled, and if it's balanced it will also be playable for all who demand a fair playing field (such as the competitive community), so balancing the game is invariably a good thing.
Hydras should become better in the next upcoming builds; like prediction.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Accounting for player velocity when hydras attack, so they attack where you'll be
(I forgot that offense chambers did this in NS1) #fb<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Problem solved, my friends.
You don't understand.
You are stuck in a particular mind-set that see's problems. Problems don't exist in my world, I see opportunities for improving my skills and abilities.
You are assuming that the game needs to be fair and balanced and if it isn't then a 'problem' exists. The way I got REALLY good at playing CS (before NS existed) and NS1 was I ALWAYS joined the weakest team. Why? Because you can't grow your skills and abilities without them being challenged. The bigger the challenge the bigger the opportunity for improvement.
Unfortunately, improvement takes ALLOT of effort and time - it's mostly trial and error repeated many times over. People who complain about fairness and balance just want someone else to provide a solution to the challenge so they don't have to find one themselves. Basically, it's laziness, and it's what separates the good players from the great.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No no, you don't understand. The point is to get the game balanced first, THEN let
<!--quoteo(post=1841477:date=Apr 18 2011, 05:11 PM:name=crae)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crae @ Apr 18 2011, 05:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1841477"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Creativity, ingenuity and adaption<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
be what decides between two seemingly asymmetric yet hopefully evenly matched teams. I think once the game features in place then strategy would be a more relevant topic.
Also we're all aware that different teams are suppose to have their weaknesses and strengths: range, stealth, speed or power to name a few, but something as fundamental as the ability to maintain resources should be of comparable effort to achieve.