<!--quoteo(post=1842311:date=Apr 25 2011, 06:28 PM:name=Obraxis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Obraxis @ Apr 25 2011, 06:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842311"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think we need to remember we have Pre-Ordered the game. 'NS2 Special Edition Pre-orderâ€' is in our emails. You pre-order a game in a store, you get a receipt. And that's it. You can pre-order games a year, sometimes years ahead of release at some stores. Again, all you get is a receipt.
With UWE, you get:
*An emailed reciept redeemable on Steam *Access to the game as it develops *Ability to steer the game and effect it's gameplay mechanics *Feature requests *Get to play the game EARLY before it's final shipping *And much more through being open with the community
If it were EA, or Valve, everything would be behind closed doors. They'd announce a game is coming, and that's it. You pretty much have no chance in playing it during the development stages, or affecting the game in any way. The Devs have final say, and that's final. Unlike UWE.
If there was no game forthcoming, and we couldn't actually play the thing, I would understand. But, the game is in fact playable. Yes you need a beast of a PC for high frame rates, but that's the nature of the game-dev beast. Performance will come in time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all I need to say I just pre-ordered the game as special edition because I loved NS 1, and wanted to say thank you (getting new game out of it was also a plus point ;D) . BUT I dont like how they showed us the game everything looked so polish and ready to play. I dont wanna say they made this intentionally to blind us, but I got the feeling they blinded the majority of the community with that.
Lets take the advertise Trailer as example there u see the Onos, after almost 2 years there is still no Onos. Now lets say someone first time saw that trailer thinks "Wow that beast is just amazing, I need this game so bad! ". I know nobody would actually buy an game for a cool looking creature ^^, just wanted to make my point clearly =)
I hope somebody understanded me sry for my English^^
Edit: I don't wanna sound too angry cuz I am NOT. I still love the game and you see where your money goes!. PS: this game will be freaking awesome when it's done! (and they really care about it so it will be done) ;D
STOP WHINING, seriusly if you dont understand the progress of game dev you need to STFU and read and educate yourselves. I posted this somewhere but what the hell I will do it again, there is this other game that is allso RTS/FPS hybrid called Nuclear Dawn the game is built on the source engine, couple of years ago they promised BETA after this no word from devs. Nothing happend then they "released" the game on steam 3 times and it got pulled back again long absence from devs and now they say we will ship the game at end of this year but we will cut some of the features in order to hit that release date mark in time. Later on "SOME" ended up being all the vehicles the game had. Now this companey is far bigger and has alot more people than UWE, I belive that they are better financed( not sure though ) and they are getting help from Valve ( read their blog ). Still they are charging less than 40$ they said ( price not set yet ) but it could be 39$ for all we know.
So what is my point(s) 1.Was SPARK a smart move --->YES 2.Are they doing good and quick job bringing us a new engine+tools+the game+all the open development stuff that is going on considering their resources, man power and all the bugs they keep running into ----> F*** YES 3.Do I still want to support them and give them my money ---->YES 4.DO they deserve our support ---->YES ( be honest how many times did you pay 50-60$ on a game that you later fully regretted because you felt that you got screwed amd ripped off by that companey )
People need to be more understanding and supportive, if things go wrong we might lose 20 or 40$ but they will lose everything they worked for for the past few years.
<!--quoteo(post=1842447:date=Apr 26 2011, 06:04 AM:name=rammaj)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rammaj @ Apr 26 2011, 06:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842447"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->be honest how many times did you pay 50-60$ on a game that you later fully regretted<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a third of the games in my steam library fall under this category.
<!--quoteo(post=1842452:date=Apr 26 2011, 05:04 AM:name=Tig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tig @ Apr 26 2011, 05:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842452"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->a third of the games in my steam library fall under this category.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not to mention the annoyance of paying 60 (pretty terrible that's still okay at all with no physical copy anyways) for a digital download only for the said game to suck...
<!--quoteo(post=1842447:date=Apr 26 2011, 11:04 AM:name=rammaj)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rammaj @ Apr 26 2011, 11:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842447"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->STOP WHINING, seriusly if you dont understand the progress of game dev you need to STFU and read and educate yourselves.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who would you say is whining and uneducated, and why?
Reference to Nuclear Dawn too is pretty bad. That game was started as a modification in the early 00'. As of 2009, Interwave studios took on a team based from a Stargate Source Mod, at the end of 2009, Nuclear Dawn had to start over from scratch. The majority of what you now see as Nuclear Dawn is the product of 13-15 months work. As far as I'm aware, Interwave haven't asked anyone to pay up front yet too. So I fail to see how and why this company and game fits in to what you're talking about here at UWE, who started work on NS2 (at earliest I can see)in 2007 and took funds in 2009 from customer and have had a completely different development cycle.
You may also find UWE is a lot larger in team size than you think, they have contractors doing some work for them iirc, they also have off-site guys including several level designers. I'm not 100% who and what they contract out, although from process of elimination it looks as though a larger team is working on the models/props/animations etc., as it seems unrealistic Cory being the art guy, could churn all of those out at such high quality on his own over the last 2 years. If he has well, congratulations, that's remarkable work; if not, you'll find the UWE team opens up to a much larger team than "educated" to at current. Maybe it'd be nice to see a dev post one day saying who and what exactly makes what, you'll be surprised how many people can be involved on a game, even if you find there are only about 3 or 4 devs that do actively reply to posts or listed on the team page.
In reference to further points,
Spark was a smart move? Why do you believe this so, I'd quite like a discussion with the pros from someone educated enough to go over it in a great amount of detail?
You think they're doing a great job? Everyone is entitled to their opinion and it's nice you still support them, I don't think anyone doesn't support them in their goal. We all support the goal.
<!--quoteo(post=1842461:date=Apr 26 2011, 01:58 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Apr 26 2011, 01:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842461"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You may also find UWE is a lot larger in team size than you think, they have contractors doing some work for them iirc, they also have off-site guys including several level designers. I'm not 100% who and what they contract out, although from process of elimination it looks as though a larger team is working on the models/props/animations etc., as it seems unrealistic Cory being the art guy, could churn all of those out at such high quality on his own over the last 2 years. If he has well, congratulations, that's remarkable work; if not, you'll find the UWE team opens up to a much larger team than "educated" to at current. Maybe it'd be nice to see a dev post one day saying who and what exactly makes what, you'll be surprised how many people can be involved on a game, even if you find there are only about 3 or 4 devs that do actively reply to posts or listed on the team page.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've listed out the larger team on here before, (and you can see most of the names on the Targetball sign up sheet that is on some of the bulletin boards in game) but since there've been some changeover, here it is again: In the office currently there is: Charlie "Flayra"- Game Director Max "Max"- Technical Director Me "Squeal Like A Pig"--Art director (no I don't do much in the way of creation of in game assets, other then some UI stuff and a few small things here and there. I do all the concept art and oversee the artists creating the models, and oversee the map creation and animation, and general art vision) Brian Cummings "Chops"- Technical Artist Brian Cronin "MurphyIdiot" - Programmer Andrew - New Programmer who just started working. At the moment offsite, but will be moving onsite in about a month.
Offsite fulltime and part time employees and team members: Bill - Environment Artist. Basically any level texture and prop you see in the maps, he made Oli "Dux" - Level Designer on "Docking" map and also "Rockdown" Michael - Level Designer on "Tram" and support on some of the other maps. Marc "SgtBarlow" - UW team member but not currently an employee but he is the level designer on "Mineshaft" Andrew Jones "Insane" - Also team member but not a UW employee, he's the level designer of "Refining" map Simon - Sound guy Colin - Rigger and Animator Igede - Animator Steven - Animator
We've also contracted with several outsourcers for a lot of the gameplay models.
<!--quoteo(post=1842447:date=Apr 26 2011, 12:04 PM:name=rammaj)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rammaj @ Apr 26 2011, 12:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842447"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->STOP WHINING, seriusly if you dont understand the progress of game dev you need to STFU and read and educate yourselves. I posted this somewhere but what the hell I will do it again, there is this other game that is allso RTS/FPS hybrid called Nuclear Dawn the game is built on the source engine, couple of years ago they promised BETA after this no word from devs. etc<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nothing, I am not even sure if they took preorders havnt looked into that. it might have been a bad example but I hope people got what I was trying to say.
<!--quoteo(post=1842524:date=Apr 26 2011, 06:00 PM:name=rammaj)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rammaj @ Apr 26 2011, 06:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842524"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nothing, I am not even sure if they took preorders havnt looked into that. it might have been a bad example but I hope people got what I was trying to say.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you were trying to prove my point of a fool ranting because not everyone just blindly supports UWE then yes, I totally got what you were saying.
Honestly, I'd prefer everyone to keep their opinions to themselves. If you're upset about the time get a refund and come back if/when NS2 releases or, if visiting these forums has become a habit, just stay in off topic. If you want to support UWE go for it. When you see someone asking for a refund direct them to the proper e-mail and let the thread die.
Kind of tired of every post being about this same crap.
Some of you cant differentiate between feedback and trolling, nobody blindly supports uwe - but some of us understand that, spiting in their coffee daily doesnt help them or us...
<!--quoteo(post=1842359:date=Apr 25 2011, 03:29 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Apr 25 2011, 03:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842359"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...sure makes us not want to put out any more dates.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good! My biggest criticism of UWE thus far is their public announcements (including FB/Twitter posts) which, many times, skewed fan expectations. For instance, did they need to announce NS2 going to Beta? I would argue not; especially considering how poor shape the game was in at that time. Other times I would see FB/Twitter posts claiming that this or that increased performance dramatically in-house but when it gets pushed out to Steam that would not appear to be the case. (Granted, this trend seems to be turning around as the game progresses.)
I'm all for open communication but UWE's brand of "advertising" shall we say, has been somewhat unprofessional. UWE may not be be on par with the big boys as far as funding and staffing is concerned, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't enforce some PR standards which might keep hype and reality more in line with each other.
All that being said, I'm glad I contributed to this project. I consider it payment for all the fun I had in NS1. However, I am losing interest in NS2 and I can't imagine the playerbase being substantial by the time NS2 finally rolls out. Hopefully, I'm just getting the wrong impression.
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
For people that feel the same way as you, i would advice to just not play ns2 until the beta is over. The game progresses very much betwen each patch, and one can now clearly see that they will be able to release a good polished final version.
But i agree that playing a not finished game, might remove some fun and excitement about it. Its a little like watching a movie where you have seen the making off already. But i'm sure you will love it when you return on the final release day :)
I paid for my special edition and i haven't regretted it since. I've played many of the AAA developers 'beta' software but it was never the kind of beta i wanted to see. Playing NS2 and seeing it progress is exactly the kind of thing I wanted, i love seeing the progression and how things are handled. Especially because I'm studying video game development at my college. Seeing things like -beta- flamethrower damage reduced sniper rifle damage increased gunner run speed slightly decreased -release- doesn't cut it to be a beta. That's modifying a notepad as far as i care.
<!--quoteo(post=1842461:date=Apr 26 2011, 11:58 AM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Apr 26 2011, 11:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842461"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Spark was a smart move? Why do you believe this so, I'd quite like a discussion with the pros from someone educated enough to go over it in a great amount of detail?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are lots of problems with Source, one of them being licensing costs, as they wanted to sell the game, to be able to put more effort into it, it wasn't really feasible to pay licensing costs for something that they could do again. Also, there are a lot of features in Source that aren't really necessary for NS2. Like rigid-body physics, as the levels aren't littered with debris like HL2 etc, and I don't think it would fit properly with the mood. Source was also quite an old engine when the game started development, and it really started to restrict the dev team and was making it harder to progress than before.
That's not to say that if they'd kept with Source that we'd be where we are now. We'd probably have a game, but it wouldn't be all that NS2 could be, and all that NS2 will be.
This whining (that never seems to go away on this forum) is utterly pointless...
Don't get me wrong; those of you whose expectations have not been met are justifiably upset. Your expectations weren't met, and anger and/or frustration are completely legitimate reactions to disappointment.
However, continuing to ###### and whine about it FROM WITHIN THE COMMUNITY is, in my own humble opinion, just about the largest waste of time that I can think of. Here's a short list of other, more productive things you could have been doing:
<ul><li>Fixing it yourself - Developing your own Mod; Requesting a refund (which the devs are more than understanding about).</li><li>Fixing yourself - <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Learning to not develop unreasonable expectations, or expectations in general.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li><li>#$%ing yourself - Our predecessors have been doing it for centuries!</li></ul>
Hello UWE // Cory, I played NS 1 in the very very early days and for a long time after that. I was semi-early (though not early enough to get black armor) in getting NS 2. I'm usually a silent observer that just pop onto these forums now and again a few times a week to read whats going on. I have many things I'd like to say about the game, good and bad..however thats not the point. I do agree with the one who said that pissing in your coffee each and every day isn't helpful.
Do I think people should stop complaining? No not at all. I also agree that reasonable people don't like expectations not to be met, and promises to be broken, especially if it involved an investment, however in the spirit of fraternity - myself attempting to start up my own game company as the CEO with 7 people involved called Tophat Interactive (dont worry we're not competing with you on the PC market..we're doing android stuff) - I would like to offer my help, freely, for a few hours a week as a professional Quality Assurance Tester, having worked for companies like CCP (creators of EVE Online) and StarVault (creators of Mortal Online), if UWE is interested. I know this grand community is an excellent resource for a massive amount of testing and they should be credited accordingly, it isn't always focused or organized though or creating proper bug reports. I can though..create bug reports that is, and I know how to work with a development studio...As I said. This is an offer to do a bit of work for a few hours a week, for free.
This is my poor attempt at being constructive and putting my money where my mouth is. I leave the decision up to you :) If not, I shall leave you to it and wish you the best. You've come a long way and I'm sure this will all turn out great ^_^
It's good that the devs respond on the forums with what is coming up in their next patch. example (http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113540) :}
People need to stop comparing different games to NS as the situations are different no matter how they try to make their argument relevant.
Anyone clicking the 'buy now' button should have realised that their money is an investment for the development of a sequel to a game they enjoyed.
As with any investment, you take the chance it might pay back dividends or be written off.
I am suprised to hear UWE paid back the monies to individuals who wanted to withdraw their support, but that's not the issue here.
NS is still being developed, which inherently means that there are issues currently with it that could make gameplay undesirable.
These issues can not be fixed overnight, or even in a week. It takes time to create a product that is even playable.
What the team needs is constructive feedback and suggestions/thoughts on what they present to us.
What they don't need are 'fans' of NS to flog the horse and express their displeasure on how their perceptions of when the game would be ready to play were not met and justify why they are unhappy. Pretty sure UWE realise if a deadline is not met then alot of their investors are unhappy, so they are constantly under the pump.
If you are unhappy then don't support them when they eventually complete and release NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1848444:date=May 26 2011, 12:55 AM:name=Ares550)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ares550 @ May 26 2011, 12:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1848444"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Minecraft was super-playable in alpha and that was a one man team, excuses?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Minecraft, as good as it is, is also something that everyone with some good coding experience can put together in a couple of weeks, at least the core of it. Making a Minecraft clone is actually a good game programming exercise.
<!--quoteo(post=1848483:date=May 26 2011, 11:20 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ May 26 2011, 11:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1848483"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Minecraft, as good as it is, is also something that everyone with some good coding experience can put together in a couple of weeks, at least the core of it. Making a Minecraft clone is actually a good game programming exercise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Next to that Minecraft had a horrible performance (measured on what it does) over long stretches of Alpha and still isn't know to be very ressource efficent.
<!--quoteo(post=1848465:date=May 26 2011, 07:11 AM:name=SilverAx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SilverAx @ May 26 2011, 07:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1848465"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyone clicking the 'buy now' button should have realised that their money is an investment for the development of a sequel to a game they enjoyed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nonsense. What a complete bull###### argument this is and has been popping up more frequently on these forums. People pre-order this because they are certain they'll have a blast playing it, and because of UWE's indie status, to also help them finance it a bit ("a bit" being the key-phrase here, noone expected them to be so rediculously dependent on these orders to the point of fabricating a beta).
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=SilverAx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SilverAx)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As with any investment, you take the chance it might pay back dividends or be written off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yea well like I said, we're talking about a ###### game here. I just hope you're not implying this game might go belly-up and that we're supposed to take it in stride...
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=SilverAx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SilverAx)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am suprised to hear UWE paid back the monies to individuals who wanted to withdraw their support, but that's not the issue here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not. Arguably what I ordered (back in July) wasn't really in alpha-shape, but that's debatable. The folks who ordered the beta however, certainly haven't been getting what they were promised (a feature-complete game that is running within reasonable margins), so it's perfectly fitting they recieve a refund if they so desire.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=SilverAx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SilverAx)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What the team needs is constructive feedback and suggestions/thoughts on what they present to us.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, they've been a bit selective on the feedback they listen to. Personally I'd say (and many others with me probably): do a feature-stop, and focus entirely on performance\stability the coming few builds. And don't say the Lua-scripters won't have anything to do, because Matso proved their script isn't up to scratch performance-wise, so now is a time to improve it.
<!--QuoteBegin-'SilverAx'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ('SilverAx')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What they don't need are 'fans' of NS to flog the horse and express their displeasure on how their perceptions of when the game would be ready to play were not met and justify why they are unhappy. Pretty sure UWE realise if a deadline is not met then alot of their investors are unhappy, so they are constantly under the pump.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The only reason I ever bring it up is in response to people spouting blatant nonsense. Not saying there are problems is 1 thing, but outright try and deny them is quite another, and I cannot help myself in such cases. I also like how you put fans in apostrophes, somehow implying that people who haven't their head up their arse somehow aren't really fans...
<!--QuoteBegin-'SilverAx'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ('SilverAx')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you are unhappy then don't support them when they eventually complete and release NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The two aren't mutually exclusive.
<!--QuoteBegin-'assbda'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ('assbda')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->yeah seriously if i was one of the ns designers id prolly be saying "why the f**k did we release this beta".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> To put it bluntly: because you ran out of dough.
damn! a lot of complaining here. all I can say is: "keep up the good work UWE!" I love that we get informed on a regular basis what's going on. (The bugtracker is especially nice) I bought the game when it was alpha and the difference is <b>huge</b>! I have been in several alphas/beta and this one looks good, seeing it's still in a quite early beta stage.
Most betas that I have been in have lasted for 1-2 years, so comparing this with some random open beta isn't really fair. Open betas are mainly for stress-testing the game after the closed beta stage is over. Right now NS2 is in closed beta.
<!--quoteo(post=1848486:date=May 26 2011, 04:41 AM:name=gorge.ous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gorge.ous @ May 26 2011, 04:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1848486"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Next to that Minecraft had a horrible performance (measured on what it does) over long stretches of Alpha and still isn't know to be very ressource efficent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Minecraft performance got better with time. More people played with every patch. I see fewer and fewer people playing ns2 with each patch, you can only have so many letdowns.
You miss the part where NS2 also gets better with each patch.
I like Minecraft, but one can't really compare the two. it's like saying that the Minesweeper clone I made while I still learned how to program, is better because I did it alone and it had no bugs after only 1 week of development!
Minecraft was unplayable for along time in SMP, and it's only a few days ago that he fixed nether for multiplayer. (and maybe I should mention how the latest ) It only started to get good for real once he got his company working and the whole team got involved.
Of course it gets better with each patch, I'd be seriously worried if a professional dev-team would be making it worse each iteration. The real point is that progress is pretty slow (in the grand scheme of things) in terms of performance & stability. Each patch the players come out of the woodwork under the assumption significant progress has been made in these areas, but often leave disappointed. I don't mind the absence of the Exo or the jetpacks, and I could live with the fact that the onos is invisible, but shoddy FPS, stuttering, lag, warping and CTDs really do my (and others') head in. Also, the fact that mappers now appear to have to hack their way around a non-functional occlusion-culler (manual placement of visibility-blockers) doesn't get my hopes up...
Firstly, comparing Minecraft to this is like comparing a Gameboy with a Wii.
Secondly, they can't eat thin air. They all need money, not just for the company, but so they can actually keep alive.
If it was any other way, the game would not be being developed. Or it would be carried out under funding and control from third parties, which would mean they couldn't sculpt this game into exactly what you all want and demand on these forums every day.
Business doesn't really care about your pleasure, it cares about return because it has to survive and grow.
Feel lucky that this is being done by a passionate group who love games. Just go play something else for a while, and keep this on the back burner - there are plenty of online games out there, a lot of which are free.
Comments
I honestly think charlie forgot his roots, referring to everything ns1 was about.
With UWE, you get:
*An emailed reciept redeemable on Steam
*Access to the game as it develops
*Ability to steer the game and effect it's gameplay mechanics
*Feature requests
*Get to play the game EARLY before it's final shipping
*And much more through being open with the community
If it were EA, or Valve, everything would be behind closed doors. They'd announce a game is coming, and that's it. You pretty much have no chance in playing it during the development stages, or affecting the game in any way. The Devs have final say, and that's final. Unlike UWE.
If there was no game forthcoming, and we couldn't actually play the thing, I would understand. But, the game is in fact playable. Yes you need a beast of a PC for high frame rates, but that's the nature of the game-dev beast. Performance will come in time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all I need to say I just pre-ordered the game as special edition because I loved NS 1, and wanted to say thank you (getting new game out of it was also a plus point ;D) .
BUT I dont like how they showed us the game everything looked so polish and ready to play. I dont wanna say they made this intentionally to blind us, but I got the feeling they blinded the majority of the community with that.
Lets take the advertise Trailer as example there u see the Onos, after almost 2 years there is still no Onos. Now lets say someone first time saw that trailer thinks "Wow that beast is just amazing, I need this game so bad! ". I know nobody would actually buy an game for a cool looking creature ^^, just wanted to make my point clearly =)
I hope somebody understanded me sry for my English^^
Edit: I don't wanna sound too angry cuz I am NOT. I still love the game and you see where your money goes!.
PS: this game will be freaking awesome when it's done! (and they really care about it so it will be done) ;D
I posted this somewhere but what the hell I will do it again, there is this other game that is allso RTS/FPS hybrid called Nuclear Dawn the game is built on the source engine, couple of years ago they promised BETA after this no word from devs. Nothing happend then they "released" the game on steam 3 times and it got pulled back again long absence from devs and now they say we will ship the game at end of this year but we will cut some of the features in order to hit that release date mark in time. Later on "SOME" ended up being all the vehicles the game had. Now this companey is far bigger and has alot more people than UWE, I belive that they are better financed( not sure though ) and they are getting help from Valve ( read their blog ).
Still they are charging less than 40$ they said ( price not set yet ) but it could be 39$ for all we know.
So what is my point(s)
1.Was SPARK a smart move --->YES
2.Are they doing good and quick job bringing us a new engine+tools+the game+all the open development stuff that is going on considering their resources, man power and all the bugs they keep running into ----> F*** YES
3.Do I still want to support them and give them my money ---->YES
4.DO they deserve our support ---->YES ( be honest how many times did you pay 50-60$ on a game that you later fully regretted because you felt that you got screwed amd ripped off by that companey )
People need to be more understanding and supportive, if things go wrong we might lose 20 or 40$ but they will lose everything they worked for for the past few years.
a third of the games in my steam library fall under this category.
Not to mention the annoyance of paying 60 (pretty terrible that's still okay at all with no physical copy anyways) for a digital download only for the said game to suck...
Who would you say is whining and uneducated, and why?
Reference to Nuclear Dawn too is pretty bad. That game was started as a modification in the early 00'. As of 2009, Interwave studios took on a team based from a Stargate Source Mod, at the end of 2009, Nuclear Dawn had to start over from scratch. The majority of what you now see as Nuclear Dawn is the product of 13-15 months work. As far as I'm aware, Interwave haven't asked anyone to pay up front yet too. So I fail to see how and why this company and game fits in to what you're talking about here at UWE, who started work on NS2 (at earliest I can see)in 2007 and took funds in 2009 from customer and have had a completely different development cycle.
You may also find UWE is a lot larger in team size than you think, they have contractors doing some work for them iirc, they also have off-site guys including several level designers. I'm not 100% who and what they contract out, although from process of elimination it looks as though a larger team is working on the models/props/animations etc., as it seems unrealistic Cory being the art guy, could churn all of those out at such high quality on his own over the last 2 years. If he has well, congratulations, that's remarkable work; if not, you'll find the UWE team opens up to a much larger team than "educated" to at current. Maybe it'd be nice to see a dev post one day saying who and what exactly makes what, you'll be surprised how many people can be involved on a game, even if you find there are only about 3 or 4 devs that do actively reply to posts or listed on the team page.
In reference to further points,
Spark was a smart move? Why do you believe this so, I'd quite like a discussion with the pros from someone educated enough to go over it in a great amount of detail?
You think they're doing a great job? Everyone is entitled to their opinion and it's nice you still support them, I don't think anyone doesn't support them in their goal. We all support the goal.
I've listed out the larger team on here before, (and you can see most of the names on the Targetball sign up sheet that is on some of the bulletin boards in game) but since there've been some changeover, here it is again:
In the office currently there is:
Charlie "Flayra"- Game Director
Max "Max"- Technical Director
Me "Squeal Like A Pig"--Art director (no I don't do much in the way of creation of in game assets, other then some UI stuff and a few small things here and there. I do all the concept art and oversee the artists creating the models, and oversee the map creation and animation, and general art vision)
Brian Cummings "Chops"- Technical Artist
Brian Cronin "MurphyIdiot" - Programmer
Andrew - New Programmer who just started working. At the moment offsite, but will be moving onsite in about a month.
Offsite fulltime and part time employees and team members:
Bill - Environment Artist. Basically any level texture and prop you see in the maps, he made
Oli "Dux" - Level Designer on "Docking" map and also "Rockdown"
Michael - Level Designer on "Tram" and support on some of the other maps.
Marc "SgtBarlow" - UW team member but not currently an employee but he is the level designer on "Mineshaft"
Andrew Jones "Insane" - Also team member but not a UW employee, he's the level designer of "Refining" map
Simon - Sound guy
Colin - Rigger and Animator
Igede - Animator
Steven - Animator
We've also contracted with several outsourcers for a lot of the gameplay models.
--Cory
I posted this somewhere but what the hell I will do it again, there is this other game that is allso RTS/FPS hybrid called Nuclear Dawn the game is built on the source engine, couple of years ago they promised BETA after this no word from devs. etc<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How much did you pay for ND?
If you were trying to prove my point of a fool ranting because not everyone just blindly supports UWE then yes, I totally got what you were saying.
Honestly, I'd prefer everyone to keep their opinions to themselves. If you're upset about the time get a refund and come back if/when NS2 releases or, if visiting these forums has become a habit, just stay in off topic. If you want to support UWE go for it. When you see someone asking for a refund direct them to the proper e-mail and let the thread die.
Kind of tired of every post being about this same crap.
Good! My biggest criticism of UWE thus far is their public announcements (including FB/Twitter posts) which, many times, skewed fan expectations. For instance, did they need to announce NS2 going to Beta? I would argue not; especially considering how poor shape the game was in at that time. Other times I would see FB/Twitter posts claiming that this or that increased performance dramatically in-house but when it gets pushed out to Steam that would not appear to be the case. (Granted, this trend seems to be turning around as the game progresses.)
I'm all for open communication but UWE's brand of "advertising" shall we say, has been somewhat unprofessional. UWE may not be be on par with the big boys as far as funding and staffing is concerned, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't enforce some PR standards which might keep hype and reality more in line with each other.
All that being said, I'm glad I contributed to this project. I consider it payment for all the fun I had in NS1. However, I am losing interest in NS2 and I can't imagine the playerbase being substantial by the time NS2 finally rolls out. Hopefully, I'm just getting the wrong impression.
The game progresses very much betwen each patch, and one can now clearly see that they will be able to release a good polished final version.
But i agree that playing a not finished game, might remove some fun and excitement about it. Its a little like watching a movie where you have seen the making off already.
But i'm sure you will love it when you return on the final release day :)
Seeing things like
-beta-
flamethrower damage reduced
sniper rifle damage increased
gunner run speed slightly decreased
-release-
doesn't cut it to be a beta. That's modifying a notepad as far as i care.
There are lots of problems with Source, one of them being licensing costs, as they wanted to sell the game, to be able to put more effort into it, it wasn't really feasible to pay licensing costs for something that they could do again. Also, there are a lot of features in Source that aren't really necessary for NS2. Like rigid-body physics, as the levels aren't littered with debris like HL2 etc, and I don't think it would fit properly with the mood. Source was also quite an old engine when the game started development, and it really started to restrict the dev team and was making it harder to progress than before.
That's not to say that if they'd kept with Source that we'd be where we are now. We'd probably have a game, but it wouldn't be all that NS2 could be, and all that NS2 will be.
Don't get me wrong; those of you whose expectations have not been met are justifiably upset. Your expectations weren't met, and anger and/or frustration are completely legitimate reactions to disappointment.
However, continuing to ###### and whine about it FROM WITHIN THE COMMUNITY is, in my own humble opinion, just about the largest waste of time that I can think of. Here's a short list of other, more productive things you could have been doing:
<ul><li>Fixing it yourself - Developing your own Mod; Requesting a refund (which the devs are more than understanding about).</li><li>Fixing yourself - <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Learning to not develop unreasonable expectations, or expectations in general.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li><li>#$%ing yourself - Our predecessors have been doing it for centuries!</li></ul>
I have many things I'd like to say about the game, good and bad..however thats not the point. I do agree with the one who said that pissing in your coffee each and every day isn't helpful.
Do I think people should stop complaining? No not at all. I also agree that reasonable people don't like expectations not to be met, and promises to be broken, especially if it involved an investment, however in the spirit of fraternity - myself attempting to start up my own game company as the CEO with 7 people involved called Tophat Interactive (dont worry we're not competing with you on the PC market..we're doing android stuff) - I would like to offer my help, freely, for a few hours a week as a professional Quality Assurance Tester, having worked for companies like CCP (creators of EVE Online) and StarVault (creators of Mortal Online), if UWE is interested.
I know this grand community is an excellent resource for a massive amount of testing and they should be credited accordingly, it isn't always focused or organized though or creating proper bug reports.
I can though..create bug reports that is, and I know how to work with a development studio...As I said. This is an offer to do a bit of work for a few hours a week, for free.
This is my poor attempt at being constructive and putting my money where my mouth is. I leave the decision up to you :)
If not, I shall leave you to it and wish you the best. You've come a long way and I'm sure this will all turn out great ^_^
Best regards
- DrDopehat (drhat ingame) aka. Jake
example (http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113540)
:}
Anyone clicking the 'buy now' button should have realised that their money is an investment for the development of a sequel to a game they enjoyed.
As with any investment, you take the chance it might pay back dividends or be written off.
I am suprised to hear UWE paid back the monies to individuals who wanted to withdraw their support, but that's not the issue here.
NS is still being developed, which inherently means that there are issues currently with it that could make gameplay undesirable.
These issues can not be fixed overnight, or even in a week. It takes time to create a product that is even playable.
What the team needs is constructive feedback and suggestions/thoughts on what they present to us.
What they don't need are 'fans' of NS to flog the horse and express their displeasure on how their perceptions of when the game would be ready to play were not met and justify why they are unhappy. Pretty sure UWE realise if a deadline is not met then alot of their investors are unhappy, so they are constantly under the pump.
If you are unhappy then don't support them when they eventually complete and release NS2.
So much complaining from lesser mortals
Minecraft, as good as it is, is also something that everyone with some good coding experience can put together in a couple of weeks, at least the core of it. Making a Minecraft clone is actually a good game programming exercise.
Next to that Minecraft had a horrible performance (measured on what it does) over long stretches of Alpha and still isn't know to be very ressource efficent.
Nonsense. What a complete bull###### argument this is and has been popping up more frequently on these forums. People pre-order this because they are certain they'll have a blast playing it, and because of UWE's indie status, to also help them finance it a bit ("a bit" being the key-phrase here, noone expected them to be so rediculously dependent on these orders to the point of fabricating a beta).
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=SilverAx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SilverAx)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As with any investment, you take the chance it might pay back dividends or be written off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea well like I said, we're talking about a ###### game here. I just hope you're not implying this game might go belly-up and that we're supposed to take it in stride...
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=SilverAx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SilverAx)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am suprised to hear UWE paid back the monies to individuals who wanted to withdraw their support, but that's not the issue here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not. Arguably what I ordered (back in July) wasn't really in alpha-shape, but that's debatable. The folks who ordered the beta however, certainly haven't been getting what they were promised (a feature-complete game that is running within reasonable margins), so it's perfectly fitting they recieve a refund if they so desire.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=SilverAx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SilverAx)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What the team needs is constructive feedback and suggestions/thoughts on what they present to us.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, they've been a bit selective on the feedback they listen to. Personally I'd say (and many others with me probably): do a feature-stop, and focus entirely on performance\stability the coming few builds. And don't say the Lua-scripters won't have anything to do, because Matso proved their script isn't up to scratch performance-wise, so now is a time to improve it.
<!--QuoteBegin-'SilverAx'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ('SilverAx')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What they don't need are 'fans' of NS to flog the horse and express their displeasure on how their perceptions of when the game would be ready to play were not met and justify why they are unhappy. Pretty sure UWE realise if a deadline is not met then alot of their investors are unhappy, so they are constantly under the pump.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only reason I ever bring it up is in response to people spouting blatant nonsense. Not saying there are problems is 1 thing, but outright try and deny them is quite another, and I cannot help myself in such cases. I also like how you put fans in apostrophes, somehow implying that people who haven't their head up their arse somehow aren't really fans...
<!--QuoteBegin-'SilverAx'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ('SilverAx')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you are unhappy then don't support them when they eventually complete and release NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The two aren't mutually exclusive.
<!--QuoteBegin-'assbda'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ('assbda')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->yeah seriously if i was one of the ns designers id prolly be saying "why the f**k did we release this beta".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To put it bluntly: because you ran out of dough.
all I can say is: "keep up the good work UWE!"
I love that we get informed on a regular basis what's going on. (The bugtracker is especially nice)
I bought the game when it was alpha and the difference is <b>huge</b>! I have been in several alphas/beta and this one looks good, seeing it's still in a quite early beta stage.
Most betas that I have been in have lasted for 1-2 years, so comparing this with some random open beta isn't really fair. Open betas are mainly for stress-testing the game
after the closed beta stage is over. Right now NS2 is in closed beta.
Minecraft performance got better with time. More people played with every patch.
I see fewer and fewer people playing ns2 with each patch, you can only have so many letdowns.
I like Minecraft, but one can't really compare the two. it's like saying that the Minesweeper clone I made while I still learned how to program,
is better because I did it alone and it had no bugs after only 1 week of development!
Minecraft was unplayable for along time in SMP, and it's only a few days ago that he fixed nether for multiplayer. (and maybe I should mention how the latest )
It only started to get good for real once he got his company working and the whole team got involved.
Secondly, they can't eat thin air. They all need money, not just for the company, but so they can actually keep alive.
If it was any other way, the game would not be being developed. Or it would be carried out under funding and control from third parties, which would mean they couldn't sculpt this game into exactly what you all want and demand on these forums every day.
Business doesn't really care about your pleasure, it cares about return because it has to survive and grow.
Feel lucky that this is being done by a passionate group who love games. Just go play something else for a while, and keep this on the back burner - there are plenty of online games out there, a lot of which are free.