Marine Openers
Hugh
CameramanSan Francisco, CA Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
CameramanSan Francisco, CA Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
<div class="IPBDescription">Throw me a bone here lads</div>Hi everyone!
The biggest problem with running NS2HD is disguising the fact that I'm a crap NS2 player. This gets especially hard when I make tutorials. It's not quite the blind leading the blind, but there's some serious visual impairment happening.
You might have seen video [171], and in a few minutes [172] will be up. Both are simple alien commander tutorials dealing with the first four minutes of a new game. [171] is conservative, and [172] is aggressive. I made the aggressive opener based on comment feedback on [171]. This is my favourite kind of feedback, and helps me create better videos.
The aim of these tutorials is two fold: 1. To help out players new to NS2, those poor newbies who find the idea of commanding. 2. To spark discussion about beta tactics among the more experienced players.
Obviously, with the Beta changing so rapidly, these videos are outdated almost as soon as they are up. But if they prove popular I might start rolling them over every two weeks as new features are added.
Now I want to do a marine opener, but I've got no idea. Help! Can we get a discussion going regarding a conservative and aggressive marine opener? Just the first four minutes of the game. If you are marine commander, what is the very first thing you drop when you get in the chair?
The biggest problem with running NS2HD is disguising the fact that I'm a crap NS2 player. This gets especially hard when I make tutorials. It's not quite the blind leading the blind, but there's some serious visual impairment happening.
You might have seen video [171], and in a few minutes [172] will be up. Both are simple alien commander tutorials dealing with the first four minutes of a new game. [171] is conservative, and [172] is aggressive. I made the aggressive opener based on comment feedback on [171]. This is my favourite kind of feedback, and helps me create better videos.
The aim of these tutorials is two fold: 1. To help out players new to NS2, those poor newbies who find the idea of commanding. 2. To spark discussion about beta tactics among the more experienced players.
Obviously, with the Beta changing so rapidly, these videos are outdated almost as soon as they are up. But if they prove popular I might start rolling them over every two weeks as new features are added.
Now I want to do a marine opener, but I've got no idea. Help! Can we get a discussion going regarding a conservative and aggressive marine opener? Just the first four minutes of the game. If you are marine commander, what is the very first thing you drop when you get in the chair?
Comments
Haters gonna hate.
Probably survivability tips?
1. MAC
2. Send MAC (and any marines who will follow the order) to build a 2nd CC
3. Upgrade 1st CC
4. Spawn a MAC from the 2nd CC, then recycle
5. Drop the 2nd RT, have the 2 MACs + marine(s) build it
6. Drop an armory, have the 2 MACs + marines(s) build it
7. Research shotgun
8. Spawn as many MACs from the now upgraded 1st and place all MACs out of the way
9. Then I tech up as fast as possible to flamethrower (advanced armory, weapons module, flamethrower)
My aggressive build order is similar to my conservative build order, but I usually add two more RTs before I start my tech up to flamethrower. After that, you can pretty much do whatever you want, but I generally go 2nd IP, armor 1, and grenade launcher pretty fast too. However, the key is getting flamethrower ASAP because its the only effective means to remove DI. If you don't have it before aliens start spamming marine start with DI, you're pretty much screwed.
Also, the hardest part of comming marines right now is keeping your IP alive. Skulk rushing the IP is highly effective. What I like to do is when I see a skulk start chomping on the IP, I send a sacrificial MAC to start repairing it, so I have enough time to logout and shotgun the distracted skulk.
Edit: Also, check out <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=112884&hl=build+order" target="_blank">this thread</a> I started about marine/alien build orders. Its a bit old, but still relevant IMO.
I like to send a mac (or if possible rine), to build a second cc, then i drop an armory and hop out of cc to build it myself (I wont do much good while waiting for the cc to finish anyway).
Once the armory is done, I enter the cc again, send a mac to observation to build an extractor, and here is where my tactics varies.
Sometimes I get t2 instantly, and then recycle the cc to afford a new extractor or sg (or armor if ppl prefer, I usually ask). I suppose this is my "aggressive" strategy.
Other times I wait with t2, and instead get shottys (or armor) instantly, and later on a new extractor. After I got some resources and think I dont need anything else asap, I get t2, but keep the cc, to later on make a second base there (usually win before that tho D:). This is my "conservative" strategy i guess.
In both strategys, there is usually a lot of running around to kill skulks trying to ninja my stuff, and sending macs as scouts to see where aliens built and what I can tell my rines to ninja. I also often keep one near my structures so that I see when im under attack (the notification seems dodgy to me, so I have to keep an eye on minimap, but structures dont reveal enemies :P)
Generally though I find getting another CC and as much carbon as possible is key. Marines need to build an awful lot of stuff, aliens only need hives and extractors, 40c for 2 hives, 30c for two extra extractors, and they are very nearly done for the game, everything else is entirely optional although crags for heals and whips for attack upgrades are helpful. Oh and hive mass might be required for fades, not sure, although lerks are the better class so I wouldn't worry too much.
Marines on the other hand absolutely NEED 20 for a second CC, 15 for an armory, 30 for two extractors, 15 to research shotguns, 20 for a sentry gun to protect the IP, another 20 for a second IP if you're smart, probably 15 for another armory to help hold the second base, especially if you put your second IP there, I think another 30 for second tier armory, and second tier command chair, another 15 or so for a second gun unlock, and so on. To say nothing of the need to replace lost guns and suchlike.
Marines EAT resources, securing as many resources as you can is key to marine success, and also horribly difficult because aliens have a habit of spreading infestation all over the damn place and blocking your placements. This also ignores the tendency of marin structures to die if you look at them funny. Skulks can easily run round the map blowing up all your crap, and your players will be busy just trying to hold what you have, let alone push forward.
My best advice would be keep focussed, marines have really bad mobility, so if you are going to gain any ground you need to keep your ###### together, literally. Keep as close to your starting base as possible or move somewhere where you can build a lot of stuff close together, it's the only way you can defend, and you will need to defend because aliens have a habit of attacking bases. Secure extractors near your base and try to build your second base close to it, or close to a lot of resources. Also keep away from alien hives because infestation will basically shut down a base and there is no practical way to fight it, if you are going to win you need to do so in the first 10 minutes, or you need to be really lucky/rush a hive and hope it kills the infestation.
Really if you can't win as marines reliably in this build, don't worry, it's because they suck. Aliens get better everything. Including ranged weapons ironically, what with the lerk coming equipped with essentially an instant hit grenade launcher/sniper rifle combo.
And being able to fly.
And being available from the start.
As I can't resist a suggestion, bump hive costs up to say 60-70 res, as it costs 55 res for a marine equivalent to a hive, and marines have to build it themselves, and it doesn't work as good, and they can't upgrade it essentially for free wih hydras, and it requires power to function. Slowing down alien expansion from the current 'I can drop two extra bases wherever I like at the start of the game' is a pretty critical change.
Ya, I cringed a bit when I saw him place the early crag. As far as I can tell, the best strat for aliens is to overwhelm the map with DI. I like to get 3 hives up quickly and spam DI to all res nodes, then marine start. Frankly, I don't see the need to drop anything else but hives and harvesters until every tech/res node is taken.
Yeah, that's pretty much what I do. I get elevator transfer hive up first, get DI over all the nodes except for observation, and just build harvesters until I have at least 3-4. Then I try to get melee #1 ASAP and then upgrade the hive. After that, there's more freedom. But I don't put a hive in server room until near the end of the game unless aliens start to lose badly. Putting a hive in server room to open and putting a crag down is about the worst thing an alien comm can do. The crag does nothing (a gorge would be better) and the hive in server room actually makes things worse because aliens spawn way over there instead of close to the fight. The aliens need a forward hive for healing, res nodes, and melee #1 (for two-bite kills) first.
One thing I can comment on with your marine videos is the upgrading of extractors. I personally don't see much benefit in this since it only gives additional personal resources. Marines should look to be controlling at least 3 extractors, and upgrading one is not needed with a decent marine team. The res is much better put into more res nodes (which give you team resources too) and upgrading tech. Shotguns and res nodes should be the focus of early marine strategy.
One thing I can comment on with your marine videos is the upgrading of extractors. I personally don't see much benefit in this since it only gives additional personal resources. Marines should look to be controlling at least 3 extractors, and upgrading one is not needed with a decent marine team. The res is much better put into more res nodes (which give you team resources too) and upgrading tech. Shotguns and res nodes should be the focus of early marine strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was another thing I cringed about with the alien video. Upgrading RTs is pretty much useless in every case except as marines when they can't keep more than 1 RT alive.
Edit: I meant useless! I need to proofread more :P
I always thought it was pretty useless early game
What will that address? I don't quite understand. Spamming DI over a distant res node isn't very effective, as it dies away quickly. I can cover all res nodes except for marine start and observation on tram in under 2 minutes, and that's by only placing DI close to existing DI. Making it where you can't spread infestation from an unbuilt hive would be a good first step. As is, the instant the hive is dropped, you get 5 free infestation patches to put down.
6 DI patches are required to cover alien expansion and both nodes at double. From the elevator transfer hive, two patches are required to get operations and one more for tram hub. 9 DI patches cover 4 empty res nodes, and you can do that easily within 2 minutes. A few more minutes and observation can also be covered, leaving the marines with no res placements until flamethrowers are out. But usually the alien commander isn't that smart, and Marines get a good shot at winning.
I'd support this. Unconnected DI patches aren't really a balance problem but
1. It would be nice to know if the patch I just dropped actually connects to a hive so I don't have to babysit DI patches
2. It would prevent new alien comms from wasting energy on nearly useless DI patches
1. It would be nice to know if the patch I just dropped actually connects to a hive so I don't have to babysit DI patches
2. It would prevent new alien comms from wasting energy on nearly useless DI patches<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True on both counts. I didn't think of those benefits. I've always wanted some way to know if my patch will connect or not besides taking an educated guess at the location.
Quovatis knows what he's talking about. I might have played more alien comm then any other class in NS2 right now, and if I have learned anything is that a good alien comm almost guarantees a win regardless of the players.
Anyways...
My Rockdown strat:
Immediately send a drifter to central and west. The 3rd drifter will wait for about 30 seconds to a minute and can build the central harvester. Alternatively send 2 drifters to central/west to build hive/rt and wait for the 3rd drifter to build west/central (but leaves more chance for marines to snag it first). From there just push forward with DI and cover the marine nodes/base then yell at your aliens to keep attacking because the marines will have huge difficulty rebuilding. Even if the aliens do a poor job pushing you should already be at such an advantage that the only hope for marines is to shotgun rush the RTs successfully.
My Tram strat:
The first thing I do is send a drifter to elevator trans and secure the hive. I send the other 2 drifters for RTs because the map is large and if marines push early on you are more likely to lose them. Besides alien expansion the other RT I go for is observation and use the DI from central hive to build the link in 2 patches. As soon as res flow has been established I go for T2 and start setting up crags and whips in the hives (e trans first) then continue to flood the map with DI toward all the crucial spots for marines (such as double). If the marines don't go for flamethrowers quick enough they will have little chance as their RTs get chomped down and replaced with DI.
For either map once T2 is hit and at least 2/3 RTs secured then its really just about spamming whips/crags while getting a couple upgrades here and there.
Yeah, as alien comm on Tram, I send one drifter to elevator and one more to operations to wait on the RT. I build one patch in alien expansion and use the 3rd drifter to build the harvester there. Then I use two more DI patches to extend the DI from alien expansion to the double corridor. As the elevator hive comes up, I use 2 DI patches to link operations, build the harvester, then use the remaining energy (usually 3 patches) to cover the double nodes (one patch on top of each node, and one between them). Then one more patch to cover tram hub. I then call out over comms for someone to get into the elevator transfer hive and get out so I get the 3 free drifters. I use these drifters to build more RTs and a whip, while I use the remaining hive energy to extend toward observation. Upgrade hive, upgrade melee #1. My first crag is usually in the corner of elevator transfer, where lifeforms can heal on the other side of the wall in tram hub with both the crag and hive helping. I don't recall ever losing with this strategy, although once a crafty marine killed my drifter going to elevator before it built, which delayed my plans, but we eventually got the hive up and won. Only when I have all tech up do I even consider building the server room hive. A smart marine comm might take advantage of that part of my strategy and build a base there, but I've yet to see it happen.
I think he meant like you can only start infestation from on top of other infestation, so with that change you can't stretch a chain of infestation out half as much.
Ah, that would make sense, and be a good balancing tweak actually. Although it might not work out well for the much larger, unreleased maps.
That being sad, I usually go for NS2HD's aggressive opener, maybe with an extra harvester on Rockdown before Hive Mass.
What is the possibility of making Gorges DI persistent if connected to the hive's?
If you do make it persistent, please see the idea in Get Satisfaction about changing the color of the DI circle as an indication if it connects.
If you do make it persistent, please see the idea in Get Satisfaction about changing the color of the DI circle as an indication if it connects.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
What is the possibility of making Gorges DI persistent if connected to the hive's?
If you do make it persistent, please see the idea in Get Satisfaction about changing the color of the DI circle as an indication if it connects.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
Marines end up with a mountain of excess Plasma whether you've capped multiple nodes or not, and since most structures perform multiple functions and have very few prerequisites (save for the arbitrary "Tier Level" Research), there is little by way of "build order" to keep you in the chair all game. You also don't need to train units, so the commander becomes almost entirely obsolete at some point, free to jump out of the chair to join everyone in the deathmatch. I see most games unfold in the same order:
Build Armory > Research Available Weapon Tech
Upgrade Armory > Research Available Weapon Tech
Build Command Chair (#2) > Upgrade Command Chair #1 (T2)
Upgrade Armory > Recycle Command Chair #2 > Research Available Weapon Tech
All the while, your best bet is to turtle in Marine Spawn and hunt Alien Hive expansions, because the Marine's Achille's Heels are the Infantry Portal and Resource Starving, but with a few well-placed sentries in Marine Start you can defend the IPs, a Tech Point, a Resource Point (that can be upgraded to produce PRes at the rate of 2 RTs), AND the Power Node that all of the structures in that room are dependent on.
Your second Tech Point is five feet from your starting point, so why bother setting up defenses? If someone attacks it, just eject, run to it, kill whatever's there, and then log in there. If you die, just try again; the CC has plenty of HP, and you've got a shotgun by now, so what's to stop you?
Additionally, the Tech Tree looks more like one giant Christmas/Fir Tree than the expected Redwood Forest model. Committed paths don't exist, which essentially undermines a primary function of a Tech Tree (to limit access with dependencies).
<b>TL;DR: IMO, the games uneveloped features/mechanics do not currently facilitate multiple 'strategies'.</b>
For example, dropping a DI patch in a hive room makes it grow to maximum size super fast, allowing energy efficient placement without wasting too much time. Once you get further away from the hive, you have to decide between putting down more DI on a patch that is still growing or waiting for it to finish expanding. A time/energy trade-off that slows down the DI growth at extreme ranges either way.
EDIT: I guess, while I'm on the topic (lol derailed thread), I'm not keen on the idea of DI pustules that are vulnerable to bullets. From a marine perspective, it changes DI from "danger zone that alerts aliens to your presence" to "alien structure that needs to be destroyed". Psychologically very different. Giving the marine commander an energy-based ability to counter the alien commander's energy-based ability seems more intuitive to me.
Size of an infestation patch could scale with the size of the map.
Someone else a while ago also recommended automatic DI trails to building Alien RTs. That way you can grab more RTs and they can sustain their DI patches, and it provides places to spread DI from. You still need to build it up, but it provides a scalable way to quickly get DI out onto the map and then you have the strategix choices of where to spread to next.
But yeah, also auto-scaling could be nice.