Thats not real micromanagement, thats a farce. It wont separate good from better, the way its implemented sucks and is rarly usefull - so you might as well make it autocast if it stays that way. (but not that i really care, it can live without autocast)
<!--quoteo(post=1846180:date=May 14 2011, 04:50 PM:name=Jaweese)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jaweese @ May 14 2011, 04:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846180"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The alien comm can be played to its full potential with an APM of around 5-10, and you want spells to be automated... Are we really that slow?
Micromanagement can separate the good players from the better players. It's like aiming or skill-based movement. But maybe you're right, and we'd all be better off if we didn't have to deal with these menial tasks. But then why have an alien commander to begin with, if it doesn't offer what RTS players enjoy? Just give the builder position to the gorge and it would save someone from having to play a glorified spectator each round.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A) This game is incomplete. B) Your "solution" of increasing micromanagement is, as Koruyo posits, a farce. This is micromanagement only for the sake of micromanagement. That does not separate good from bad, just overachievers from the lazy. A real solution would be to make the commander mode more compelling for both sides.
I support a toggle-able auto-cast to break down the learning curve for new commanders.
However, it has to be a stupid as possible and abusable by clever opponents. For example, shooting anything within range with just one bullet will trigger the auto-cast and cooldown or overly deplete the energy of a structure. A commander not using auto-cast will be able to decide when to optimally use the ability.
I actually haven't played the beta for a couple months because my computer doesn't reasonably run it so I'm just going with generalities here, by the way.
It is assumed there needs to be tasks that separate a bad commander from a good commander, otherwise you just lose interest after a time. We can all agree that the fun is introduced when you're forced to prioritise tasks in order of complexity and your multi-tasking is put to the test. I would argue that introducing a scaling of performance with APM is necessary to increase depth of the commander role <i> as long as there is always more stuff to do</i>. Traditional RTS games involve both macro and micro, but in NS you don't have direct control of your units and they spawn automatically. Strategy is decided by the team. This leaves few tasks left to a commander in NS: improving infrastructure (spawn rates, upgrades, etc) and micro (dropping meds, scanning and MAC control for marines etc. What do aliens have?) Current gameplay and the gameplay of NS1 shows that there are simply not enough tasks to tax players of reasonable capacity in the role of micromanagement.
As a side note, while there are a few times micromanagement is kind of taxing in NS1 (medding a large public server when attacking a hive with limited resource), it would also have been nice to have a larger <i>range</i> of tasks to perform. Diversity adds further resilience to the depth of the commander class and further stratifies good from bad.
While I agree "micromanagement for the sake of micromanagement" exists as a phenomenon (no multiple building select for example), this does not fall under that category. Umbra-ing seems to be the alien commander's equivalent to medpacking, unless I've missed something?
As long as there is an optimal time to use an ability it is not micromanagement for the sake of micromanagement.
<!--quoteo(post=1845687:date=May 12 2011, 09:54 AM:name=jbaker8935)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jbaker8935 @ May 12 2011, 09:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1845687"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if you enable auto umbra on a crag ... auto heal should be turned off. com could always manually select the crag & trigger the ability that is not in auto mode.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll take that, give the crag an upgrade that it will deploy umbra instead of heal spray, the Acomm has the option to place a heal crag and if he wants he can upgrade that grag to do only umbra, he than could place another crag to act as the heal crag.
I agree with MuYeah. There is a big difference between 'micro for the sake of micro' and 'setting up the gameplay such that there is a meaningful skill curve and that players can advance up that curve'.
On one end we could have very intelligent autocast for everything. The comm role pretty much plays itself outside of large scale strategy decisions. Auto-medpack, auto-umbra, auto-infestation, etc. and these are done automatically as well as, or better than, a skilled human player could do them.
At the other end we have non-automation/busywork to the point of absurdity; the comm has to press a 'gather resources' button on each res node every 10 seconds otherwise the resources are lost, or that the comm can play a minigame of bejeweled to increase his research rates.
A middle ground has to be reached. This means that auto-cast and the like is only implemented on some carefully selected abilities, and that it is <u>not</u> as good as a skilled player controlling it manually. This way, a novice player can turn several things to autocast, getting some benefit out of the mechanic instead of 0 (since he hasn't the skill to trigger umbra at all in most cases, softening the skill curve at the novice level), but that the autocast can be 'gamed' by a skilled player on the other team. A skilled comm could turn off autocast, preventing it from being gamed, but only if he has the skill to use it efficiently manually.
As an example, lets say Umbra lasts 10 seconds, but has a 20 second cooldown. Novice marines charge in, umbra auto triggers, doing its job. Skilled marines shoot first, then wait a couple seconds and assault while umbra is on cooldown. Skilled marines have used their skill advantage to outwit the novice alien comm. Skilled marines shoot, but umbra doesn't trigger. Skilled alien comm has prevented his umbra from getting gamed by the skilled marine, but does the alien comm have <i>enough</i> skill to still manually trigger the umbra when the marines assault even though he's currently focused elsewhere? We'll find out.
Currently though there is so much lacking from the comm capabilities on both sides that its hard to judge where this balance needs to lie, what abilities should be auto-castable at all, and how smart they should be when enabled. But in order for there to be a meaningful skill curve there will have to be mechanics that clearly could be done very well by automated systems that either have fairly dumb autocast, or no autocast at all. Again, not to make busywork for the commander, but so that skilled players to put that skill to use, and so novice players can get into the game easily and also grow into skilled players.
<!--quoteo(post=1846180:date=May 14 2011, 09:50 AM:name=Jaweese)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jaweese @ May 14 2011, 09:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846180"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The alien comm can be played to its full potential with an APM of around 5-10, and you want spells to be automated... Are we really that slow?
Micromanagement can separate the good players from the better players. It's like aiming or skill-based movement. But maybe you're right, and we'd all be better off if we didn't have to deal with these menial tasks. But then why have an alien commander to begin with, if it doesn't offer what RTS players enjoy? Just give the builder position to the gorge and it would save someone from having to play a glorified spectator each round.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally I don't play RTS games to click like an idiot. I play them for the strategic thought, oddly enough.
I like the alien commander because it is almost pure strategy, you don't benefit from clicking around like you have some sort of disorder but you do benefit from careful building placement and expansion choices.
If I wanted to be forced to click constantly I'd play track and field, although personally I like to think that we've moved on a bit since then.
There is limitless depth and room for personal improvement to be found in any strategy game, NS2 is no different, it does not need some arbitrary distraction which is nothing but a relic of the dark age of game design, when good controls were an afterthought rather than an integral part of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1846281:date=May 14 2011, 04:20 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ May 14 2011, 04:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846281"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally I don't play RTS games to click like an idiot. I play them for the strategic thought, oddly enough.
I like the alien commander because it is almost pure strategy, you don't benefit from clicking around like you have some sort of disorder but you do benefit from careful building placement and expansion choices.
If I wanted to be forced to click constantly I'd play track and field, although personally I like to think that we've moved on a bit since then.
There is limitless depth and room for personal improvement to be found in any strategy game, NS2 is no different, it does not need some arbitrary distraction which is nothing but a relic of the dark age of game design, when good controls were an afterthought rather than an integral part of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ^This
I think that it could be good if there was a hotkey for those skills, sort of like the spellbar people suggested. Except, instead of being a "use anywhere" spell, it gets the crag closest to where you used the skill (limited by a small circle or maybe the screen), and makes it use the crags umbra. Thats one key and one-ish click (doesnt have to be exaclty at the crag, just sort of near it).
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
edited May 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1846281:date=May 14 2011, 01:20 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ May 14 2011, 01:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846281"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally I don't play RTS games to click like an idiot. I play them for the strategic thought, oddly enough.
I like the alien commander because it is almost pure strategy, you don't benefit from clicking around like you have some sort of disorder but you do benefit from careful building placement and expansion choices.
If I wanted to be forced to click constantly I'd play track and field, although personally I like to think that we've moved on a bit since then.
There is limitless depth and room for personal improvement to be found in any strategy game, NS2 is no different, it does not need some arbitrary distraction which is nothing but a relic of the dark age of game design, when good controls were an afterthought rather than an integral part of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seconded.
Umbra should still allow, but not require, comms to micromanage it. That's why I suggest the auto-casting feature (so I could activate and forget umbra for that crag(s)). Though, I like the auto-casting linked with other structures in the room being attacked. So when a structure in the room is attacked, all crags with auto-casting engaged will activate umbra.
The point of all this damnable clicking is to ideally force prioritisation of tasks based on the individuals limited multi-tasking ability. As long as the clicks can be put to use (which is down to the game design) it is a good thing to have. Should I medpack my marines only when they reach 50 health or should I just spam a big pile in the middle of them and go send a MAC to scout? Should I watch the battle to umbra when enough marines are in the vicinity to make it worthwhile or should I build a DC cuddlenest for my gorges to sit in when the game is over? A better player than me would be able to do both and should rightfully be rewarded for it.
It is my opinion that a non co-op multiplayer game must have both over-arching strategical thought and a hands-on element of aim, movement or micro in order to produce depth and longevity of play. Any perceived trade-off between the two is false, every good game has the need for pre-planned strategy no matter the mechanical input requirement. Even if I had perfect aim in quake, I would still get beaten badly because I don't know any strategy for it. By removing the hands-on bits from a game you are wrongfully capping the strategical potential because everyone is working on the "pure strategy" bits anyway.
I do agree for the commander that the effort/reward curve should be linear up to a certain designated point (for example, 80-100 apm) and afterwards any excess clicking you fancy doing should be less and less rewarding. But still there for min/maxers to pick up on and do.
Not to be rude but perhaps a turn-based game would suit the style of play you are a proponent of better?
<!--quoteo(post=1846294:date=May 14 2011, 10:05 PM:name=Feha)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Feha @ May 14 2011, 10:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846294"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that it could be good if there was a hotkey for those skills, sort of like the spellbar people suggested. Except, instead of being a "use anywhere" spell, it gets the crag closest to where you used the skill (limited by a small circle or maybe the screen), and makes it use the crags umbra. Thats one key and one-ish click (doesnt have to be exaclty at the crag, just sort of near it).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Having an "umbra button" that you would drop like a med-pack and have the nearest crag use the ability would be great as long as there were a range around each crag and visual notification of which crags were actually able to umbra.
umbra should be given to lerks, they are long range unites now, them having this ability makes more sense. Defense chambers (crags) should include upgrades and maybe passive abilities to make it less complicated.
I've also seen cool idea umbra puts flamethrower fire out which would possibility make umbra be used more by lerks.
Comments
It wont separate good from better, the way its implemented sucks and is rarly usefull - so you might as well make it autocast if it stays that way. (but not that i really care, it can live without autocast)
Are we really that slow?
Micromanagement can separate the good players from the better players. It's like aiming or skill-based movement. But maybe you're right, and we'd all be better off if we didn't have to deal with these menial tasks. But then why have an alien commander to begin with, if it doesn't offer what RTS players enjoy? Just give the builder position to the gorge and it would save someone from having to play a glorified spectator each round.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A) This game is incomplete.
B) Your "solution" of increasing micromanagement is, as Koruyo posits, a farce. This is micromanagement only for the sake of micromanagement. That does not separate good from bad, just overachievers from the lazy. A real solution would be to make the commander mode more compelling for both sides.
However, it has to be a stupid as possible and abusable by clever opponents. For example, shooting anything within range with just one bullet will trigger the auto-cast and cooldown or overly deplete the energy of a structure. A commander not using auto-cast will be able to decide when to optimally use the ability.
I actually haven't played the beta for a couple months because my computer doesn't reasonably run it so I'm just going with generalities here, by the way.
It is assumed there needs to be tasks that separate a bad commander from a good commander, otherwise you just lose interest after a time. We can all agree that the fun is introduced when you're forced to prioritise tasks in order of complexity and your multi-tasking is put to the test. I would argue that introducing a scaling of performance with APM is necessary to increase depth of the commander role <i> as long as there is always more stuff to do</i>. Traditional RTS games involve both macro and micro, but in NS you don't have direct control of your units and they spawn automatically. Strategy is decided by the team. This leaves few tasks left to a commander in NS: improving infrastructure (spawn rates, upgrades, etc) and micro (dropping meds, scanning and MAC control for marines etc. What do aliens have?) Current gameplay and the gameplay of NS1 shows that there are simply not enough tasks to tax players of reasonable capacity in the role of micromanagement.
As a side note, while there are a few times micromanagement is kind of taxing in NS1 (medding a large public server when attacking a hive with limited resource), it would also have been nice to have a larger <i>range</i> of tasks to perform. Diversity adds further resilience to the depth of the commander class and further stratifies good from bad.
While I agree "micromanagement for the sake of micromanagement" exists as a phenomenon (no multiple building select for example), this does not fall under that category. Umbra-ing seems to be the alien commander's equivalent to medpacking, unless I've missed something?
As long as there is an optimal time to use an ability it is not micromanagement for the sake of micromanagement.
I'll take that, give the crag an upgrade that it will deploy umbra instead of heal spray, the Acomm has the option to place a heal crag and if he wants he can upgrade that grag to do only umbra, he than could place another crag to act as the heal crag.
On one end we could have very intelligent autocast for everything. The comm role pretty much plays itself outside of large scale strategy decisions. Auto-medpack, auto-umbra, auto-infestation, etc. and these are done automatically as well as, or better than, a skilled human player could do them.
At the other end we have non-automation/busywork to the point of absurdity; the comm has to press a 'gather resources' button on each res node every 10 seconds otherwise the resources are lost, or that the comm can play a minigame of bejeweled to increase his research rates.
A middle ground has to be reached. This means that auto-cast and the like is only implemented on some carefully selected abilities, and that it is <u>not</u> as good as a skilled player controlling it manually. This way, a novice player can turn several things to autocast, getting some benefit out of the mechanic instead of 0 (since he hasn't the skill to trigger umbra at all in most cases, softening the skill curve at the novice level), but that the autocast can be 'gamed' by a skilled player on the other team. A skilled comm could turn off autocast, preventing it from being gamed, but only if he has the skill to use it efficiently manually.
As an example, lets say Umbra lasts 10 seconds, but has a 20 second cooldown.
Novice marines charge in, umbra auto triggers, doing its job.
Skilled marines shoot first, then wait a couple seconds and assault while umbra is on cooldown. Skilled marines have used their skill advantage to outwit the novice alien comm.
Skilled marines shoot, but umbra doesn't trigger. Skilled alien comm has prevented his umbra from getting gamed by the skilled marine, but does the alien comm have <i>enough</i> skill to still manually trigger the umbra when the marines assault even though he's currently focused elsewhere? We'll find out.
Currently though there is so much lacking from the comm capabilities on both sides that its hard to judge where this balance needs to lie, what abilities should be auto-castable at all, and how smart they should be when enabled. But in order for there to be a meaningful skill curve there will have to be mechanics that clearly could be done very well by automated systems that either have fairly dumb autocast, or no autocast at all. Again, not to make busywork for the commander, but so that skilled players to put that skill to use, and so novice players can get into the game easily and also grow into skilled players.
Are we really that slow?
Micromanagement can separate the good players from the better players. It's like aiming or skill-based movement. But maybe you're right, and we'd all be better off if we didn't have to deal with these menial tasks. But then why have an alien commander to begin with, if it doesn't offer what RTS players enjoy? Just give the builder position to the gorge and it would save someone from having to play a glorified spectator each round.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally I don't play RTS games to click like an idiot. I play them for the strategic thought, oddly enough.
I like the alien commander because it is almost pure strategy, you don't benefit from clicking around like you have some sort of disorder but you do benefit from careful building placement and expansion choices.
If I wanted to be forced to click constantly I'd play track and field, although personally I like to think that we've moved on a bit since then.
There is limitless depth and room for personal improvement to be found in any strategy game, NS2 is no different, it does not need some arbitrary distraction which is nothing but a relic of the dark age of game design, when good controls were an afterthought rather than an integral part of the game.
I like the alien commander because it is almost pure strategy, you don't benefit from clicking around like you have some sort of disorder but you do benefit from careful building placement and expansion choices.
If I wanted to be forced to click constantly I'd play track and field, although personally I like to think that we've moved on a bit since then.
There is limitless depth and room for personal improvement to be found in any strategy game, NS2 is no different, it does not need some arbitrary distraction which is nothing but a relic of the dark age of game design, when good controls were an afterthought rather than an integral part of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^This
Also, marry me.
Except, instead of being a "use anywhere" spell, it gets the crag closest to where you used the skill (limited by a small circle or maybe the screen), and makes it use the crags umbra.
Thats one key and one-ish click (doesnt have to be exaclty at the crag, just sort of near it).
I like the alien commander because it is almost pure strategy, you don't benefit from clicking around like you have some sort of disorder but you do benefit from careful building placement and expansion choices.
If I wanted to be forced to click constantly I'd play track and field, although personally I like to think that we've moved on a bit since then.
There is limitless depth and room for personal improvement to be found in any strategy game, NS2 is no different, it does not need some arbitrary distraction which is nothing but a relic of the dark age of game design, when good controls were an afterthought rather than an integral part of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seconded.
Umbra should still allow, but not require, comms to micromanage it. That's why I suggest the auto-casting feature (so I could activate and forget umbra for that crag(s)). Though, I like the auto-casting linked with other structures in the room being attacked. So when a structure in the room is attacked, all crags with auto-casting engaged will activate umbra.
Also, marry me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point of all this damnable clicking is to ideally force prioritisation of tasks based on the individuals limited multi-tasking ability. As long as the clicks can be put to use (which is down to the game design) it is a good thing to have. Should I medpack my marines only when they reach 50 health or should I just spam a big pile in the middle of them and go send a MAC to scout? Should I watch the battle to umbra when enough marines are in the vicinity to make it worthwhile or should I build a DC cuddlenest for my gorges to sit in when the game is over? A better player than me would be able to do both and should rightfully be rewarded for it.
It is my opinion that a non co-op multiplayer game must have both over-arching strategical thought and a hands-on element of aim, movement or micro in order to produce depth and longevity of play. Any perceived trade-off between the two is false, every good game has the need for pre-planned strategy no matter the mechanical input requirement. Even if I had perfect aim in quake, I would still get beaten badly because I don't know any strategy for it. By removing the hands-on bits from a game you are wrongfully capping the strategical potential because everyone is working on the "pure strategy" bits anyway.
I do agree for the commander that the effort/reward curve should be linear up to a certain designated point (for example, 80-100 apm) and afterwards any excess clicking you fancy doing should be less and less rewarding. But still there for min/maxers to pick up on and do.
Not to be rude but perhaps a turn-based game would suit the style of play you are a proponent of better?
<!--quoteo(post=1846294:date=May 14 2011, 10:05 PM:name=Feha)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Feha @ May 14 2011, 10:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846294"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that it could be good if there was a hotkey for those skills, sort of like the spellbar people suggested.
Except, instead of being a "use anywhere" spell, it gets the crag closest to where you used the skill (limited by a small circle or maybe the screen), and makes it use the crags umbra.
Thats one key and one-ish click (doesnt have to be exaclty at the crag, just sort of near it).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Having an "umbra button" that you would drop like a med-pack and have the nearest crag use the ability would be great as long as there were a range around each crag and visual notification of which crags were actually able to umbra.
I've also seen cool idea umbra puts flamethrower fire out which would possibility make umbra be used more by lerks.