I can't say I like RFK. It's way to unbalancing, and it enforces defensive game play where an unsuccessfull first contact already makes the difference between their or your next restower.
<!--quoteo(post=1850030:date=Jun 5 2011, 12:53 PM:name=Papayas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Papayas @ Jun 5 2011, 12:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1850030"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like this but I think it should only be for the gorge so the gorge still keeps a little bit of economical value. Gorge's contributed to the team but placing structures with their own res, now they should be able to contribute to the team but getting resources for the commander to place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think skulk is having the worst of it right now. Gorge can still fill a support role quite naturally, it's something it has been doing since NS1. Skulk on the other hand doesn't have that much of a role now that it's res can't be directed to building. Certainly you're going to skulk while saving for a fade, but maybe apart from parasiting there isn't much you can do better as a skulk than as a fade.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulks are also getting a bit of a fix in the next build so maybe the RFK won't be so bad if you can manage to kill the marines easier instead of dying yourself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What kind of fix are the skulks getting? Bugfixes and tweaks are nice, but are not the solution if the whole gameplay design doesn't have a role for skulk.
<!--quoteo(post=1850028:date=Jun 5 2011, 12:44 PM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Jun 5 2011, 12:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1850028"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's a good idea. Perhaps as a Tier2 upgrade for skulks?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure about this. I'm looking ways to allow teams to decide more between the economy and military strength. Is a Tier2 upgrade providing enough of that or would it just fill the role of a nice-to-get upgrade in case you've got skulks running around when you hit Tier2?
All of these ways to "fix" RFK make me twitch. Res for Skulks and Gorges, but not other lifeforms? Or res only if within a certain radius of a certain harvester within a certain time period?
Guys, this is madness. That kind of band-aid, exception-riddled design drives everyone crazy. It makes the game a newbie nightmare, it makes balance insanely difficult to fix, it opens holes to exploits, it leads to pro player rage vs casuals. The tutorials are going to be like a math lesson. This just doesn't work well.
And it still doesn't fix anything, of course.
---
Definitely, skulks need a role. If it was me, I'd leverage the SPIRIT of the skulk: small, fast, and most importantly, the only unit that can wallwalk. The role of the skulk, as befits the name, is to hide above doors and in corners, and ambush marines.
I think adding a chargable wallpounce INCAP, something like the L4D Hunter, would fit the theme perfectly. If they operate as pack, skulks can ambush and dismantle poorly organized groups of marines. And rambo marines are simply dead meat (as they should be).
Note my method. I'm aiming to fix these specific problems in the game:
1) Skulks don't have a purpose all the way to end-game.
2) A patient and thoughtful skulk doesn't have a way to gain an advantage, especially vs. shotties. Even when they see marines coming with hivesight, skulks don't currently get any real advantage. Skulks need some kind of ambush bonus.
3) Ramboing solo marines should be discouraged. That is, there should some vulnerability that aliens can exploit.
My biggest fear with NS2 has finally come to pass. I utterly loathed what RFK did to NS1 and now it's in NS2. It will throw the game balance into chaos and just allow good players to utterly dominate the rest. I saw this happen with NS1 and it's going to happen to NS2 again. Say hello to 5 minute Fades destroying whole teams singlehandedly, especially now that the old Blink mode is back. I will test this out for you UWE but given that it looks to be identical to NS1 I doubt I'll find much to praise about it.
The only problem I see RFK fixing is where a team has lost all their RT's and can't afford a new one. However, why not just make hives and CC's have an income of 1. Problem solved, none created.
<!--quoteo(post=1850256:date=Jun 6 2011, 04:05 PM:name=Agiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agiel @ Jun 6 2011, 04:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1850256"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only problem I see RFK fixing is where a team has lost all their RT's and can't afford a new one. However, why not just make hives and CC's have an income of 1. Problem solved, none created.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some of us think it would be good to have the technodes generating team res (or a least both res), just look into some other threads, this will make them more useful as in the next build marines won't need several technodes to tech up.
Just had a good idea about the resource system. Why not reward the teamplay and not only the kills ?
I take an example : You're a gorge, your mates need health, you heal them. What's your reward ? Nothing actually. Now, let the healers getting a resource bonus, it'll encourage them to heal/weld their team. Now, export this system to every teamplay actions : you defend the RT, you earn more resources, you stay with your squad and you assist a kill, moar resources, etc. THAT will encourage people to stay in squads AND the teamplay (I actually think that a "defense/health/attack" boost when in squad is really weird).
I also don't think the "+3" resources every time you kill an enemy should exist. It makes the gap between good players and newbies bigger. You should win a higher personal resource income for a certain time not an instant bonus, this way you can't win a game when you don't have RT (and the other team all of them) but where you can have enough kill to have better weapons/lifeforms. In every balanced rts, the gap between the winner and the looser (when they both have the same skill level) is in the economy and territory control, not only in the micromanaging/APM (yes it also count, but less). This way when you have less RT, you'll win less resources, even with resources rewards and more if you have more RTs.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1850200:date=Jun 5 2011, 11:53 PM:name=Ryo-Ohki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ryo-Ohki @ Jun 5 2011, 11:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1850200"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My biggest fear with NS2 has finally come to pass. I utterly loathed what RFK did to NS1 and now it's in NS2. It will throw the game balance into chaos and just allow good players to utterly dominate the rest. I saw this happen with NS1 and it's going to happen to NS2 again. Say hello to 5 minute Fades destroying whole teams singlehandedly, especially now that the old Blink mode is back. I will test this out for you UWE but given that it looks to be identical to NS1 I doubt I'll find much to praise about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much. I also dislike disconnecting resource gathering from the commander. The only way I see this working in NS2 is if they make the RFK so small that it takes quite a while for a player to gather enough to buy a shotgun or gorge.
Im willing to test RFK out in 178, but I am not sure it will have the effect the devs are hoping for.
<!--quoteo(post=1849998:date=Jun 5 2011, 03:39 AM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Jun 5 2011, 03:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1849998"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My biggest concern about RFK is that it penalises Aliens heavily when they Skulk mob rush Marines in a <b>defence</b> of a Hive, Skulks are cannon fodder and are meant to be thrown at the Marines to wittle down the armor and health... however if each Skulk killed actually provides more res for the Marines to equip faster and better equipment, it just makes a bad situation worse. ... In short , I am concerned it will penalise Alien players that play the Skulk as a its meant to be played in <b>defence</b>, as a throw away unit thats meant to distract or whittle down a enemies position.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is exactly what I am thinking. Skulk has a nice little role right now is the form of constant pressure. Not only defense but harassment too. I remember a game where marines had us at our last hive, but we put up a good defense. It was going nowhere though, and the marines would eventually win. I switched over to skulk, and sent wave after wave of skulk suicide runs through vents and behind enemy lines. I died ALOT, but I chipped away at their buildings. Marine comm would sometimes fix them, but leave MACs laying around for me to take out. Eventually things started breaking down, and I took down turrets, observations tower, armories (that were left behind in prior pushes) and shedloads of MACs. All the time I forced the marine comm and players to pay attention to me, instead of the frontline. We eventually won that game. With RFK, I probably wouldn't have been as successful, since I think I died over 30 times during all that, and maybe killed 2 marines. What I hope is that their RFK gain would not offset the loss of infrastructure I could inflict. Maybe you can gain RFK against structures and MACs as well.
However, its questionable this exact scenario could still happen even without RFK. With T3 siege equipment coming soon...teams at the end of their rope are probably going to taken out quicker...not leaving as much time to do what I did. With RFK games are certainly going to end even quicker.
What I fear is that a lot time will be spent playing a game you already know is over. I'd rather have long games where comebacks are still possible, then shorter matches that are decided in the first 5 minutes.
as i said, a first successfull or thwartet push means the difference already. if a skulkrush in the first two minutes or early all team marine push towards an important chokepoint is taken out with near to zero losses, the enemy team is even stronger.
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just letting that stand here.
I think skulk is having the worst of it right now. Gorge can still fill a support role quite naturally, it's something it has been doing since NS1. Skulk on the other hand doesn't have that much of a role now that it's res can't be directed to building. Certainly you're going to skulk while saving for a fade, but maybe apart from parasiting there isn't much you can do better as a skulk than as a fade.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulks are also getting a bit of a fix in the next build so maybe the RFK won't be so bad if you can manage to kill the marines easier instead of dying yourself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What kind of fix are the skulks getting? Bugfixes and tweaks are nice, but are not the solution if the whole gameplay design doesn't have a role for skulk.
<!--quoteo(post=1850028:date=Jun 5 2011, 12:44 PM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Jun 5 2011, 12:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1850028"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's a good idea. Perhaps as a Tier2 upgrade for skulks?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure about this. I'm looking ways to allow teams to decide more between the economy and military strength. Is a Tier2 upgrade providing enough of that or would it just fill the role of a nice-to-get upgrade in case you've got skulks running around when you hit Tier2?
Guys, this is madness. That kind of band-aid, exception-riddled design drives everyone crazy. It makes the game a newbie nightmare, it makes balance insanely difficult to fix, it opens holes to exploits, it leads to pro player rage vs casuals. The tutorials are going to be like a math lesson. This just doesn't work well.
And it still doesn't fix anything, of course.
---
Definitely, skulks need a role. If it was me, I'd leverage the SPIRIT of the skulk: small, fast, and most importantly, the only unit that can wallwalk. The role of the skulk, as befits the name, is to hide above doors and in corners, and ambush marines.
I think adding a chargable wallpounce INCAP, something like the L4D Hunter, would fit the theme perfectly. If they operate as pack, skulks can ambush and dismantle poorly organized groups of marines. And rambo marines are simply dead meat (as they should be).
Note my method. I'm aiming to fix these specific problems in the game:
1) Skulks don't have a purpose all the way to end-game.
2) A patient and thoughtful skulk doesn't have a way to gain an advantage, especially vs. shotties. Even when they see marines coming with hivesight, skulks don't currently get any real advantage. Skulks need some kind of ambush bonus.
3) Ramboing solo marines should be discouraged. That is, there should some vulnerability that aliens can exploit.
Res for kill... that's just ill.
Res for kill - less on the bill.
Res for kill. Puke, the players will.
Some of us think it would be good to have the technodes generating team res (or a least both res), just look into some other threads, this will make them more useful as in the next build marines won't need several technodes to tech up.
Just had a good idea about the resource system. Why not reward the teamplay and not only the kills ?
I take an example : You're a gorge, your mates need health, you heal them. What's your reward ? Nothing actually. Now, let the healers getting a resource bonus, it'll encourage them to heal/weld their team. Now, export this system to every teamplay actions : you defend the RT, you earn more resources, you stay with your squad and you assist a kill, moar resources, etc. THAT will encourage people to stay in squads AND the teamplay (I actually think that a "defense/health/attack" boost when in squad is really weird).
I also don't think the "+3" resources every time you kill an enemy should exist. It makes the gap between good players and newbies bigger. You should win a higher personal resource income for a certain time not an instant bonus, this way you can't win a game when you don't have RT (and the other team all of them) but where you can have enough kill to have better weapons/lifeforms. In every balanced rts, the gap between the winner and the looser (when they both have the same skill level) is in the economy and territory control, not only in the micromanaging/APM (yes it also count, but less).
This way when you have less RT, you'll win less resources, even with resources rewards and more if you have more RTs.
I hope I'm enough clear.
Pretty much. I also dislike disconnecting resource gathering from the commander. The only way I see this working in NS2 is if they make the RFK so small that it takes quite a while for a player to gather enough to buy a shotgun or gorge.
<!--quoteo(post=1849998:date=Jun 5 2011, 03:39 AM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Jun 5 2011, 03:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1849998"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My biggest concern about RFK is that it penalises Aliens heavily when they Skulk mob rush Marines in a <b>defence</b> of a Hive, Skulks are cannon fodder and are meant to be thrown at the Marines to wittle down the armor and health... however if each Skulk killed actually provides more res for the Marines to equip faster and better equipment, it just makes a bad situation worse.
...
In short , I am concerned it will penalise Alien players that play the Skulk as a its meant to be played in <b>defence</b>, as a throw away unit thats meant to distract or whittle down a enemies position.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is exactly what I am thinking. Skulk has a nice little role right now is the form of constant pressure. Not only defense but harassment too. I remember a game where marines had us at our last hive, but we put up a good defense. It was going nowhere though, and the marines would eventually win. I switched over to skulk, and sent wave after wave of skulk suicide runs through vents and behind enemy lines. I died ALOT, but I chipped away at their buildings. Marine comm would sometimes fix them, but leave MACs laying around for me to take out. Eventually things started breaking down, and I took down turrets, observations tower, armories (that were left behind in prior pushes) and shedloads of MACs. All the time I forced the marine comm and players to pay attention to me, instead of the frontline. We eventually won that game. With RFK, I probably wouldn't have been as successful, since I think I died over 30 times during all that, and maybe killed 2 marines. What I hope is that their RFK gain would not offset the loss of infrastructure I could inflict. Maybe you can gain RFK against structures and MACs as well.
However, its questionable this exact scenario could still happen even without RFK. With T3 siege equipment coming soon...teams at the end of their rope are probably going to taken out quicker...not leaving as much time to do what I did. With RFK games are certainly going to end even quicker.
What I fear is that a lot time will be spent playing a game you already know is over. I'd rather have long games where comebacks are still possible, then shorter matches that are decided in the first 5 minutes.
if a skulkrush in the first two minutes or early all team marine push towards an important chokepoint is taken out with near to zero losses, the enemy team is even stronger.
res for BEING killed, though...