Replace energy with personal resources
swalk
Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
<div class="IPBDescription">It will help with several things</div>I couldn't find another thread about this, tried searching, but it doesn't seem to work for me. And I think this should have its own thread.
As suggested in lots of other threads by various people. I also think that energy costs should be replaced with personal resources.
Pros:
- Energy is a bit confusing, since it's not a directly visible resource like TRes and PRes. using PRes would be less confusing.
- It would give the alien commander something to use his personal resources on.
- There would be alot more strategy involved when you place one of the chambers abilities, since you would be using resources on it. The abilities could be remade so; they activate, and then drain PRes until you deactivate them. This should be shown in the commander HUD, so you don't forget a chamber, and it drains all your PRes.
- Drifters, MACs (and ARCs? (AI units)) would also cost PRes, instead of just the time energy takes to tick up by itself.
- Infestation(pustules) would also cost PRes, which could reduce the chance of marines being boxed in by Infestation in their spawn sometimes. As you would think a second time before just placing infestation.
- It would make PRes alot more valuable for both teams.
I can't really think of any Cons, can you? Maybe even more Pros?
As suggested in lots of other threads by various people. I also think that energy costs should be replaced with personal resources.
Pros:
- Energy is a bit confusing, since it's not a directly visible resource like TRes and PRes. using PRes would be less confusing.
- It would give the alien commander something to use his personal resources on.
- There would be alot more strategy involved when you place one of the chambers abilities, since you would be using resources on it. The abilities could be remade so; they activate, and then drain PRes until you deactivate them. This should be shown in the commander HUD, so you don't forget a chamber, and it drains all your PRes.
- Drifters, MACs (and ARCs? (AI units)) would also cost PRes, instead of just the time energy takes to tick up by itself.
- Infestation(pustules) would also cost PRes, which could reduce the chance of marines being boxed in by Infestation in their spawn sometimes. As you would think a second time before just placing infestation.
- It would make PRes alot more valuable for both teams.
I can't really think of any Cons, can you? Maybe even more Pros?
Comments
I think the chamber abilities should have some sort of cooldown per use if using PRes, like Umbra costs 3 PRes and cooldown for 3 seconds after the first activation...
But +1 for the way the alien commander could use his P res.
But +1 for the way the alien commander could use his P res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, but the marine commander doesn't have to use his PRes on activating abilities of structures like the alien commander do.
Here is a little compairation between the two sides:
MACs = Drifters
med/ammo/cata/weapons = chamber abilities
ARC is the only problem I can see with this, that would unbalance it. Maybe aliens could have something (PRes) expensive that compares to it/would balance it. If not, it could cost Team Resources. I imagine the ARC would cost alot of PRes so it would be something you'd have to save up for.
<!--quoteo(post=1850321:date=Jun 6 2011, 08:17 PM:name=l3lessed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (l3lessed @ Jun 6 2011, 08:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1850321"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Would it be worth it to just completely get rid of tres and have everything the commander buys use his pres. It would make the decisions a commander makes when it comes to spending res more important. It would also help remove the confusion between the two resources. Most people who command never leave the command center, and even if they do, why should they have a huge stock pile of resources waiting for them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I kinda like the two different resource pools. I don't think that there is any confusion between the two of them, some RTS games have even more resource pools, two is not confusing as long as you can see what costs what(tip tools). I can see what you mean, but for an example; MAC's are very easy to take down, so having them cost the same resource you would use on teching/expanding would maybe cause them not to be used very much(and maybe not at all). And still you wouldn't see crazy MAC trains, since they still cost a resource. The same resource you could use to assist your team. Personal Resource would(and already) work as the assist resource(MACs are assisting the marines in building for example).
*Energy costs used to set the pace of the usage of those abilities. Now, Pres does.
*Adding Hives/CC used to increase the total pool of energy. Now extractors and harvesters set the pool refill rate...and essentially the number of players on a team determines the pool.
*A single commander throughout the game was not uncommon. Now commander switching among the players is promoted in order to maximize pres use on strategic units/abilities.
*MAC/Drifters, infestation...ect. had their own resource type to depend on. Now they are competing with player upgrades/weapons for the same resource.
If the alien commander gets something that would be suitable for spending p-res on, if for example the comm could grow hydras, then it would make sense to charge p-res for them. Currently however the alien comm has no such ability.
*MAC/Drifters, infestation...ect. had their own resource type to depend on. Now they are competing with player upgrades/weapons for the same resource.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*Commanders could get +1 Pres for his players kills, that would require restricting each team to one commander. But that would probably balance that out. Maybe the ARC should cost Team Resources after all.
*MACs/Drifters, infestation...etc. have atm. a self regenerating pool that you can do nothing to increase, but to dublicate the building. They don't compete with player upgrades or weapon unlocks, they cost Team Resources. Maybe weapon drops a little, but players should be able to afford their own weapons, if they are good. I haven't tried the new Personal Resources model yet. But it should be x4 times as slow as the one in B177? And that should be about fine.
<!--quoteo(post=1850503:date=Jun 7 2011, 06:22 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 7 2011, 06:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1850503"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I prefer energy.
If the alien commander gets something that would be suitable for spending p-res on, if for example the comm could grow hydras, then it would make sense to charge p-res for them. Currently however the alien comm has no such ability.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Using the abilities of all four chambers will eventually be a task that only good commanders will be good at (as in knowing when it's wise to use them, and when it's not wise). Like assisting marines with meds etc.
They are his ability. If you charge PRes for using them, they would be the opposite of meds/ammo. You will have to use your resources wisely. PRes income is already getting decreased (for 178? it is in the design log as far as i remember). You won't be able to "spam" all the abilities unless you have like the whole map capped, and you are clearly winning. Instead you might have to chose different abilities in different situations.
They are his ability. If you charge PRes for using them, they would be the opposite of meds/ammo. You will have to use your resources wisely. PRes income is already getting decreased (for 178? it is in the design log as far as i remember). You won't be able to "spam" all the abilities unless you have like the whole map capped, and you are clearly winning. Instead you might have to chose different abilities in different situations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes and there is nothing about that system that I like.
I think abilities should be used a lot, I think commanders should be very free with their use and free to make mistakes with them here and there without suffering anything beyond having the abilities be fired at a less than ideal time.
Like I said, if commanders had a reason to spend p-res on things, i.e if they had something they needed to use in limited amounts but which should not detract from the tech progression which team res is tied to (i.e, if the commander could build purely defensive structures) then I would support charging p-res for them, but as the commander doesn't, I don't agree that the commander needs p-res to be used for other things.
The only things I can support p-res being spent on are hydras and possibly whips/crags for aliens, and turrets/weapons/arcs for marines, those being things you need to buy but can't usually justify slowing your tech rate in order to get.
I think abilities should be used a lot, I think commanders should be very free with their use and free to make mistakes with them here and there without suffering anything beyond having the abilities be fired at a less than ideal time.
Like I said, if commanders had a reason to spend p-res on things, i.e if they had something they needed to use in limited amounts but which should not detract from the tech progression which team res is tied to (i.e, if the commander could build purely defensive structures) then I would support charging p-res for them, but as the commander doesn't, I don't agree that the commander needs p-res to be used for other things.
The only things I can support p-res being spent on are hydras and possibly whips/crags for aliens, and turrets/weapons/arcs for marines, those being things you need to buy but can't usually justify slowing your tech rate in order to get.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They will still be used alot, but especially in early-game(and when you are low on resources) you would have to chose them wisely. Mistakes like the ones you are talking about would still be pretty minor, ie. the same as dropping a few medpacks too much.
I think you are underestimating these abilities alot, they are quite powerful so far, and can't imagine that the others we haven't seen will be less than that. They need to be limited, and connecting them to the resource flow seems like a good idea of making the alien commander use his team resources. Having them use Personal Resources doesn't hinder teching up one bit, that is still two different pools. The commander can build whip/crag/shift/shade for team resources, they are defensive structures. I don't get where you were headed with this?
Gorges use personal resources on hydras, why should the alien commander do the exact same? That doesn't benefit the gameplay.
Whip/Crag/Shift/Shade have upgrades and unlocks for the team, ie. teching, ie. team resources?
I agree with you on turrets, as hydras cost Pres aswell. Not quite sure about ARCs as the aliens don't have anything similar that would cost the alien commander the same massive amount of personal resources(pretty huge amount I think, something you have to save a little res up for).
This suggestion still has nothing to do with Team Resources, and it doesn't hinder teching up.
I believe that you are misunderstanding the suggestion.
Yes, all other RTS games have multiple resource, but the different types of resources are located in different areas of the map, are gathered differently, and fuction very differently from a game mechanic perspective. In NS, there is really only one resource, its gathered the same way, and it comes in at the exact same rate, so why do we need to separate it into team resources and personal resources? It really doesn't make sense since mechanically it is doing the exact same thing.
It seems like stream lining it so everything uses personal resources would make balancing and complications a lot easier to deal with. It would also make upgrading resource towers more useful for both the commander and the team. You would have to decide if the momentary resource reduction is worth the long term benefit. It would also make taking out and defending upgraded nodes even more important.
At least for me, the more I talk about this the more I like it.
Yes, all other RTS games have multiple resource, but the different types of resources are located in different areas of the map, are gathered differently, and fuction very differently from a game mechanic perspective. In NS, there is really only one resource, its gathered the same way, and it comes in at the exact same rate, so why do we need to separate it into team resources and personal resources? It really doesn't make sense since mechanically it is doing the exact same thing.
It seems like stream lining it so everything uses personal resources would make balancing and complications a lot easier to deal with. It would also make upgrading resource towers more useful for both the commander and the team. You would have to decide if the momentary resource reduction is worth the long term benefit. It would also make taking out and defending upgraded nodes even more important.
At least for me, the more I talk about this the more I like it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would hinder alot of the support to your team, especially in public games. Where many would just make teching up, the highest priority. A problem NS1 had. With two types of resources, A tech resource, and a support resource, you won't have to choose not to help your teammates. It would just make you a bad commander in many situations. Since personal resources IS meant for supporting your units.
You would still have to make stategic choices of how you use both kind of resources(getting a MAC for repairing the ARC, or more medpacks/ammo for your team etc.)
I clearly see some pros in what you say aswell, like lerk gassing slowing down marine teching etc.
But I don't think that fits NS2 very well. And it would slow down the game alot. NS2 need to be Harder Better <b>Faster</b> Stronger. Not Softer Worse <b>Slower</b> Weaker :P Joke, but I think you get my point.
Also, in NS1 I felt it worked well. I always seemed to be able to get meds and ammo, even when it cost resources that would go for other things. The difference between great commanders and run of the mill commanders was their ability to ration ammo and meds properly and not just spam 15 of them in one spot. I personally liked this trade off myself.
Also, why should commanders get a separate support resource and why can't they use that resource to build other things since it is the exact same type of resource coming from the exact same source?
And currently, there is always a huge abundance of personal resources. This is causing a number of problems. Maybe this could be solved by just changing around the cost numbers, but it would seem the simpler and more straight forward answer would be to just get rid of team resources all together. A lot less to mess with, a lot easier to balance, and a lot simpler for players to understand.
We might have to just agree that we share different viewpoints and goals on this topic.
<!--quoteo(post=1850531:date=Jun 7 2011, 03:55 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 7 2011, 03:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1850531"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Like I said, if commanders had a reason to spend p-res on things, i.e if they had something they needed to use in limited amounts but which should not detract from the tech progression which team res is tied to (i.e, if the commander could build purely defensive structures) then I would support charging p-res for them, but as the commander doesn't, I don't agree that the commander needs p-res to be used for other things.
The only things I can support p-res being spent on are hydras and possibly whips/crags for aliens, and turrets/weapons/arcs for marines, those being things you need to buy but can't usually justify slowing your tech rate in order to get.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Chris is spot on with this. P.Res should only be spent on things that aren't involved in the progression of Tech.
I think the reason why many of us believed (including myself at some point) that Energy should be replaced with P.Res was because the Commander always had an excess of P.Res and not much to do with it. Now, however, Commanders can drop weapons and equipment, train MACs and ARCs, drop Med Packs, Ammo Packs, Catalyst Packs (as well as possibly Sentry Turrets and NanoGrid Defense) and will typically have less resources to do so with.
Additionally, IIRC the only thing on the Marine's side that has an Energy pool anymore is the Observatory. With each Observatory having it's own Energy pool, your capacity to use it's abilities scales with the number of Observatories built. If it's abilities were changed to P.Res costs, there would be less benefit to having more than one Observatory, other than nearby Line of Sight and the security of redundancy, lest they start implementing cooldowns.
At this point replacing ALL Energy costs with P.Res is about the equivalent of suggesting Marines should spend P.Res on Ammo... I mean, I guess we could, but it seems to detract more than enhance.